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Pat Riot, SASS #13748

CCW Discussion, Suggestions, Bragging, Complaining, Discourse, Etcetera...

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Howdy,

First, let me start with this:

California, Canada, Australia, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Etcetera, Etc., etc. ALL SUCK in regards to gun control and CCW restrictions. If your input here is to brag about how great you have it and to belittle those of us that have to put up with gun control go somewhere else with your comments. 

 

Okay, okay...it’s okay to bash these places a little. Just don’t get all puffy chested about it...;)

 

Now starts the thread:           

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This all started on Dirty Dan Dawkins thread about “Gun Porn” (love that term) ;)

 

Hardpan and I were going back and forth about California’s gun roster and my mistaken belief that a Ruger LC380-CA was the size of an LCP. I am copying and pasting he last two parts of that conversation here:

 

E8CBB621-7CA6-4DBD-8E21-93A798D24AB3.thumb.jpeg.a55242ea400dc26214de3e8910b1c71f.jpeg

 

@Hardpan Curmudgeon 

posted this:

 

I have an LC380.  It's... okay.  A milquetoast pistola, but literally the only thing available when I bought it.  I'm hoping to find one of the LC9 conversion kits for it.  

 

I also have an LCRx .38 Spec.  No way did I want that thing in .357.  I will say that the sights are atrocious - it shoots low.  Very low.  The top of the front sight blade is literally about an eighth of an inch taller than the frame notch rear "sight."  It really wants a laser; on my Christmas list.

 

 

                                       1414618248_RugerLCRx.thumb.jpg.ac38193e718d4da739c52966884b963c.jpg

————————————————————————

 

Hardpan,

I did something interesting yesterday. I bought 5 different boxes of purely defensive ammunition for my S&W 442 and Model 60 Pro. I had done a similar test previously that didn’t include 4 of these different cartridges. (Like a dolt I didn’t take a photo of all the ammo boxes and cannot remember the details of each ammo brand / cartridge, like; weight, speed, etc...)

Anyway, the surprise came when I shot a round with both my 442 and my 60 Pro that I had passed on numerous times before.

The Federal Hydra Shok “Low Recoil” .38 Spl round.

 

This photo shows the results...oh, yeah...Disclaimer: this target was shot in bad range lighting with black iron sights and bad eyes. It was shot rapid fire with minimal aiming. I NEED A LASER GRIP TOO!

 

S&W 442 at 7 yards 

522BCA36-9EDA-4AE6-AA14-5716F5CC34E1.thumb.jpeg.bb6218f010c0dc1957b1b303a5544c96.jpeg

 

 

S&W 60 Pro at 7 yards

D06708FE-F890-4EC4-8734-52EC9E7C1615.thumb.jpeg.b94a6b87a540eee009f9eb20f9c45eec.jpeg

 

Forgive the messy writing. Both guns liked the Federal Low Recoil round. The 60 Pro also like the Speer Gold Dot “Duty” ammunition. 

 

The point here is, Hardpan, there may be a better ammo out there for your Ruger.

 

But I agree, a laser is in order. ;)

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Here in California you can only list 3 guns, by serial number, tat you can or will carry as a concealed weapon. This is not a new law. This has been a law in CA since the 60’s, I am told. Anyway, ON with the thread:

 

I was looking over my choices for 3 CCW guns I OWN over the past few days and mulling over which 3 would be best. Number 1 and 2 are decided. 

 

1. Glock 45 9mm with Tru-Glo TFX sighs. This gun will be a vehicle carry gun and OWB carry in winter with a jacket or heavy clothing.

 

2. S&W 442 .38 Special. I dearly love this gun. It was my very first S&W revolver. I bought it in 1997. It was a birthday gift from my wife. This is “my cold dead hands” gun. When I first bought it the safest place to be if I was shooting it was directly in front of me. :lol:

With practice we, my 442 and me, have become a much better in regards to accuracy. 

 

3.... Now here’s the clincher...these were my #3 choices

 

Remington RM380. 

I should state that I now have to shoot two-handed again. Bad arthritis in my right wrist and thumb joints dictate this. I am very good shooting the RM380 one handed, but not 2 handed. Also, the long trigger pull is quite annoying after getting used to DA pulls on revolvers and the trigger pull on my Glocks the RM380 doesn’t go bang where the others go bang in relation to the trigger pull. I do not want to have to think to remember that in a stressful situation. The RM380 is going up for sale.

