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Definition of "Commonly available"


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Pards,

 

At my most recent match on Sunday I overheard peanut gallery remarks about the ammunition that I was using in my revolvers (9mm Luger out of Ruger NMV convertibles and 40 S&W out of a Ruger OMV 38-40/40S&W convertible).  Ruger for many, many moons has made/continues to make convertible revolvers in 38/357 Mag that come with an extra 9mm Luger cylinder.  They also have made/continue to make 45 Colt revolvers with 45 ACP cylinder.  Other manufacturers/importers have made/continue to make similar conversion cylinders for their wares

 

With regard to the revolver ammunition requirement in firearms covenants section of the shooters handbook, it states that:

 

- Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber.

- Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers.  Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44- 40, and .45 Colt.

 

What is the definition of "commonly available"? 

 

If the revolver is capable of shooting a cartridge (9mm Luger, 40 S&W, 45 ACP), and said cartridge meets the requirements (centerfire, caliber, power, & loaded to proper power requirements) what's the call?  

 

Revolvers have been/are being made and are available for sale/order (if anyone can find anything in this "out-of-stock"/shortage world) in a pleathora of cartridges.  One doesn't have to look terribly hard to find revolvers capable of shooting 32 ACP (Nagants), 380 ACP (Uberti 1862 police conversion [revolver may have SASS issues...not sure]), 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, 45ACP.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213 said:

...If the revolver is capable of shooting a cartridge (9mm Luger, 40 S&W, 45 ACP), and said cartridge meets the requirements (centerfire, caliber, power, & loaded to proper power requirements) what's the call?   40 S&W, 10mm, 45ACP...

That call was made long ago.  Manufacturers don't make a lot of them, but they make them.  Now, say, a 5-shot 56-50 Spencer conversion custom made for a Colt Walker, would not be legal.

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Here we go.  :)

 

I remember a few years ago when the Uberti 1862 in .380 ACP came out.   A large, discussion, as to its legality ensued.  (I don't recall the final outcome.)  There was much disagreement as to if .380 was "a caliber commonly available in revolvers," when this particular pistol was the only one available in said caliber.   This, it was "common."

Oddly, by the "commonly available" criteria, .45 ACP would be legal.   It's been available in a plethora of revolvers ever since 1917.  

Personally, I don't have a problem with a revolver chambered for "ACP" style cartridges.  (Of which .40S&W is an example by type, if not name.)  You're still using a single action revolver, so I don't see what the big deal it.  But that's just my OPINION.  Those who make the RULES may not agree with me.  :)

 

But what about .45 Autorim?   It's a revolver cartridge, but is it common?  Not every modern made .45 ACP wheel gun will accept this cartridge anymore.

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Do not confuse caliber with cartridge.

 

Caliber is the internal diameter or bore of a gun barrel.

 

A cartridge is a casing containing a charge and a bullet or shot for small arms or an explosive charge for blasting.

 

For instance, 45 cowboy special is a cartridge based on 45 caliber.

 

45 Caliber is a common pistol caliber, even is 45 cowboy special is not a historical or common revolver cartridge

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2 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

That call was made long ago.  Manufacturers don't make a lot of them, but they make them.  Now, say, a 5-shot 56-50 Spencer conversion custom made for a Colt Walker, would not be legal.

 

 

Aw.....   I've been trying to figure out how to get a revolver in this caliber for years!   I asked Freedom Arms if they could do a custom for me, but they said no.  :(

But...  Using a Walker is an interesting idea.  Lotsa space to play with in that cylinder...

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1 hour ago, The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213 said:

If the revolver is capable of shooting a cartridge (9mm Luger, 40 S&W, 45 ACP), and said cartridge meets the requirements (centerfire, caliber, power, & loaded to proper power requirements) what's the call?  

 

Remember that Classic Cowboy has a special 'rimmed' cartridge requirement.

 

But, in categories other than that, no call.

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5 minutes ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

So a 45/70 pistol would be legal if it did not exceed 1000 fps?  Only had to shoot it one time around before I handed it back.

I'm thinking that by the rules, it would be the pistol but not the caliber that would make that one illegal.

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39 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

 In order to be used legally for SASS it has to be pistol caliber, a 45-70 is not pistol caliber.

kR

Hmmm

The folks at Magnum Research seem to disagree with you.

BFR - Big Frame Revolver | Magnum Research, Inc. | Desert Eagle pistols and BFR revolvers

 

If chambered in a pistol - the caliber becomes (in that instance) a pistol caliber.

A pistol is defined by its size and barrel length - not by the round it fires.

