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Snakebite

Editorial (update)

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1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Because there are people that should not be moving and shooting, but will because they are allowed. IMO this is not a rule that needs changing. We aren't going to attract the young folks by making our game more like WG3. Like was stated by Snakebite above, leave it be.

 

Shooting and moving is not making CAS into W3G.  We shot on the move with no issues back in the day, that is until the safety police decided it wasn't safe.  The people that are unsafe moving and shooting are also likely borderline unsafe without movement.

 

A big step forward would be to eliminate the basketball rule.  I'll go out on a limb and say almost everyone can take a step or two without being unsafe.l

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On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 11:49 AM, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Captain Bill, in fairness to your experience you never got to shoot the game that San Quinton is talking about. I think one thing that both San Quinton and Snakebite are missing is that many current active shooters never got to experience the way it was done. I know that at our monthly just this last Saturday out of nearly 50 shooters 70% never got to throw a knife, shoot a real bonus, shoot seated etc. To turn the clock back would be a very large challenge and it would have to be done carefully and in small doses. The idea and discussion is fine. But nothing gets done without action. The one common theme in this game in my experience is that if you want something to change YOU have to make it happen. Lately I've been thinking a lot about the old days and the game I fell in love with. So much has changed. Some of which we will never see again. I don't know what the exact answer is, or if there really even is a question. I miss the old days but not enough to try and turn the current game on its head. I'm just as excited to wake up and shoot a monthly match as I was when I started, and that really has nothing to do with the shooting. Mileage will always vary. 

Hear, hear! Totally agree!    SCJ

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Today there are only a couple people setting up matches at each club. Setting all the fun stuff up like 20 years ago took a lot of time and planning.

Considering many clubs are just one or two members from closing shop the meat and potatoes is in the shooting. I can set up a match (steel, stands, and tables) rather quickly. With limited manpower enjoy what you can. If you don't like the lack of fun come on out and give the match directors a hand including writing up a bunch of fun stages. Our local matches have plenty of movement, no boring S&D stages around here. There's a big difference between fun and goofy, I never enjoyed having to wear a sweaty giant foam hat that many others had worn before me,  riding a stick horse, or wearing aprons. I did enjoy shooting bow and arrows, throwing knives and hawks, dragging dummies, carrying saddles and gold bags, rolling wagon wheels,  standing on a bed spring, shooting from a moving ore cart, etc.

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We're not going to attract young people to CAS--by which I mean the game as we know it.  We would have to turn it into something we don't recognize.  Yeah, I know, I'm being negative, but I'm right.  They couldn't care less.  Attracting young shooters is a fantasy that we should abandon, and concentrate on older people who have the means and the desire to get into it.  Kids shoot when it is cool to hang out with mom and dad or grandma and grandpa.  After that, forget it.  

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We have 8 bays that would allow down range movement. Three of them you would need to bring a canteen of water with you. Ha!

The movement idea is by no means new... I remember lots of down range movement on one particular stage at the Old Stampede. They had you walking out through the desert shooting at various targets with a shotgun. I saw some really scary things when so many "Unskilled" people tried to race through the course of fire while shooting.  I also remember when they allowed moving and shooting by declaring a very large "Shooting Box" at the early Western States Championships. My best friend, Sudden, was running down range, tripped and fell, his loaded shotgun was in battery and his finger in the trigger guard and the muzzle pointing back toward the crowd! That was all the proof that I needed to not support moving and shooting in this game. By the way, Sudden was a very good IPSC shooter and a superb CAS. SASS put a stop to those activities at both matches.  This was before the so called Basket ball rule was put into effect. If a local club wants to do it, they should drop their SASS affiliation and do what ever they want. As long as they stay in SASS, they need to follow the rules that they agreed to follow. At this point I prefer to shoot at a SASS affiliated club. I don't expect that to change as long as SASS is true to the game.   

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12 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Today there are only a couple people setting up matches at each club. Setting all the fun stuff up like 20 years ago took a lot of time and planning.

