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Snakebite

Editorial (update)

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OK  I understand. Wranglers came about in 1945.Not sure when Uberti started making Colt Clones.. certainly Ruger was a bit later. Wah Maker didn't start making Period Clothing until when.... late 1980's or so. Don't know. To me it doesn't matter when anything was made if it looks somewhat correct.  The only "Form Fitting" trousers that I have ever seen in any old photo's were the Vaquero pants. Certainly the early "Jeans" didn't hug a man's Butt or fit so snuggly. The B-Western guys wore some pretty snug pants... just look at the Lone Ranger. Ha! What is funny to me, is to head to Las Vegas in Dec when the National Finals are in town... EVERY Rodeo Cowboy there has his Wranglers on (100%) and they all look exactly the same... the ONLY difference from year to year is whether it will be a Black Felt, a White Felt or a White Straw... All depends upon who is big on the Country Music charts that year. Oh yeah... they all have to have that familiar circle on the hip pocket from the can of Copenhagen. But no matter what it is that year, they WILL all look identical. Ha, now THAT is funny. It extends to the ladies too. Rhinestones have been pretty big lately. I'm waiting for the Big Hair to come back. :lol: 

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I got quite a lecture at EOT by a guy that was critical of my buffalo head nickels that adorned my hatband and that I had on my vest as buttons. According to him the buffalo head nickel was not period correct because it hadn’t been minted until the 1930’s thus it shouldn’t be allowed. While he was giving me this scolding and lecture I couldn’t help but stare at the digital wristwatch strapped to his left wrist. Kind of a “ Do as I say not as I do” type moment.

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I keep avoiding responding, my fingers won out ^_^

 

I quit in 2009 or so mostly, but still went to a match or two and 2010, then dropped off the radar completely.  Picked up some other hobbies.  Back now.

 

Anyway, why I left was partly the proliferation of big and close.  I just don't enjoy a "how fast can you empty your gun" type of stage too much.  Turns out that one of the MD's around here decided he'd had enough, so I was asked to take over for him.  I now run the Sloughhouse Irregulars, and we shoot on 5th weekend days.  Since I'm writing the stages now B) I'm focusing on mixing it up.  

 

We'll have stages with props to handle on the clock.  We'll have pistol targets out at the end of the bay.  We'll have some targets almost close enough to touch.  We'll have stages with a lot of movement and the ability to engage while moving  (which can be done following SASS rules).  My goal is to write stages that are "outside the norm".  We've had 3 match days thus far and the number of smiles has been great to see.  And the feedback I've received is more than enough to keep me motivated.

 

Come out and join us at Diamond Dick's Cowboy Town at the Sacramento Valley Shooting Center. 5th weekend days - which means sometimes both a Saturday and Sunday match.

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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Good for you Doc.. I know that you know how it's done. Are you involved with the State match?

 

Snakebite

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1 minute ago, Snakebite said:

Good for you Doc.. I know that you know how it's done. Are you involved with the State match?

 

Snakebite

 

 

A bit.  When I took over the Irregulars I was drafted.  I'm not writing the stages, though will likely contribute some ideas.  I don't know what we'll see for stages at the state match this year.

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2 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I got quite a lecture at EOT by a guy that was critical of my buffalo head nickels that adorned my hatband and that I had on my vest as buttons. According to him the buffalo head nickel was not period correct because it hadn’t been minted until the 1930’s thus it shouldn’t be allowed. While he was giving me this scolding and lecture I couldn’t help but stare at the digital wristwatch strapped to his left wrist. Kind of a “ Do as I say not as I do” type moment.

 

Sure hope you let that clown have it, when he finished his crap talking........

OLG

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That sounds like a lot of fun, Doc Shapiro.  Wish I lived close enough to shoot with y'all.

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Perhaps ------------- Some of the younger shooters have expressed a desire to be able to "shoot on the move". Often when this topic comes up, many reply "what about those of us that don't move so well"! That is easy - "Open class". Ya I know "just what we need another category"! Well we have several age based categories. if we look at other disciplines, IDPA, USPSA etc. While there are some Senior Division. Mostly the shooting classes are divided by skill level and / and or equipment, stock, limited, open class. While I am sure we can all agree that many (most) of our competitors are above "senior". Perhaps, just perhaps by going to some skill and / or equipment categories and maybe even (god forbid) allowing an open or master class shooter to move while shooting. It cold possibly attract some younger action shooters to the game. We have all heard someone say "I'd try CAS if I did not have to dress up". Well CAS is clearly not for them. The minimal costuming speed demons are part of the game and represent our weapon system's being used at their highest level. The serious costumer / historian that shoots 40 second stages have their place as well. While I never want to see a ball cap or t-shirt in our sport, I think costuming is an individual thing.