 

If the round was the determining factor - there would be no 22 Long RIFLE handguns.

No AR / AK pistols.

No 30 carbine Blackhawks (which, as legend says, was the first round fired in a SASS competition {tho would not be legal today because of caliber})

 

The 45-70 fired out of a single action revolver - and complying with FPS requirements would indeed be legal for our game.

The rules do not say anything about PISTOL caliber.

 

Revolver Calibers - Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. - Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers.  Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44- 40, and .45 Colt. - Standard velocity .22 caliber, rim-fire ammunition is allowed within the Buckaroo Category only. - Although the .32 caliber revolvers and .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers are legal, they may not be powerful enough to handle all reactive targets. - Modifying the cylinders of percussion revolvers by opening up the cap/nipple recess area to accommodate the use of all types of cappers is allowed.

 

And while not usually found knee deep on gun shop shelves - I have seen enough 45-70 revolvers to not consider them unicorns.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

...The 45-70 fired out of a single action revolver - and complying with FPS requirements would indeed be legal for our game.

The rules do not say anything about PISTOL caliber....

Even so, the point becomes moot since there is no SASS-legal revolver with a cylinder long enough to accept it. ;)

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

All my cartridge books refer to a 45-70 as a rifle cartridge. You can put it in a Canon and that doesn't make it a Canon round.

 

 

We usually agree - and it is unlike you to become pedantic over a definition.

But regardless of what a cartridge book says - the round does not know or care the platform that fires it.

 

A 45-70 Government (not rifle) fired out of a Derringer is still a 45-70; but no longer ONLY a rifle round NOW it is a Derringer round - out of a Pistol is still a 45-70; but no longer ONLY a rifle round NOW it is a pistol round.

 

A Chevrolet V8 pulled from a Corvette that now resides under the hood of a Jaguar or a Miata is still a Chevrolet V8 powerplant - but the moment it gets dropped into the engine compartment of something different - it is no longer ONLY a Corvette engine; its definition has to expand to account for the reality of its current placement.

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7 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

We usually agree - and it is unlike you to become pedantic over a definition.

But regardless of what a cartridge book says - the round does not know or care the platform that fires it.

 

A 45-70 Government (not rifle) fired out of a Derringer is still a 45-70; but no longer ONLY a rifle round NOW it is a Derringer round - out of a Pistol is still a 45-70; but no longer ONLY a rifle round NOW it is a pistol round.

 

A Chevrolet V8 pulled from a Corvette that now resides under the hood of a Jaguar or a Miata is still a Chevrolet V8 powerplant - but the moment it gets dropped into the engine compartment of something different - it is no longer ONLY a Corvette engine; its definition has to expand to account for the reality of its current placement.

My limited experience in the gun world tells me differently.

 

We would refer to a pistol chambered in a cartridge such as .223, 45-70 or 444 Marlin Express as a pistol chambered in a rifle caliber.

 

Headline for an article in Shootingillustrated.com (NRA): "14 New Rifle-Caliber Pistols for 2019"

 

Phantom

PS: It's okay to have disagreements :rolleyes:

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40 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

Amazing how this wandered from 9mm to 45-70

It diverged because of the OP's (and others), misunderstanding of the rule regarding "Calibers" (as opposed to Cartridges).

 

;)

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And, to be a bit inquisitive, for those worried about the power of a pistol chambered in 45-70...has anyone given thought to the fact that we don't bat an eyelash at folks shooting Walkers...which is about the equivalent of a 45-60?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

And, to be a bit inquisitive, for those worried about the power of a pistol chambered in 45-70...has anyone given thought to the fact that we don't bat an eyelash at folks shooting Walkers...which is about the equivalent of a 45-60?

 

 

Interesting...as I believe the Walkers produced approximately half the energy of the 45-60 (less velocity and far less projectile weight).

 

Where did you get your numbers from?

 

Phantom

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10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Interesting...as I believe the Walkers produced approximately half the energy of the 45-60 (less velocity and far less projectile weight).

 

Where did you get your numbers from?

 

Phantom

 

If I recall correctly, the standard load for a colt walker was a  .454 round ball over 60 grains of black powder, was it not?

 

I do know some preferred shooting 50 or 55 grains as well.

 

You are correct in that the 454 round ball is going to carry less mass, but there's nothing saying that you have to load up a BF bullet in a 45-70 either.

 

My memory on the subject could be a bit off, however.

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@Phantom, SASS #54973, or anyone else...I'm trying to remember the standard cavalry 1873 trapdoor load for 45-70. I remember it was a reduced charge over the standard 45-70 round. Wasn't it 55 grains of powder with a 300 grain bullet, or something like that? I want to say it was pushing 1100 fps or so in the carbine.