Considering many clubs are just one or two members from closing shop the meat and potatoes is in the shooting. I can set up a match (steel, stands, and tables) rather quickly. With limited manpower enjoy what you can. If you don't like the lack of fun come on out and give the match directors a hand including writing up a bunch of fun stages. Our local matches have plenty of movement, no boring S&D stages around here. There's a big difference between fun and goofy, I never enjoyed having to wear a sweaty giant foam hat that many others had worn before me,  riding a stick horse, or wearing aprons. I did enjoy shooting bow and arrows, throwing knives and hawks, dragging dummies, carrying saddles and gold bags, rolling wagon wheels,  standing on a bed spring, shooting from a moving ore cart, etc.

Assassin puts on one of the best shoots around... Definitely  not boring in fact if your cardio is not up to part this is not the shoot for you LOL. In all seriousness he is 100% correct if you want to change a way a shoot is run, or add some "flavor" to a shoot STEP UP and start helping out or take over as MD for a year or too.  Do you if people like it you will be successful. So many people have powerful words but no actions. We need positive actions to keep this sport going. 

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42 minutes ago, Howlin' Wolf said:

Assassin puts on one of the best shoots around... Definitely  not boring in fact if your cardio is not up to part this is not the shoot for you LOL. In all seriousness he is 100% correct if you want to change a way a shoot is run, or add some "flavor" to a shoot STEP UP and start helping out or take over as MD for a year or too.  Do you if people like it you will be successful. So many people have powerful words but no actions. We need positive actions to keep this sport going. 

Those are some kind words. Thanks, Howlin' Wolf. This year I'll write up a stage just for you with a whole bunch of movement, most of those at HOW are just normal

movement stages for around here. The only way I can get close to Cobra Cat is to get him winded. I'll be shooting Senior this year, won't have you crawling up my back.

Forgot you got them new spectacles, I'm gonna have to go to that optometrist myself I might need glasses soon. Has Billy Gibbons asked for his beard back?

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Ha the beard is not going anywhere.. and the specs just make the beard more distinguished.

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Did not read all the posts but...………….

 

San Quentin, do you remember us throwing a hat to the top of the building to hang it on  a peg for a bonus? Now that prompted post match conversation :) 

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The most popular shooting sports today are those that require the use of tactics (NOT TACTICAL!)  IE, they give you a problem to solve.  There is nothing like this in the now standard 10-10-4 stage that rules SASS shooting.  A little movement, the use of no hit targets, different shooting positions,(always with an option for those physically unable to perform)  Optional bonus targets, hostage targets, the occasional reactive target.  A prop that gives the option of bracing the rifle for a slightly farther target.  A 6 round handgun engagement, when do  you load that one round?  There is nothing wrong with making folks think a bit.  Even so simple as not assigning a target order.  "Shoot them anyway you want, as long as you hit each one twice"   More shooting positions can actually result in fewer targets to set, as each position presents the same targets in a new way, if properly planned.  "Must hit" scoring, where misses are not counted, only hits.  Missing is it's own penalty.  There are many simple things that can be done, if Match directors do not operate under a perceived 10-10-4 requirement.

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15 minutes ago, Sgt. Drydock #1248 said:

The most popular shooting sports today are those that require the use of tactics (NOT TACTICAL!)  IE, they give you a problem to solve.  There is nothing like this in the now standard 10-10-4 stage that rules SASS shooting.  A little movement, the use of no hit targets, different shooting positions,(always with an option for those physically unable to perform)  Optional bonus targets, hostage targets, the occasional reactive target.  A prop that gives the option of bracing the rifle for a slightly farther target.  A 6 round handgun engagement, when do  you load that one round?  There is nothing wrong with making folks think a bit.  Even so simple as not assigning a target order.  "Shoot them anyway you want, as long as you hit each one twice"   More shooting positions can actually result in fewer targets to set, as each position presents the same targets in a new way, if properly planned.  "Must hit" scoring, where misses are not counted, only hits.  Missing is it's own penalty.  There are many simple things that can be done, if Match directors do not operate under a perceived 10-10-4 requirement.

Are these things that you write into your stages? Cool - where do you shoot?

 

Phantom

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http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,61401.0.html

 

The SASS club here lets me write match's now and then.  If you want to travel, you can be my guest for a guaranteed entry at the above.  Might as well see it all done.  The picture below is from Craig CO last year.  Cowboy guns, gear and dress welcome.

