Shotgun length of pull considerations

[War Grizzly]

Howdy,

I bought a Cimarron 1878 earlier this year and I'm slowly tricking it out for CAS. I've reversed the triggers and welded them to reduce the pretravel, extended the hammers, bent the lever, reduced the mainsprings, funneled the chambers, and generally polished the China out of it. It runs fairly smooth. I wish the chambers had been better from the factory as they were the worst I've ever seen, but I've polished them to reasonableness.

 

My next step it's to do something about the buttplate. 

 

I'm thinking of cutting the stock past where the steel plate curves around the top and installing a thick pachmeyer recoil pad. This shotgun is HEAVY and I'm having a tough time with an injury to my left shoulder. The force required to lift the heavy barrels into battery is killing my shoulder. I feel that if the stock were shorter that this would bring the forearm closer and put less stress on my left shoulder. (I shoot right handed)

In comparison to my tacticool 870 that I shoot very well at stationary or slow moving targets, the 1878 is 2.5" longer and at a negative angle. The 870 being shorter in LOP helps me get in position and on target faster. My bird guns; on the other hand, all have extended butt pads with added drop at comb to keep me on targets that fly. 

 

My question for the wire is what determines your optimum length of pull for your cowboy scatter guns?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

11 minutes ago, War Grizzly said:

Howdy,

I bought a Cimarron 1878 earlier this year and I'm slowly tricking it out for CAS. I've reversed the triggers and welded them to reduce the pretravel, extended the hammers, bent the lever, reduced the mainsprings, funneled the chambers, and generally polished the China out of it. It runs fairly smooth. I wish the chambers had been better from the factory as they were the worst I've ever seen, but I've polished them to reasonableness.

 

My next step it's to do something about the buttplate. 

 

I'm thinking of cutting the stock past where the steel plate curves around the top and installing a thick pachmeyer recoil pad. This shotgun is HEAVY and I'm having a tough time with an injury to my left shoulder. The force required to lift the heavy barrels into battery is killing my shoulder. I feel that if the stock were shorter that this would bring the forearm closer and put less stress on my left shoulder. (I shoot right handed)

In comparison to my tacticool 870 that I shoot very well at stationary or slow moving targets, the 1878 is 2.5" longer and at a negative angle. The 870 being shorter in LOP helps me get in position and on target faster. My bird guns; on the other hand, all have extended butt pads with added drop at comb to keep me on targets that fly. 

 

My question for the wire is what determines your optimum length of pull for your cowboy scatter guns?

 

The 1878 has pretty decent hammers out-of-the-box.  The rules allow bending levers.  Howerver, I do not see extending the hammers on the list of approved modifications.

[Snakebite]

Those hammers are not legal

[War Grizzly]

16 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

The 1878 has pretty decent hammers out-of-the-box.  The rules allow bending levers.  Howerver, I do not see extending the hammers on the list of approved modifications.

Yep, I agree. It's not on the list, I modified the hammers to look like cimarrons doc holiday edition where the hammers are bent up and slightly longer. it's an area of the rule book that I feel if I adhere to the general concept that the gun should look like a factory gun I don't see why my mod that looks like a factory offering should be disallowed. If in a local match I should ever be called out for it I would gladly concede. Or just buy doc holiday hammers from Cimarron and call it a day. I could be way off base with all that and it is not the intention if my post.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

As to length of pull, if your pump shotgun fits you well, you could match it with the SxS.

 

Since we generally shoot towards the ground, you can either cut the butt square to the comb or have a very slight negative angle to point down just a little versus the pointing up for most hunting and trap guns.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A shorter stock will likely be quicker to get on multiple targets.  Many folks go about 1 to 1.5 inches shorter than their bird guns.  One rule of thumb - literally - if your thumb would recoil back into your nose, you have cut your stock too short.

 

That 1878 clone currently has a POSITIVE angle which forces the barrels upward as you shoulder the gun.  You will probably want to cut so you get a negative angle (toe shorter than the heel at the top of the stock (even if you shorten the stock), as it gets you down onto our low targets pretty well.  Lots of beginning SASS shooters shoot over shotgun targets because they are are not getting face down on stock and looking down the barrels.

 

External mods not covered by the rule books can be run by the SASS Rules Committee for a ruling.   I'd also agree you have made an obvious and unallowable mod, since operating the hammers play such a big part of the speed of shooting a hammered double.  If you feel justified, ask for a ruling and see if those hammers will pass muster.

 

Yes, to quote Ed Harris in Appaloosa, "Colt did make a pretty heavy gun" (the Colt 1878 shotgun design is what the TTN/Cimarron was copied from).  A recoil pad is often added when a stock is shortened, since the factory metal buttplate won't fit any more.  Recoil pad is an authorized modification.   But if lifting the weight of the gun is the real cause of your pain, I don't see the recoil pad doing much to improve the pain of lifting.  