 

Remington R51

This is only on this list because this needs to be said:

This gun should not, in my opinion, be a CCW gun.

The R51 is VERY ammo finicky. 

The trigger is SA only. There is no hammer lock safety or any real safety with a round in the chamber. Oh, it has a grip safety like a 1911. I could see holstering this gun and inadvertently bumping the very sensitive trigger and getting an AD (accidental discharge)

OFF THE LIST IT GOES!

 

Honestly, I am thinking about selling both Remingtons. Maybe I will put my S&W model 60 Pro on the list and just move on but I really like OLG’s suggestion about an S&W Shield. Maybe I will got to the range and rent one. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Pat Riot, SASS #13748
Grrrrrrrr.......

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You have to register your CCW piece (s) with the state? I presume qualify with each as well?

 

Curious... how common is this? I am guessing other states have this as well. Nothing like that in my state so we have decent flexibility if we suffer from gunaholic syndrome.

 

The G45 is an excellent gun. Carry will probably depend on body type. I can appendix carry a G45 but only if I don't ever need to bend over to tie my shoes. G19 is better, I find.

 

For "deeper" CCW the Shield is awesome.  Totally and comfortably disappears under everything and anything. Give it a serious chance... I think you'll like it. The small, thin newer Glocks are also all great choices. Lots of options for CCW.

 

Have fun shopping!

 

On edit, the Sig P238 is also a winner, in my book. Smaller yet than the Shield and .380 caliber but very, very concealable. Light weight and thin. Single action similar to a 1911 action too, if you like 1911s.

 

All the above mention are reliable firearms. Very accurate if the shooter does his part.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dantankerous
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14 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Howdy,

First, let me start with this:

California, Canada, Australia, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Etcetera, Etc., etc. ALL SUCK in regards to gun control and CCW restrictions. If your input here is to brag about how great you have it and to belittle those of us that have to put up with gun control go somewhere else with your comments. 

 

Okay, okay...it’s okay to bash these places a little. Just don’t get all puffy chested about it...;)

 

Now starts the thread:           

Not bragging about how good we have it in Arizona, nor am I belittling those who have to put up with gun control.

 

Just pointing out that after 40 years in California my wife and I threw it all up in the air and walked out from under it.  No bragging, no regrets, no reason to ever go back, even for a short visit.

 

C'mon over for a spell and see for yourself why.

Edited by Forty Rod SASS 3935
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For most of my law enforcement career I carried a Baby Browning as a back up gun and office gun.

In retirement I live in rural central Western Pa. with my location and life style I am more likely to need a gun to dispatch an injured deer than a person. I have carried everything possible as an off duty gun. Now I’m carrying what to me is the perfect carry gun. I have settled on a Ruger LCP with a Crimson Trace laser. If I’m going somewhere where I might need more firepower I just won’t go 

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33 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

You have to list your CCW piece (s) with the state? I presume qualify with each as well?

 

Curious... how common is this? I am guessing other states have this as well. Nothing like that in my state so we have decent flexibility if we suffer from gunaholic syndrome.

Yep, we have to list the carry guns. :angry:

And, yes, you do have to qualify with them, hence the reason I hesitate using the RM380.

 

When I went for my CCW in NC you have to “Qualify” with “a handgun” but it was more to show that you could shoot. It didn’t have to be your carry gun.

In Oregon you didn’t have to shoot to qualify...though I believe out of the 30 people in my CHL class I would have lived to have seen how some of them would do in a qualification. :blink: Whew, some of those people scared me...

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I do love my S&W double-action revolvers, but my CCW is the ugly, utterly reliable S&W Shield in 9MM.  And in Arizona, no concealed carry permits are required.  If you can legally own a firearm, you can legally carry a firearm.

 

da8Jel.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Disclaimer: this target was shot in bad range lighting with black iron sights and bad eyes. It was shot rapid fire with minimal aiming.

 

 

In other words, other than being at a range, pretty much realistic conditions for a DGU - bad lights, fast shooting, and your Mk. 1 eyeball.  