 

 

IMG_0177.JPG

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1 hour ago, Sgt. Drydock #1248 said:

The most popular shooting sports today are those that require the use of tactics (NOT TACTICAL!)  IE, they give you a problem to solve.  There is nothing like this in the now standard 10-10-4 stage that rules SASS shooting.  A little movement, the use of no hit targets, different shooting positions,(always with an option for those physically unable to perform)  Optional bonus targets, hostage targets, the occasional reactive target.  A prop that gives the option of bracing the rifle for a slightly farther target.  A 6 round handgun engagement, when do  you load that one round?  There is nothing wrong with making folks think a bit.  Even so simple as not assigning a target order.  "Shoot them anyway you want, as long as you hit each one twice"   More shooting positions can actually result in fewer targets to set, as each position presents the same targets in a new way, if properly planned.  "Must hit" scoring, where misses are not counted, only hits.  Missing is it's own penalty.  There are many simple things that can be done, if Match directors do not operate under a perceived 10-10-4 requirement.

I followed your link and read the description of your match. It sounds like it would be a lot of fun! 

 

Having said that it doesn’t sound anything like a ‘cowboy’ match so I’m not sure your concerns about  how SASS matches are currently shot has anything to do with how you create stages for your matches. Apples and oranges, SASS matches aren’t like Steel Challenge either, nor should they be.

 

Respectfully I think your concerns are not well informed.  Here in Georgia we have no hit targets, just last month we had a swinging no hit target that intermittently blocked the targets we were supposed to hit. This past Saturday we had reactive targets and we often have round count stages. Those fall anywhere on the spectrum of 10-10-4, 11-10-4, 10-10-2, 10-10-6, 10-10-8, and 10-10-?.  I’m not aware of any MD’s who feel they have to stick to 10-10-4 exclusively.  We also often have stages that allow the shooter to decide where to start and what the shooting order will be. These are ‘problems to solve.’

 

I travel to shoot fairly frequently and encounter these type stages often, so they’re not limited to Georgia.

 

SASS is a ‘fantasy’ western type match sport, yours sounds more like 19th century  military reenactment. Nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with SASS for not being like that.

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Not really.  I see a lot of 10-10-4.  Sounds like your club does a lot of what I was speaking of.  But let me give an example of a SASS stage my local club shot.  (the Military match was an extreme example, but I thought Phantom would enjoy it)

 

You are Yosemite Sam, campaigning against Bugs for Mayor.  Your line "Well, I speak Loud, and I carry a BIGGER stick!"  At the beep, standing behind a fence, draw your handguns (Per your class) and engage 5 handgun targets in any order, hitting each one twice,  Holster, step to the jail window, retrieve your staged shotgun, and Thru the window knockdown 3 shotgun targets.  Stepping thru the door, down your shotgun, retrieve your staged rifle, and dump 10 rounds on a single target.  Except!  As Yosemite Sam, the studio won't actually let you shoot Bugs (a doll hung just in  front of the target) so you must shoot around Bugs! 5 second penalty for making the bunny dance.  End of the day, fast time gets the shot up Bugs doll as a trophy.  

 

Very simple.  A little movement, some thought, and using both sights on the rifle, not just the front.  Do you go for speed against Bugs, and risk the penalty, or do you aim careful?  What order is faster for you with the handguns?   Which trigger fires which barrel on the clock?

 

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On 1/6/2019 at 6:32 PM, Snakebite said:

The editorial in the January 2019 Cowboy Chronicle by Pataha, SASS #5191 Is one of the best things that I've read in the Chronicle in many years. I've been beating the drum for such action a very long time. It is indeed a FACT that the game HAS been directed by the Shooting elite.  MANY of the rules that we have today were put into place in a failed attempt to stop the game from gong where it has gone. We have come to a point where we put more emphasis on who can move their hand the fastest than we do on anything else in the game. We can NOT go back to the beginning, and I would not even want to try, it simply would not work, but we can learn from the past and inject the best parts of the past into today's game. GAME.... that is what this is suppose to be, A GAME. For years it was the most Wonderful and Fun Game that I have ever been a part of. When some Hotdog can shoot a stage in 12 sec, there isn't much game playing going on. It is going to take an amalgamation of the past with the present if we are to have a bright future.