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It diverged because of the OP's (and others), misunderstanding of the rule regarding "Calibers" (as opposed to Cartridges).

 

;)

 

Please tell me where I have a misunderstanding of the rule since I am the OP.

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6 minutes ago, The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213 said:

 

Please tell me where I have a misunderstanding of the rule since I am the OP.

Are you not talking about Cartridges rather than Calibers?

 

Phantom

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8 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Are you not talking about Cartridges rather than Calibers?

 

Phantom

The rulebook that I quoted above in the initial post talks calibers then refers to cartridges.  The rule as its written is using/confusing caliber and cartridges.

 

My question (and the title of this thread) referred to the term "commonly available".  What is commonly available?  If one can obtain a new made gun that is capable of shooting multiple calibers (i.e. the Ruger Vaquero Convertible models) does that make said calibers/cartridges "commonly available"?  

 

To go to the point that other Pards have posted, Magnum Arms makes a 45-70 Single Action Revolver that one could order and have in a few days.  They've made said guns for years.  If the ammunition is loaded to SASS specs as written in the rulebook what prohibits it?

 

Its 2021, almost 2022.  Gun manufacturers have/continue to make SAA revolvers in multiple legal calibers and said calibers are capable of using an even wider variety of cartridges.  The rule as written basically allows anything, which I completely agree with.  Variety is the spice of life.  If the intent of the rule is to limit calibers/cartridges then I'm against it.  

 

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Maybe not helpful, but I have seen a handful of shooters using both 9mm and 45auto in both rifles and convertible Rugers.  When it was discussed everyone agreed that the rifles/revolvers were still the same caliber (i.e. diameter), so long as they were not shooting in a category that specifically required a "rimmed" cartridge why did it matter what case pushed the bullet?

 

It would be an easy argument to make that a 38/357/9mm is far more common and available in revolvers than traditional WCF cartridges such as 32-20 and 38-40.  Heck when I first started SASS in 2017 I tried ordering a pair of Ubertis in 44-40 from both Taylors and Cimarron and neither could get me a pair.

Edited by July Smith
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Okay...


There ARE revolvers and other pistols chambered for .45-70.

But I think in our hearts we all know that it is not a common revolver cartridge.   These are novelty guns that, while interesting, is not what our game is all about.

So, going back to things like 9mm, .380 and so forth.   Yes, these were created for autoloading handguns, not revolvers.   But they are common pistol rounds.  The fact that a few revolvers are chambered for them, and even a few specific revolvers that are useful for our game, I feel, makes them common revolver rounds as well.  If not "traditional" ones.   Outside of a category that requires "rimmed" cartridges, I think that various "autopistol" cartridges, if loaded to SASS acceptable levels, are just fine.   Again, my opinion, but you could argue that since only specific categories require rimmed ammo, other categories have have no such requirement.

I don't think we need to overthink this.  :)

 

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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2 hours ago, The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213 said:

 

 

To go to the point that other Pards have posted, Magnum Arms makes a 45-70 Single Action Revolver that one could order and have in a few days.  They've made said guns for years.  If the ammunition is loaded to SASS specs as written in the rulebook what prohibits it?

 

 

 

 

Have it in a few days seems to me as  "commonly available".  Thinking maybe, we have a winner. 

Really think we should use the standard,  "if John Wayne would use it, then it's OK" ;)

Edited by Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326
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The basic problem is listening to comments from “The Peanut Gallery” whom spend an entire day trying to find something to be critical of and to say, with great authority “You Can’t Do That” without the slightest understanding of the rules as specified I’m The Rule Book.

 

I’ve been playing this game for about 30 years and still get some things slightly wrong.  Most times the concencious of the Peanut Gallery is . . . . Wrong.

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2 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

To the OP, here you go. Click on "58 replies".

 

Keep in mind the bullets need to be lead, which may be hard to find. 

 

 

Good read with lots of good info.  My standard 9mm Luger reload uses a 121g lead conical bullet.  Works great in practically anything thats not a Glock (polygonal rifling).  Have like 20k of them loaded.

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The term "Commonly available" is mentioned four times in the manual - once as "Adjustable sight revolver REAR sights may be replaced with commonly available sights of the same size and type.", twice as "Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers.", and once as a definition in the Glossary of Terms as "Commonly available - obtainable by anyone given ordinary circumstances with ordinary means.", which leaves the terms "ordinary circumstances" and "ordinary means" up for debate. :lol:

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