When my wife worked at a LGS/indoor range I could sometimes use the range that was used mostly for police training and qualifications, and for one of the shooting clubs to do some IDPA type stuff.  Since I was the only one on the range I could go in front of the usual firing line.  I'd hang a target, turn my back on it, set a timer and spend the time blindly running the target forward and back so I didn't know how close it was.  When the timer went off turn, draw and fire.  Best I could do on my own.  I found that I was usually point shooting.  One time I found myself with the muzzle about an inch from the target.  

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In Texas we do not have to list the weapon we carry after we attend an 8 hr class and demonstrate proficiency with a weapon. Some people borrow a firearm to shoot and later after getting the carry permit go buy a gun.

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Wal, Shux, Pat!  Those targets are pretty much "Minute of Bad Guy" groups...!  ^_^

 

By the way, CCW rules do vary by county in this state.  In Fresno County, for instance, you are limited to three handguns.  In Madera County, immediately to the north of Fresno and where I live, you can start with five and add more for a total of ten.  Qualifying is by type; if you qualify with a specific revolver, you may add other revolvers without qualifying.  Same with pistols.  If you live in San Francisco, unless you're a crook, a celebrity, or named Feinstein,  fuggedaboutit.  -_-

 

Speaking of which - cannot verify, but I have heard accounts of people lawfully carrying with CCW permits issued by other counties [which should be honored by SF] having their firearm confiscated by the SF police, to be returned to the owner upon their leaving the city.

 

Here are some interesting - and kinda cool - FAQ's from the local Sheriff's Department CCW information page:  :)


 

Quote

 

How many handguns can I put on my permit?

You may list up to five handguns on your initial application. You may add up to a total of 10 handguns to your permit after it has been issued. Most people will not practice with too many handguns though, so it may be a better idea to only list and carry a few handguns that you are proficient with.

 

Does my handgun have to be on the California approved “safe gun” list if I want to put it on my CCW?

No

 

Can I carry high capacity magazines in my CCW handgun?

As long as you had the magazines legally in California before 1-1-2000, they are legal to possess and you can carry them with their full capacity in your CCW handgun. “High capacity magazines” (more than 10 rounds) have been generally illegal to obtain in California since 1-1-00

 

What is the minimal standard for the Good Cause Statement?

The basic principal that must be articulated is for defense of myself and my family against threats of serious injury or death from an assailant. There are numerous different ways to express this concept, but this is the basis for the “good cause” to issue a CCW

 

 

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Well, I just cleaned both Remingtons, the R51 and the RM380. They are both going to the LGS for consignment selling. They are both a PITA to get back together. The RM380 is a minor pain. The R51 is a major pain. I don’t need the hassle. 

 

I am am headed to the range with my Glock for some fun. While there I plan to rent an S&W Shield and give it a go. 

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4 minutes ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

Wal, Shux, Pat!  Those targets are pretty much "Minute of Bad Guy" groups...!  ^_^

 

By the way, CCW rules do vary by county in this state.  In Fresno County, for instance, you are limited to three handguns.  In Madera County, immediately to the north of Fresno and where I live, you can start with five and add more for a total of ten.  Qualifying is by type; if you qualify with a specific revolver, you may add other revolvers without qualifying.  Same with pistols.  If you live in San Francisco, unless you're a crook, a celebrity, or named Feinstein,  fuggedaboutit.  -_-

 

Speaking of which - cannot verify, but I have heard accounts of people lawfully carrying with CCW permits issued by other counties [which should be honored by SF] having their firearm confiscated by the SF police, to be returned to the owner upon their leaving the city.

 

Here are some interesting - and kinda cool - FAQ's from the local Sheriff's Department CCW information page:  :)


 

 

 

Yeah, in Orange County you are limited to 3 but I hear that if you need to remove a gun to add a gun you can easily do that.

 

”Minute of bad guy” is okay but I like minute of immediate incapacitation zone better. ;)

 

The only way one could even get me in San Francisco is through serious bribery and I will not go easily. My wife and daughter got me to go there 3 years ago. That is a very “special” place. Could not wait to get out of there.

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 Curious again...

 

Pat, in California is a CCW'r restricted to carrying only one gun at a time?

 

 

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So Pat... other than the "reassembly pain," what's your assessment of the R51?  :)

 

I've been intrigued by it - after the abject failure and recall of the original issue, it does look interesting.  