 

Snakebite

 I've been shooting for 21 years as a member of SASS. I agree 100% with you Mr. Snakebite!

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I feel I must expand just a bit.  I never said, or meant, that ALL SASS matchs are 10-10-4.  But a depressingly large number are, from what I've seen the last 20 years.  If yours is not, and it sounds thus, congratulations!

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I see a lot of 10-10-4 too, but why is that bad?

 

For example Saturday we had a 10-10-4, shooters choice, rifle not last, start at either station. Station 1 shotgun and rifle engage shotgun targets till down, with rifle engage targets 1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1 from station two engage pistol targets same as rifle. Stations were about 10 yards apart.

 

We had a 10-10-4 stage where you started seated in a buggy reins in one hand, the other on ‘Maggie’ all guns staged in front of you, shooting order was shooter’s choice, rifle not last. Shooter could stand or remain seated, if you stood you could holster pistols, stay seated and you had to restage them. If you stood the guns were at knee level. The best approach I saw was a shooter who picked up both pistols as he was standing, holstered one and shot the other. That saved him one squat to get a gun. Others stayed seated. I stood.

 

We had a 10-10-? with 4 stationary targets and 6 knockdowns, relatively small. With rifle engage all targets with one round each, any order, with pistols Nevada sweep stationary targets (9 yards out) engage any remaining knockdown targets with shotgun. The knockdowns were not all in a row so the shooter had to determine what the most efficient pattern was. 

 

I could go on and mention the split shotgun 11-10-6 with a far 11th target.

 

Try shooting the chicken stage at Come in Atcha. Yeah, it was 10-10-4, but split pistols, split shotgun, and most of those chickens were very small. A blast to shoot, but challenging for sure. You better have good transitions cause there were 4 of them and four shooting stations.

 

SASS is NOT all 10-10-4 stand and deliver pistol rifle shotgun double tap Nevada sweep and hopefully never will be.

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I don't personally see anything wrong with the 10-10-4. It provides plenty of shooting, and give a good basic foundation. Some variation is of course nice, but a constant variation is really not needed IMO. It is what is being done on the stage that makes all the difference in the world. Stand and Deliver on a stage is just fine...… ON A STAGE, but I sure would not want to attend a match that was full of such type stages. I always liked the way Mescalero did the State match. He always had one Shotgun challenge stage, one Pistol challenge stage, and one Rifle challenge stage, each of which featured their respective firearm. You just can't beat a good mix. A heavy Game playing stage, Like the Chinese Laundry,  a bonus stage, a Shooter's choice stage, yata, yata… but never a whole match of just one things.... mixe it up.  I'm starting to see some real progress by some clubs with their effort to bring back a bit of Game Playing, remember, A BIT... don't go too far or it could ruin the soup. I see it my area, and it sounds like it is re-catching on in other parts of the county too. I'm very pleased to see and hear about this. I am hoping that folks are discovering or re-discovering the fun in CAS and in playing the Game. Sure sounds like they are doing it with their Chicken Pluckin. Keep it up. :) 

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Snakebite - you're great at not tooting your own horn, so I'll toot it for you. I love the creativity you exhibit in the scenarios you and your team create at the annual shootout at Fort Miller put on by your Kings River Regulators club. A real mix of everything; shooters that move, targets that move, mine cars that move shooters, gates and doors to shoot open, pouring drinks, and a few stand-and-delivers. An excellent mix of challenges and fun that provides the shooter an incredible shooting experience and a very global way to compete.

 

My hat's off to you, sir!

 

RR

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On 1/14/2019 at 7:01 PM, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

We're not going to attract young people to CAS--by which I mean the game as we know it.  We would have to turn it into something we don't recognize.  Yeah, I know, I'm being negative, but I'm right.  They couldn't care less.  Attracting young shooters is a fantasy that we should abandon, and concentrate on older people who have the means and the desire to get into it.  Kids shoot when it is cool to hang out with mom and dad or grandma and grandpa.  After that, forget it.  