 

The REAL QUESTION IS ----- How do we attract new shooters. Some of my suggestions above may or may not be an answer. The younger folks did not grow up with western heroes like some of us. For them, the attraction is going to be shooting and ACTION. The occasional stand and deliver is ok but it's a bit boring as would a match with poker hands, knife throwing and climbing on a stage coach at every stage would be rather tedious. I believe the answer may well be in a balance, move a few targets back a few yards, add a couple smaller ones here and there, pour a shot of whiskey now and then, along with some well thought out categories and that may be what could attract some younger shooters and could be the a way to save our sport. I have spoken to a couple of Mountan Man / Rendevous guys and they said it feels like it is dying due to no new participants. Everything changes and so must we!

 

 "If you think you are always right, you learn nothing from life"!

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Who else misses the team shoots from Winter Range that had 2 awards - Best shooting and Best Costuming. The emphasis was on a movie. Wild Bunch, Lonesome Dove etc. It was the most fun!!

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Hey Bronc.. we all move and shoot at our Fort Miller match.... yep, I put your butt in a nice powered ore cart with a driver and move you down the track while your shoot!. Moving and shooting is indeed fun.. but as you know it can not be done safely by many of our members. We have more untrained shooters than any other sport. I understand what you are proposing, but It's not going to happen in this game. One thing that hurts us compared to IPSC or the others, is the cost. You can go down an buy a $500 gun and start shooting that  game the next day. Yes, there are some very expensive guns in that game, but you can start shooting in that game for CHEAP. You can not do that in CAS..

Snakbite 

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Yup, cost of gear is certainly an issue. The "shooting on the move safety issue is solved with shooter classification, Open Class. If you are not comfortable or safe with shooting on the move, don't shoot in that class.

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21 minutes ago, Bronc said:

Yup, cost of gear is certainly an issue. The "shooting on the move safety issue is solved with shooter classification, Open Class. If you are not comfortable or safe with shooting on the move, don't shoot in that class.

Forgive me, but we'll have to agree to disagree.  Human nature being what it is, there will be that (insert any age you wish here) jughead that "THINKS" he can do anything anyone else can, and ends up hurting himself or God forbid another.  Or, maybe even worse... he gets his ego all butt-hurt because he actually can't do what he thought he could; and then goes all over town bad-mouthing SASS in particular and Cowboy Action Shooting in general...  

 

I like the idea of a "Novice" class, where one shoots while one gains the equipment, skill and knowledge to shoot the other classes...  but, who wants to take on the responsibility to determine when any particular "novice" is ready to "advance"... not to mention the attendant liability.  Open a whole 'nuther can_of_worms_ahead.jpg

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I would enjoy if Western Three Gun came to AZ under SASS but understand it is their decision and it is their right to decline.  There are  shooters of all ages who compete in CA in Western Three Gun.   How would you decide who could and couldn't?     I realize this opens a can of worms, but solutions are never creative if discussion is forbidden.  An open category sounds great, but would need to be defined.   Remember rank pts.    Don't anyone tell Hell's Comin he is an older shooter.  He keeps kickin' b____  Great editorial by the way.  

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14 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I got quite a lecture at EOT by a guy that was critical of my buffalo head nickels that adorned my hatband and that I had on my vest as buttons. According to him the buffalo head nickel was not period correct because it hadn’t been minted until the 1930’s thus it shouldn’t be allowed. While he was giving me this scolding and lecture I couldn’t help but stare at the digital wristwatch strapped to his left wrist. Kind of a “ Do as I say not as I do” type moment.

1913 is when the first buffalo nickel was minted. 

Would you happen to have a 1926S  I'd be happy to give you $20 for it and pay for your next Eot entry. 

HC

 

 

 

 

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Other disciplines use a standardized skills test. IDPA Qualifier for instance, decides your category based on skills.

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14 minutes ago, Bronc said:

Other disciplines use a standardized skills test. IDPA Qualifier for instance, decides your category based on skills.