 

I hope the "chamber polishing" you did will not lead to either split or badly enlarged and sticky fired hulls.   Yes, the Chinese factory seems to pay little attention to taking care with reaming the chambers.   Most of the 1878 copies I've seen have divots down the chambers.  Some have been so bad that stainless steel sleeves have been fitted and new chambers cut.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

1 hour ago, War Grizzly said:

Yep, I agree. It's not on the list, I modified the hammers to look like cimarrons doc holiday edition where the hammers are bent up and slightly longer. it's an area of the rule book that I feel if I adhere to the general concept that the gun should look like a factory gun I don't see why my mod that looks like a factory offering should be disallowed. If in a local match I should ever be called out for it I would gladly concede. Or just buy doc holiday hammers from Cimarron and call it a day. I could be way off base with all that and it is not the intention if my post.

FYI the Doc Holiday is a completely different gun made by a different manufacturer.  The hammers are not interchangeable.  The Doc Holiday hammers look higher because they are skinny compared to the 1878 hammers.  They are also much more widely spaced that the 1878 hammers.  The reason SASS has the rule about external mods is to address situations where people "feel" their mod "should be allowed."  It either is allowed or it is not.  Your mod is not.

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

If you have continuing medical problems you might consider a different shotgun.

I had one shotgun and Coyote Cap advised me on a different one(stoeger) and he

touched it up for my situation.

maybe try a few setups after a match and see what suits you.

It seems to me that cocking hammers may stress your bad shoulder?

Why put money into a gun if its the wrong gun?

Best

CR

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, War Grizzly said:

Yep, I agree. It's not on the list, I modified the hammers to look like cimarrons doc holiday edition where the hammers are bent up and slightly longer. it's an area of the rule book that I feel if I adhere to the general concept that the gun should look like a factory gun I don't see why my mod that looks like a factory offering should be disallowed. If in a local match I should ever be called out for it I would gladly concede. Or just buy doc holiday hammers from Cimarron and call it a day. I could be way off base with all that and it is not the intention if my post.

 

That is not how that "area of the handbook" works.
Suggested reading:
SHB p.3

It would be unfortunate to put a lot of work into a firearm to make it fit & function only to get SDQd for using it at a club/match that adheres to SASS rules.

[War Grizzly]

Yep Yep. I completely agree with all the discussion about the hammers and the rule book. It does seem strange to me that you can reprofile the hammer but not if it ends up being taller. I have asked for clarification as has been advised. Its an easy fix. Nevertheless, the intention of my post was to discuss the length of pull and how others have determined what works best for them. And to that end, I appreciate the input. 

 

[Cholla Bob]

this is one way to find length of pull

 

 

[July Smith]

I shot trap and skeet in 4H from about the time I was 13 to 18.  We were taught that proper LOP was the distance from your elbow to the first joint of your trigger finger.  Being over 6ft tall at 15 and short on cash; almost every gun I ever shot with was too short.  I could get by with a short LOP provided the comb was built up enough to get my eye behind the bead.  At 16 I managed to save up enough money from birthdays and odd jobs to buy myself a sweet Beretta 391 and have the high combed Monte Carlo style stock fitted and adjusted for me, man what a world of difference a fitted stock made!    Now I am new to SASS, but I do not see how poorly fitted shotgun stock can be an advantage.  If your 870 fits you better I would certainly recommend cutting back the stock to a more appropriate length.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

On 8/28/2017 at 9:17 AM, July Smith said:

Now I am new to SASS, but I do not see how poorly fitted shotgun stock can be an advantage

 

It's REALLY common in SASS to run shotguns and even rifles with shorter than bird, skeet or trap shooting LOP dimensions.  Until you TRY a shortened stock, the fact that a shortened stock improves handling speed may not be evident to you.

 

Handling speed is the most important part of our shotgun shooting, because of all the manual manipulations you do while picking up the gun, loading and ejecting shells, then transitioning away from the gun.  The shotgun in cowboy matches requires work, maybe 80% of that practice involves handling and 20% is practice on shooting/hitting.     We don't need (or have time for) the precision needed to hit small moving targets at 30-40 yards, with lead and wind and other things all considered.   We need big stationary close targets hit quick and the gun maneuvered successfully through windows, doors, vertical staging, horizontal staging, fast pickups and even faster lay downs, and loading and unloading at the speed of sound.   

 

The conventional shotgunning concept of a perfectly fitted stock with a crook-of-elbow to trigger finger LOP will add seconds to every stage you shoot in cowboy matches.  

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

[Noz]

I am a big guy and I shoot a Baikal double with as bone stock stock.  I have always had difficulty knocking down SASS targets.  Just on a whim I decided to add a 3/4" pad with a built in 5 degree angle to my shotgun. Change is hit percentage was amazing.  I still miss a few but I know when I pull the trigger why it happened, not a vague feeling that the target should have fallen but didn't.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

1 hour ago, July Smith said:

. . .   We were taught that proper LOP was the distance from your elbow to the first joint of your trigger finger.  . . .

 

I was taught the same thing.

 

Then a couple of national champion shotgun shooters explained that with that measurement, the gun will fit into the crook of your arm, but may very well not fit you to shoot.  The LOP depends on your arm, shoulder and chest size and not everyone's arms are proportioned the same either.