Truer words were never spoken. Attracting large numbers of young people to our sport is fantasy. They don’t want to dress the part, they say it looks  stoopid. Do away with the costuming, single action revolvers, lever rifles and SxS shotguns and replace them with semi auto rifles, handguns and shotguns, sneakers, ball caps and cargo pants or cutoffs  and they’d play it in large numbers but then it wouldn’t be CAS anymore. I’ve tried to get my grandkids interested and other kids I have an opportunity to talk to about it and there is virtually zero interest in playing cowboy anymore. Our sport is getting older and if we don’t market to  middle aged  and newly retired types our sport will not be around in 10-20 years.

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Start out standing by a table with cartridge converted Colt Walker.   At the beep, pick up Walker and fire 5 rounds at the big dump target.  No penalty for missing, no bonus for hitting.  You just have to take the shots.   You can use two hands if you want, even if you are shooting duelist.  Make Walker safe and then proceed to the ten ten four as written for this stage.

 

The most common comment on this suggestion I remember hearing was, "Sounds like fun, but make the Walker shooting be off the clock."

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On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 7:01 PM, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

We're not going to attract young people to CAS--by which I mean the game as we know it.  We would have to turn it into something we don't recognize.  Yeah, I know, I'm being negative, but I'm right.  They couldn't care less.  Attracting young shooters is a fantasy that we should abandon, and concentrate on older people who have the means and the desire to get into it.  Kids shoot when it is cool to hang out with mom and dad or grandma and grandpa.  After that, forget it.  

As Yul said... "Truer words were never spoken..." I am amazed at the number of people that refuse to accept this fact.  I know that it is a Fantasy Game, but that doesn't mean that facts should be disregarded, and the facts are pretty simple... youngsters are far and few in between in this game, and I don't believe that they will ever make up a viable or sustaining part of this game. Geriatrics, this is the word of the day for sustaining membership as long as possible. Go after the remaining Baby Boomers and Generation X, they are your most likely targets, and if tapped successfully could add another 20 yrs to the game. Forget the idea of cutting down on the cost of entry equipment by allowing 22 RF into the adult game. That is not going to work. The folks that want to play this game will get equipped to play it.  In the mean time... go shoot and enjoy the day.... bring one of your old pals with you and let him do some light shooting. It just might bring us in one more new shooter.

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2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Start out standing by a table with cartridge converted Colt Walker.   At the beep, pick up Walker and fire 5 rounds at the big dump target.  No penalty for missing, no bonus for hitting.  You just have to take the shots.   You can use two hands if you want, even if you are shooting duelist.  Make Walker safe and then proceed to the ten ten four as written for this stage.

 

The most common comment on this suggestion I remember hearing was, "Sounds like fun, but make the Walker shooting be off the clock."

Sounds like fun, but I don't think I would let me Buckaroo do it and I suspect my wife would take a pass too.

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So.. have you all read the editorial in the latest Chronicle? Same topic. Seemed to me like it was similar to the first one.... kind of read like only the little guys can play the game, but the bigger matches can't.  Humm, I'm not so sure that's correct. Since my original post I've seen a number of pretty good size matches that seem to be playing the Game. I've gotta get to Texas... sounds like they know how to put on a Cowboy match.  I'm encouraged, and despite what I continue to read in our official publication,  I believe that a bright future must include a generous portion of the past. It's just my opinion, but it works at our club. NOT throwing any stones!  :D 

 

Snakebite

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49 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

So.. have you all read the editorial in the latest Chronicle? Same topic. Seemed to me like it was similar to the first one.... kind of read like only the little guys can play the game, but the bigger matches can't.  Humm, I'm not so sure that's correct. Since my original post I've seen a number of pretty good size matches that seem to be playing the Game. I've gotta get to Texas... sounds like they know how to put on a Cowboy match.  I'm encouraged, and despite what I continue to read in our official publication,  I believe that a bright future must include a generous portion of the past. It's just my opinion, but it works at our club. NOT throwing any stones!  :D 

 

Snakebite

I agree with a lot of what you say but doing some of this stuff on the clock puts a lot of shooters at a disadvantage. If we do it off the clock that’s one thing and I like it. Having a clothesline full of clothes that you have to maneuver through is fun until the tall guys come along and shoot right over the top, a distinct advantage. If going backwards is going to grow the sport I’m all for it but in a lot of cases I’ll have to find something else to do because I won’t be up to the physical challenges. One of the reasons the North County Shootists closed down is they wouldn’t move the targets in, enlarge them some and have scenarios that didn’t involve a Nevada Sweep on nearly every stage and some of the obstacles that they presented were downright dangerous, IMHO, of course. 