How much thicker do we need the rule book to be?  And how regimented do we want to become... I've been a two-handed shooter for most of my SASS career, but I have to shoot duelist to shoot my beloved "Frontiersman"... even though I'm not very good at it.   I've even dabbled at "Gunfighter" a few times, in order to have a better understanding of what to expect those folks to do when I'm running the timer...  And, yes, I think that made me a better TO; at least as far as Gunfighters were concerned.  How many folks would just quit in frustration when they couldn't pass the "qualifier" for Gunfighter, as a for instance.  Or how many wouldn't bother to come out at all, because that's the only category they're interested in... 

 

We're a bit far down the road we're on to abandon it and try some other route.  As many of us have said about other new categories, give it a shot at your club, report back with your results... I ain't sayin' it ain't a great idea... just sayin' that it's a might late for that change... it'd upset me greatly if I couldn't pass the criteria for Frontiersman...   Or are you suggesting something different....

 

Say, until you average under 40 seconds a stage, you're a novice,  average under 30 seconds and you're an intermediate, etc., regardless of shooting style, costume, or age?  And that's the sole basis of awards?  Surely you're not suggesting that we divide up Gunfighters on that basis, and add those awards to the list?

 

For a practical matter, who's going to maintain the records?  Every club is now going to have to submit their match results to SASS so their shooters are classified properly?  I don't think that increase in workload will go over very well at SASS HQ...

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Without new shooters coming into the sport decline is inevitable. Adaptation and change is the only thing that will perpetuate the sport.

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39 minutes ago, Griff said:

How much thicker do we need the rule book to be?  And how regimented do we want to become... I've been a two-handed shooter for most of my SASS career, but I have to shoot duelist to shoot my beloved "Frontiersman"... even though I'm not very good at it.   I've even dabbled at "Gunfighter" a few times, in order to have a better understanding of what to expect those folks to do when I'm running the timer...  And, yes, I think that made me a better TO; at least as far as Gunfighters were concerned.  How many folks would just quit in frustration when they couldn't pass the "qualifier" for Gunfighter, as a for instance.  Or how many wouldn't bother to come out at all, because that's the only category they're interested in... 

 

We're a bit far down the road we're on to abandon it and try some other route.  As many of us have said about other new categories, give it a shot at your club, report back with your results... I ain't sayin' it ain't a great idea... just sayin' that it's a might late for that change... it'd upset me greatly if I couldn't pass the criteria for Frontiersman...   Or are you suggesting something different....

 

Say, until you average under 40 seconds a stage, you're a novice,  average under 30 seconds and you're an intermediate, etc., regardless of shooting style, costume, or age?  And that's the sole basis of awards?  Surely you're not suggesting that we divide up Gunfighters on that basis, and add those awards to the list?

 

For a practical matter, who's going to maintain the records?  Every club is now going to have to submit their match results to SASS so their shooters are classified properly?  I don't think that increase in workload will go over very well at SASS HQ...

Yep, I can see it now an up and coming gunfighter or any other persuasion being blackballed from advancing to his or her chosen category because the ultimate decision maker doesn’t want the competitive threat.

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If moving while shooting was allowed I think that people are over estimating how much and to what level it would occur.  In the other sports very little shooting happens at high speed. Most of it is when a shooter is slowly advancing with close open targets in view. Most shooters move as quickly as they are able and stop and shoot targets then move again. No requirement to move and shoot.

 

In SASS I think most of what you'd see would be the shooters feet not be planted as they come into a position or leave a position while firing shots. Most of the moving and shooting would be not having one foot planted (basketball rule) as opposed to shooting while moving at top speed. The way SASS targets are layed out wouldn't require much movement.

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I shoot modern action events where shooting on the move is allowed.  I move at a brisk pace sometimes stopping when careful shot placement is required.  I've seen shooters try to run through a stage.  They frequently entirely miss targets or hose the no-shoot targets.  I've seen two trip and fall holding a loaded, cocked firearm.  They maintained safe muzzle control and their handgun did not discharge as they hit the ground hard.  I just can't see shooting a stage with my tuned cap and ball revolvers while moving briskly.  I'm not sure if I tripped and hit the ground hard that a revolver would not discharge.  I like SASS rules prohibiting shooting while moving.  Some of our firearms lack safety features common on current designs.