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If you are a Missouri resident and qualify to purchase/own a gun, you may carry CCW within the state only. If you go through the CCW class you may carry outside the state in other state's which recognizes the Missouri CCW permit. Missouri is also an open carry state for once again those Missouri residents which qualify to purchase/own a gun. I carry the Taurus 605 Protector Poly. Love the front sight and a good shooter.

 

Taurus_605_2-605021PLY_L-1200x924.png

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Washington remains a "shall issue" state for CPL-- Concealed Pistol License. All that is required is fingerprinting and background check. There is no qualification requirement, and no restriction on or any 'listing' of guns one can carry.

 

This has been the case at least since 1959. I anticipate it will become a target of cybermillionaire anti's who funded our recent 'assault rifle' initiative-- which passed. But, not yet anyway.

 

CPL is good for 5 years, then renewal is straightforward, just fill out the renewal request with modest fee.

 

I generally carry a Ruger LCR .38 spl. +P and, in the woods, a Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 spl.

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23 minutes ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

So Pat... other than the "reassembly pain," what's your assessment of the R51?  :)

 

I've been intrigued by it - after the abject failure and recall of the original issue, it does look interesting.  

Honestly, it is a unique and good looking pistol.

The mechanics of it are very unique. They also make it a b**** to disassemble and reassemble.

I can shoot mine really well. It is an accurate and consistent pistol.

VERY ammo finicky. Round nose hollow points or FMJ bullets only. Conical bullets get hung up on the mag lips. 

The trigger is single action.

There is no safety other than the grip safety. I wouldn’t carry the gun with s loaded chamber. It’s like walking around with your single action revolver cocked. It does have an internal hammer. It is not striker fired.

Oh, almost forgot. It will not cycle easily with a closed slide after inserting a full magazine. That is a problem. 

 

It’s a neat little range gun and fun to shoot but it’s not a carry gun in my opinion.

 

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I see your point(s).  I just watched a couple of videos... it looks good, and evidently is quite accurate, but as one fella said, "this is a gun I'd like my enemy to have in a gunfight."  :(

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

I see your point(s).  I just watched a couple of videos... it looks good, and evidently is quite accurate, but as one fella said, "this is a gun I'd like my enemy to have in a gunfight."  :(

 

I don’t know about wanting my enemy to have an R51. Mine is a shooter. It just has some quirks. 

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I went to my LGS and discussed selling my Remingtons. He basically said that I couldn’t get more than a couple of hundred bucks a piece. I did a little research and he is off by 50 or so dollars but after talking a bit I decided to keep them.

 

I put some Remington Ultimate Defense through the RM380 and, as Hardpan says, it “shoots minute of bad guy” do the RM380 will be gun #3 on my CCW permit.

 

In addition I got to shoot an S&W Shield today at the range. Nice gun. I also shot a Glock 26 to compare it to the Shield. Also a nice gun. 

 

I can see why everyone seems to like the Shield. I shot it well. I cannot Place it but there is something I do not like about the grip. It seems narrow to me. Maybe it’s because I shoot Glocks and revolvers. 

I will say that I put 20 rounds through it wit 1 second between shots and all 20 rounds could be covered with a small pie tin at 7 yards. 

 

My carry guns, at this moment, will be:

1. Glock 45

2. S&W 442

3. Remington.380

 

I did consider my S&W 60 Pro as the 3rd gun. I will have to take the 60 Pro and the RM380 to the range and do some shooting with them together with premium ammo and just see how I feel after.

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I was talking to the LGS manager the other day and he asked how that Sig P938 I bought was working out. I’m afraid I sounded like a Sig salesman for the next 5 minutes. :D

If I had to be limited to 3 ccw guns it would be my Colt 1911, S&W 442, and the P938.

Edited by Utah Bob #35998
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20 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

if I had to be limited to 3 ccw guns it would be my Colt 1911, S&W 442, and the P938.

 

The Sig P938, that is the 9mm big brother to the P238, correct? Is this like the 1911 in that you need to keep the hammer cocked with the thumb safety on with a round in the chamber?

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40 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

 

The Sig P938, that is the 9mm big brother to the P238, correct? Is this like the 1911 in that you need to keep the hammer cocked with the thumb safety on with a round in the chamber?