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53 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I agree with a lot of what you say but doing some of this stuff on the clock puts a lot of shooters at a disadvantage. If we do it off the clock that’s one thing and I like it. Having a clothesline full of clothes that you have to maneuver through is fun until the tall guys come along and shoot right over the top, a distinct advantage. If going backwards is going to grow the sport I’m all for it but in a lot of cases I’ll have to find something else to do because I won’t be up to the physical challenges. One of the reasons the North County Shootists closed down is they wouldn’t move the targets in, enlarge them some and have scenarios that didn’t involve a Nevada Sweep on nearly every stage and some of the obstacles that they presented were downright dangerous, IMHO, of course. 

You would get no argument from me. ALL things need to be done using some common sense. I wouldn't ask or expect ANYONE to do ANYTHING that they didn't want to do. Don't  want to get in the wagon, fine, stands beside it, I sure don't care. Worried about winning? Heck, just let me know, I'll give you a gold medal, who cares. It's not too late, come up and shoot Fort Miller. We will have fun with a mix of new and old.

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Just now, Snakebite said:

You would get no argument from me. ALL things need to be done using some common sense. I wouldn't ask or expect ANYONE to do ANYTHING that they didn't want to do. Don't  want to get I. The wagon, fine, stands beside it, I sure don't care. Worried about winning? Heck, just let me know, I'll give you a gold medal, who cares. It's not too late, come up and shoot Fort Miller. We will have fun with a mix of new and old.

Having just returned from the Crap Shoot and two carts to get finished and club trophies to build, I’m a little strapped for time this spring but look forward to next year.

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I read the editorials, both of them, and the letters. One comment that keeps coming up is that CAS is a game. I agree it is a game. So are football, baseball, basketball, on and on. What do games have in common, well they have winners and losers for one thing. They have rules to establish a level playing field. They are based on a player or team’s skill set in some area, whether it be the ability to hit a ball, catch a pass, shoot a gun, run fast, lift heavy weights, whatever. What most successful games don’t have or at least try to minimize is the element of chance, or characteristics that don’t capture the central aspect of the ‘game’. Chess games don’t have an arm wrestling component, baseball games don’t include a spelling bee, football games don’t include a hand of poker.

 

So what is the central element of CAS? Is it playing poker? Throwing a tomahawk? Looking cowboy? Shooting cowboy guns?

 

Some of the letters contradict the very idea that it is a game, they portray it as if it were just kids playing make believe. Sure make believe is part of it, but is it the central part? Some are just sour grapes, ‘he shoots really fast so that can’t be fun.’

 

If it’s a game there are going to be winners and losers.  People (gamers) are going to work to win (within the rules). That’s the nature of games. This is the only game I know where some contestants disparage others for practicing, thinking strategically, refining their equipment. Is Tom Brady a gamer? Was Michael Jordan? The Iron Cowboy practices basketball every day in hopes of making the HS team. When he shoots a three his toes are almost on the line, is he a gamer? Should he back up several feet to make it harder?

 

When did you last hear a football coach at any level calling his opponent names because he worked harder, trained better, came up with a new better play.

 

I think some who want to handicap top shooters, add non shooting elements on the clock, or introduce chance deliberately, don’t want a ‘game’ at all, they want to dress up, shoot some guns and go home.  Fine, then why even bother with a timer?

 

If the competitive aspect, and all that goes with it, bothers you, fine, we all have our druthers, but drop the refrain of ‘it’s a game’ because it makes no sense at all.

 

BTW, I’m not throwing stones either, just giving the view from my saddle.