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3 hours ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I shoot modern action events where shooting on the move is allowed.  I move at a brisk pace sometimes stopping when careful shot placement is required.  I've seen shooters try to run through a stage.  They frequently entirely miss targets or hose the no-shoot targets.  I've seen two trip and fall holding a loaded, cocked firearm.  They maintained safe muzzle control and their handgun did not discharge as they hit the ground hard.  I just can't see shooting a stage with my tuned cap and ball revolvers while moving briskly.  I'm not sure if I tripped and hit the ground hard that a revolver would not discharge.  I like SASS rules prohibiting shooting while moving.  Some of our firearms lack safety features common on current designs.

W3G permits you to move-an-shoot. Not an issue.

You also start with a loaded(2rnds)in a shotgun.

OLG

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double

Edited by Snakebite

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I think that W3G, IDPA, IPSC, Bulls Eye, all have some really neat ideas, and can be a lot of fun. I say go for it. If you want to do what they do, then go do it. Remember that CAS was started for one main reason...…. TO GET AWAY FROM WHAT THOSE ORGANIZATIONS ARE DOING. SASS grew by leaps and bounds because so many people that DID NOT want to play those games found a place that was not intimidating. It was based on just having fun and was friendly to folks that were just your everyday person, with very little shooting skill.  As long as they were safe they were welcome and they were able to participate without any pressure. Yes, this game is indeed loosing some of it's numbers because of our aging membership, but if those things that the other shooting game do were to be added to our wonderful game, I think that it would die overnight because the a good many of the members would stop attending matches that allowed such things. They would attend matches that stayed true to what we are.  Clubs like ours.  I don't think that it will be any real problem because nobody is going to turn this game into another run and gun shooting sport. There are already plenty of those games around and they are riding a high right now and flourishing. I'm happy for them. We work very well with our IPSC neighbors, and have for the past 25 yrs.  They do what they do and we do what we do. It works out very well for both of us. :D

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And that's it, right there in a nutshell.  ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ 

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If you set up a SASS match the way they are currently set up, with the only change being to allow moving and shooting, the difference would be minor. You'd have to set up targets in completely different patterns stringing them out between positions to see a dramatic difference in the way a stage was shot.

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At three of the four matches I attend regularly down range movement can’t happen because the stages share the same bays. At Cajon the only stage with downrange movement is stage one and I love it but DR movement isn’t possible on the other stages.

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Can someone explain why we need to move and shoot at the same time?

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Can someone explain why we need to move and shoot at the same time?

Why not-Just says you can, if you want-Not a command to do so.

It's the shooters choice to do so in W3G.

OLG

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24 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Why not-Just says you can, if you want-Not a command to do so.

It's the shooters choice to do so in W3G.

OLG

 

This not W3G.

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Just now, Tyrel Cody said:

 

This not W3G.

So what? W3G has some good 'thoughts' that could be incorporated within SASS stages.

This in turn, may draw more folks to join.

Giving the shooter the choice is a good thing. One way only, is not the best........

What is wrong with having a choice? :huh:

Respectfully,

OLG

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3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

So what? W3G has some good 'thoughts' that could be incorporated within SASS stages.

This in turn, may draw more folks to join.

Giving the shooter the choice is a good thing. One way only, is not the best........

What is wrong with having a choice? :huh:

Respectfully,

OLG

 

Because there are people that should not be moving and shooting, but will because they are allowed. IMO this is not a rule that needs changing. We aren't going to attract the young folks by making our game more like WG3. Like was stated by Snakebite above, leave it be.

 

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Because there are people that should not be moving and shooting, but will because they are allowed. IMO this is not a rule that needs changing. We aren't going to attract the young folks by making our game more like WG3. Like was stated by Snakebite above, leave it be.

 

No option, is never a good choice.

We will just have to agree, to disagree then........

Sure wouldn't hurt to try it on a trial bases, and see for sure.

OLG

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9 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

No option, is never a good choice.

We will just have to agree, to disagree then........

Sure wouldn't hurt to try it on a trial bases, and see for sure.

OLG

 

I can agree to disagree ;)

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

I can agree to disagree ;)

 

 

Will have a cold beer for ya, when we meet.............

OLG

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4 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Will have a cold beer for ya, when we meet.............

OLG

And I'll buy round 2.

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