Yes. One nice feature is that you can cycle the slide while the safety’s on. It is dead bang accurate and has night sights. I have a Kimber micro and the Sig beats it hands down.

Edited by Utah Bob #35998
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So Pat... was that Shield you fired a 9mm?  I hope!  Must've been, if you liked it.  :)

 

Couple of years ago the Kid bought one in "Forty Short and Wimpy."  Finally admitted to "buyer's remorse."  That thing has the most atrocious spring ever... I could hardly grip the slide enough to rack it.  I even called S&W to ask if that was normal.  The fella I spoke with said it was; encouraged shooting "at least ten boxes before sending it back; that oughtta loosen it up some."

 

Well... the kid did just that.  It did loosen up some.  But he stuck it in the safe and went back and bought a Springfield 1911 and the cutest li'l stainless SIG P238.  That thing's built like a Swiss watch; and it's a good thing it's stainless, 'cuz his old man tends to drool over it.  ^_^

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7 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Yes. One nice feature is that you can cycle the slide while the safety’s on. It is dead bang accurate and has night sights. I have a Kimber micro and the Sig beats it hands down.

 

That's a good recommendation.  I have the P238, and have thought about the 9; the only thing holding me back is that I own no other 9mm, and I'm not real eager to add another set of dies to the reloading budget.

 

Despite it's gun-unfriendly reputation, MA is not overly restrictive on CCW.  Once you have a permit, there are no qualification requirements and no listing of which guns are covered by the permit - add on and subtract freely and without paperwork.  We do have a somewhat limited list of approved guns, but you can probably find something that satisfies you.  My two carry guns are a Para Slim Hawg in .45ACP and the P238 in .380; the P938 matches the 1911 controls on those guns, and would fill out the trio nicely, I think.

 

LL

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I will admit I sometimes feel a little privileged living in Ohio. To obtain my Concealed Carry License, I only needed to show them my DD214, pay for the picture ($5.00) and fill out the paperwork for the background check. On occasion, being a veteran has it's perks. The funny thing was, when I called and asked, the deputy indicated I needed paperwork indicating I was honorably discharged, with firearms training. I grabbed my DD214, certificate and "Additional Duty Orders" showing my training and naming me as a Range Safety NCO, my concealed carry license from my deployment, and a couple of other things. I got there, the deputy plucked out the DD214, said "Yep, this is what I need. Has your discharge and marksmanship badges." Yeah, I felt like an idiot.

 

Limited to three guns? Hmmm...

 

PPK/S

PX-4 Storm

And for now, Springfield Armory 1911A1

Edited by DocWard
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5 hours ago, Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 said:

 

That's a good recommendation.  I have the P238, and have thought about the 9; the only thing holding me back is that I own no other 9mm, and I'm not real eager to add another set of dies to the reloading budget.

 

Despite it's gun-unfriendly reputation, MA is not overly restrictive on CCW.  Once you have a permit, there are no qualification requirements and no listing of which guns are covered by the permit - add on and subtract freely and without paperwork.  We do have a somewhat limited list of approved guns, but you can probably find something that satisfies you.  My two carry guns are a Para Slim Hawg in .45ACP and the P238 in .380; the P938 matches the 1911 controls on those guns, and would fill out the trio nicely, I think.

 

LL

I was also reluctant having gotten rid of my 9mm pistols and dies several years ago. But I decided that I would be more comfortable with performance of a 9 than the  .380 I have had for a few decades. 9mm ammo for practice is very cheap these days. I may get some dies anyway, just because I enjoy reloading.

People told me I wouldn't enjoy shooting the 938 due to the snappy recoil but I put a set of Hogue grips on it and I don’t find it uncomfortable at all. And I’m not a recoil junky 

C18B74B6-19E5-4B3B-AA85-26CE0447248F.jpeg

Edited by Utah Bob #35998
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1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

 

C18B74B6-19E5-4B3B-AA85-26CE0447248F.jpeg

That is a good lookin’ shooter, Bob. I like it. :wub:

 

I checked and the P938 is not available to us as a “on the Roster” gun. That is what they call the DOJ’s “approved” list. One can find them “off roster” but most are for “Law Enforcement Only” purchasers.

 

6 hours ago, Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 said:

That's a good recommendation.  I have the P238, and have thought about the 9; the only thing holding me back is that I own no other 9mm, and I'm not real eager to add another set of dies to the reloading budget.