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It's a Game. Ask the Founders what it is. I've talked to all of them... even those that are no longer with us. They ALL said that "It's a Game". Shooting is part of the game. We have between 1 and 2 million categories, because it is a game. If you want to really have a shooting competition those are certainly available. I just watched a first class IPSC match that was done on our Cowboy range.... Ha! I'd bet that well over 90% of our shooters couldn't even begin to complete in that match.  Yes, we do indeed have some talented shooters, but CAS is a far cry from a real and true shooting sport. Shooting is part of this Game. We call it an action game... but there is very little action in the shooting portion of this game. No run and gun allowed, just stand and shoot, then move and shoot again, virtually never at anything that is hard to hit. All of the action in this game must come from everything else, other than the shooting. I by no means want to see this game become just another shooting sport. In some places it has already become little more than a speed lever or slip hammer competition. That's not sour grapes, and if you know me, you also know that I'm not afraid of competition. I think that it's great..... as long as it's part of the game. With out the game it is just another shooting sport,  and the Founders sure didn't want that, and neither do I. 

Snakebite

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I am brand new to this game, but been shooting and carrying guns my whole life (about 50 y.o. now).  I have always shunned professional competition for a variety for reasons.  CAS has been attractive to me for the past 6-7 years, but I never bit despite having two single actions set up for CAS.  The big thing that kept me away (as a "young" 40 something shooter at the time) was I needed a shotgun and rifle too. 

 

Never paid much attention till I met a long friend/coworker (who is a cowboy in real life, LOL), and we each checked out each others single action guns, and he had a Henry as well.  I went to a CAS event, liked the people and what I saw, told him, and we both jumped in.  My cost was significantly hire to enter, but here we are.

 

Even though my club is not SASS, we follow the rules to the 99th percentile and on my first shoot, we had a revolver reload (for a full six from each) stage, and a rifle reload, all on the clock.  And then one stage had a bonus rifle 75 yard gong from either standing or bench.  So from what I hear, that is already some interesting stagings.  We both started of doing really well (we are gunmen by trade, nearly lol) but we still made a lot of mistakes.  My intent is not to be a champion, just get faster and always try to beat him, lol.  We enjoy the fact we are not working modern weapons, as the manual of arms does not interfere with my normal day-to-day. 

 

Now the trick is to get my girlfriend into it while he works on his wife!

 

FWIW, I think it is the cost that keeps many out of it (but that also limits maybe some folks you don't want to shoot next to.  Not saying that finances = commitment and safety, but we have all seen our fair share of yo-yos but at least they have insurance!) 

 

1.  I think if you want new shooters, you need to have a SASS sanctioned CAS "light" section devoted to new shooters who might to be able to afford just one single action gun and holster.

 

2.  You need a dedicated women only / new shooter day once/twice a year.  Forget them wearing costumes, but with US helping these new shooters, showing off our rigs and kit as they walk around, and where we can, letting them shoot for free (liability of course, always an issue) but heck, if you are worried, let them shoot wax bullets, right?

 

3.  I feel a lot of clubs are already doing some of this, and they are even having steampunk days, etc. and that of course is a good thing (b/c S.P. has it's own younger, cultural following) but I recognize any sweeping changes will ultimately affect the sport.

 

If SASS dies, CAS will not die with it but SASS is the umbrella that brings us together, so it is important to survive.  But like any organization, it either needs to maintain more solid bloodlines (which it can't since it is deliberately not contemporary) or adapt to changing times to bring fresh blood (and fresh issues) into the game.  I don't want to feel like I got into the game late, but as I read i feel the edge of the slope here.

 

Guys want it to treat it like NASCAR, that is fine.  Others just want to walk up to the stage, plug away in big whoosh of black powder smoke taking their time, that's fine by me too.  The game is what you make it, and whoever the best will be there every month.  If you are middle or bottom pack, pick the guy in front and go after them and try to beat them on your own as a personal best.

 

Or? Just enjoy the game while it lasts.

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I’m going to disagree, respectfully, with some of your conclusions Snakebite. I think CAS is a true shooting sport. I’ve shot a few of the other shooting sports and found them to be not as much fun as CAS, mainly because they lacked the camaraderie of CAS, but also because I didn’t care for most of the guns involved. I own an AR and can use one fairly well, but shooting one doesn’t put a smile on my face the way a ‘73 does, the same for a tricked out Mossy with a quarter mile long tube. I certainly never felt I couldn’t be competitive if I wanted to.

 

I don’t know what the Founders wanted the game to be, but I’m happy to take your word for it. Having said that, games grow and evolve. Popular games often move beyond what their creators envisioned. I bet Naismith would enjoy today’s version of basketball, but it would be very different from what he originally created. The same with football and many other games.

 

I certainly don’t think you have sour grapes or are afraid of competition! I respect your opinion and your experience.  I just think that for me the central part of the game is shooting cowboy guns, not riding broomstick horses, sitting in bathtubs, or throwing tomahawks. I don’t mind doing them, but again from my saddle, putting them on the clock detracts from the game.

 

I definitely believe there are a significant number of cowboys who resent that the game has become so fast and look down on ‘gamers’ for trying to win. I believe that’s unfortunate and often the result of ‘sour grapes.’

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Like it or not the game has evolved from what it started out as. I’ve watched new observers roll their eyes when we have to ride a stick horse from one gun to the next (me too). I’ve watched new observers walk away in disgust after watching a 15 second stage on big, in your face targets. So where’s the middle ground is the question. Do we piss off the folks that like the big and close Bordertown style? Do we turn the clock back and start toting dummies from one gun to the next?

 

When I first started CAS I thought a lot of the game playing was fun but as I’ve aged I just can’t do this stuff safely anymore and on my posse at The Crap Shoot this weekend I’d estimate that 30% of the posse would not be able to do some of the stuff that we used to do. 

 

It is a shooting sport and and the Founders had to expect changes over time. If turning back the clock to the good old days is the way to save CAS and SASS then let’s do it, but I’ve got my doubts.

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CBB, I do not disagree with you comments. True, the central part of things is indeed shooting. The difference is the venue of playing the game while doing it. Where as most IPSC type stage descriptions just say something to the effect of Start here and move through the stage shooting targets as they become available. That's OK... but that is basically the same instruction for stage after stage after stage. No game playing. Without doubt, the game has evolved a great deal from what it was when it started. No more swinging across on a rope or throwing yourself down on the ground under a buckboard and such, but acting out a well written scenario is the fun of the game. Walk into the Saloon and pour a drink up to the Line on the clock is fun. Why on the clock? Because it is fun to see who will just try to dump it and who will take their time so as not to spill any and miss the bonus. It's just part of the play acting for the game. I'm afraid that my zeal might exaggerate the amount of play that I think ought to happen. We are getting ready for our 25th anniversary annual match. We will have you sit in the buckboard and pull up you own shotgun targets stage, a stage shooting at a swinging target, a jailbreak stage, a total Shooting Arcade stage, a stage that moves you down a long street with many buildings and shooting 10 shotgun + rifle and pistols, a stage that puts you into a Powered Ore Cart that will drive you down into the canyon shooting all the way, and a stage where you control a Flying Buffalo that is on a LONG cable the moves across the canyon. We will also have some stages that will offers the shooter choices of shooting hard or easy targets. I use a lot of Knock down targets, and a fair amount of poppers with birds. Virtually every Knock down  and bird can be made up, and the vast majority of the targets are plenty large, and at SASS minimum or in many  cases closer. The ONLY targets that are far, are 4 ft square. You can start shooting them as soon as the Ore cart comes out of the mine approx. 50 yds, or wait until the Ore cart is at the end of the rail. IN YOUR FACE... shooters choice. The sooner you shoot them, the faster your time will be... but sometimes people miss those big targets due to "Bumps" in the rail..... its just the game that we play, and they come back every year to play it again. We never have an problem getting shooters. The only shooters that we don't get are those that think this is a serious shooting sport. We wish them well, but don't miss them. 

 

Snakebite

 

Yes Yule... I don't want to ride a stick horse either!

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Making a SASS Match.

 

Ingredients:

Safety Regulations (needs plenty and don't skimp on quality of product)

Fun ( carefully adjust quantity to taste)

Target Size & Distance (requires careful consideration of consumers)

 

Instructions:

Carefully blend ingredients until smooth & lovingly hand mold in to shape.

Can be served at room temperature, heated or chilled to natural surroundings.

 

Disclaimer: You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

 

 

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I really appreciate your posts Snakebite.  Although we don't always enjoy the same aspects of the game, I for one would not enjoy pouring a shot on the clock, I think we do enjoy enough similar aspects to enjoy shooting together.  Hopefully we'll meet one day and I can hear some stories of the good ole days over a few drinks.

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