Loophole, be careful with using reloads in a defensive gun. You could be made to look like a villain bent on killing through the black art of the mysterious practice of conjuring up ammunition to cause maximum pain and suffering.  I kid, but a plaintiff’s attorney or a DA could make it look like you were doing something nefarious when reloading your ammo that caused excessive pain and suffering to your “victim”.

 

Also, if you are using a known self defense load forensic techs and scientists can corroborate your story of how far you were away from an attacker by the powder residue and the bullet’s condition if you can talk them the manufacturer of the ammunition used.

 

I have heard these things through a couple of different CCW and defensive firearms courses.

 

I always use factory ammo in my carry and home protection guns.

 

Just a thought 

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Can anyone tell me for certain if my Arizona CCW will allow me to carry in Las Vegas, NV?  That fair city hasn't responded to several inquiries.

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2 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

Can anyone tell me for certain if my Arizona CCW will allow me to carry in Las Vegas, NV?  That fair city hasn't responded to several inquiries.

Las Vegas has different ccw regs as I recall.

 

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2 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

That is a good lookin’ shooter, Bob. I like it. :wub:

 

I checked and the P938 is not available to us as a “on the Roster” gun. That is what they call the DOJ’s “approved” list. One can find them “off roster” but most are for “Law Enforcement Only” purchasers.

 

Loophole, be careful with using reloads in a defensive gun. You could be made to look like a villain bent on killing through the black art of the mysterious practice of conjuring up ammunition to cause maximum pain and suffering.  I kid, but a plaintiff’s attorney or a DA could make it look like you were doing something nefarious when reloading your ammo that caused excessive pain and suffering to your “victim”.

 

Also, if you are using a known self defense load forensic techs and scientists can corroborate your story of how far you were away from an attacker by the powder residue and the bullet’s condition if you can talk them the manufacturer of the ammunition used.

 

I have heard these things through a couple of different CCW and defensive firearms courses.

 

I always use factory ammo in my carry and home protection guns.

 

Just a thought 

Bummer. It’s a sweet shooter.

I carry factory ammo in my defense guns but reloads for training or I’d go broke. 

As far as the myth of getting hammered for handloads, it’s pretty much a myth but defense trainers like it.

I suspect maybe it comes from police officers using non issued ammo in their duty weapons, like when we were using lead rn and hollow points came out back in the 70s. The media called them, “...dum dums, banned by the Geneva Convention!” 

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3 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Loophole, be careful with using reloads in a defensive gun. You could be made to look like a villain bent on killing through the black art of the mysterious practice of conjuring up ammunition to cause maximum pain and suffering.  I kid, but a plaintiff’s attorney or a DA could make it look like you were doing something nefarious when reloading your ammo that caused excessive pain and suffering to your “victim”.

 

Also, if you are using a known self defense load forensic techs and scientists can corroborate your story of how far you were away from an attacker by the powder residue and the bullet’s condition if you can talk them the manufacturer of the ammunition used.

 

I have heard these things through a couple of different CCW and defensive firearms courses.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

As far as the myth of getting hammered for handloads, it’s pretty much a myth but defense trainers like it.

Pat, not to bust your chops, but the ONLY case where this raised it's ugly head is a case Massad Ayoob likes to quote to prove that he is the All Knowing Professional Expert Witness. It stems from a case where a husband gave SEVERAL different reloads for her revolver and something Bad happened.

If there has been another case where this was pertinent. I'd be interested to hear, (read) about it.

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30 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

 

Pat, not to bust your chops, but the ONLY case where this raised it's ugly head is a case Massad Ayoob likes to quote to prove that he is the All Knowing Professional Expert Witness. It stems from a case where a husband gave SEVERAL different reloads for her revolver and something Bad happened.

If there has been another case where this was pertinent. I'd be interested to hear, (read) about it.

It was taught in CCW training. I have no reference but I could see someone using it against somebody. I did not know about the Massad Ayoob article / case.

 

Since government and some types of people are so litigious these days I err on the side of caution.

 

Oh, forgot to add that I don’t put a lot of stock in Massad Ayoob’s opinions.

 

Thank you for setting the record straight. :)

Edited by Pat Riot, SASS #13748

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