 

For SASS they said to get your nose 1 1/2 to 2 inches from your strong thumb.

 

Remember that we don't shoot the shotgun as a shotgun, but as a rifle.

[War Grizzly]

35 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

 

I was taught the same thing.

 

Then a couple of national champion shotgun shooters explained that with that measurement, the gun will fit into the crook of your arm, but may very well not fit you to shoot.  The LOP depends on your arm, shoulder and chest size and not everyone's arms are proportioned the same either.

 

For SASS they said to get your nose 1 1/2 to 2 inches from your strong thumb.

 

Remember that we don't shoot the shotgun as a shotgun, but as a rifle.

Good info. I was fit by kolar for my skeet gun and it is a different animal. I can hit birds with it but I wouldn't shoot steel fast. Too much gun to get out of the way. Ill see where the 1.5" puts me when I get home. 

Now to order a recoil pad....

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

16 minutes ago, War Grizzly said:

Good info. I was fit by kolar for my skeet gun and it is a different animal. I can hit birds with it but I wouldn't shoot steel fast. Too much gun to get out of the way. Ill see where the 1.5" puts me when I get home. 

Now to order a recoil pad....

When you add that pad change the angle too. The stocks on most of the CAS SXS guns use are designed for aerial targets. When you point them toward the ground the positive toe of those stocks tends to dig into your shoulder when you fire. This will eventually cause the shooter to let the stock move down on shoulder which brings the front end up. Shot goes high. Savvy shooters will lean way into the shot but that usually doesn't always work. For the shotguns besides shortening the stock I like cut them so the pad is about 5 degrees negative. That also helps take some of the felt recoil away shooting at our ground targets.

[Eyesa Horg]

3 hours ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

When you add that pad change the angle too. The stocks on most of the CAS SXS guns use are designed for aerial targets. When you point them toward the ground the positive toe of those stocks tends to dig into your shoulder when you fire. This will eventually cause the shooter to let the stock move down on shoulder which brings the front end up. Shot goes high. Savvy shooters will lean way into the shot but that usually doesn't always work. For the shotguns besides shortening the stock I like cut them so the pad is about 5 degrees negative. That also helps take some of the felt recoil away shooting at our ground targets.

Nate--- Is the 5 degrees measured from the comb or the barrel?

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Barrels. That is the sighting plan. Combs can change.

[Tennessee Stud]

1 hour ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

Barrels. That is the sighting plan. Combs can change.

 

 

Don't know if you and I have ever had a shared thread... on any SASS forum.

 

But wanted to tell ya... I don't know how many on this site appreciate you like I do... but you deserve great appreciation.  You are great at what you do.  Most folks would want to be as good as you... at what they do in this life.

 

Well... just wanted to say it... 'fore something happens.

 

ts

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I have had success with a 12ga laser pointer.

You learn a lot when the shooter closes their eyes, brings the gun on target and then opens their eyes as they pull the trigger.

As long as the shouldering technique is good, then the stock can be properly fitted much more accurately to the shooter.

A shotgun should be part of the body when shooting and naturally fit the shooter.

 

Most cowboy shooter miss high with their shotguns when they miss because their face is not "welded" to the stock as it should be. Raising the head causes the shooter to over the target. The rear sight on the shotgun is the position of your eyeball.

 

That being said, many 97 shooters never shoulder their shotgun. They use their two hands to point at the target as they slam fire the gun. A ill-fitted stock makes little difference in this situation.

 

 

 

[Pat Riot]

On 8/27/2017 at 8:42 PM, Cholla Bob said:

this is one way to find length of pull

 

 

 

Cholla Bob, Thank you for that video. Now I understand why the "elbow crook" LOP standard never really worked for me.

 

Thanks

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

18 hours ago, Tennessee Stud said:

 

 

Don't know if you and I have ever had a shared thread... on any SASS forum.

 

But wanted to tell ya... I don't know how many on this site appreciate you like I do... but you deserve great appreciation.  You are great at what you do.  Most folks would want to be as good as you... at what they do in this life.

 

Well... just wanted to say it... 'fore something happens.

 

ts

 

TS, thanks so much. But the pleasure is all mine because I have the greatest job in the world. I get to play with everybody's toys and get paid for it too. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 5:00 PM, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

The 1878 has pretty decent hammers out-of-the-box.  The rules allow bending levers.  Howerver, I do not see extending the hammers on the list of approved modifications.

 

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 5:23 PM, Snakebite said:

Those hammers are not legal

 

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:24 PM, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

FYI the Doc Holiday is a completely different gun made by a different manufacturer.  The hammers are not interchangeable.  The Doc Holiday hammers look higher because they are skinny compared to the 1878 hammers.  They are also much more widely spaced that the 1878 hammers.  The reason SASS has the rule about external mods is to address situations where people "feel" their mod "should be allowed."  It either is allowed or it is not.  Your mod is not.

 

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:43 PM, War Grizzly said:

Yep Yep. I completely agree with all the discussion about the hammers and the rule book. It does seem strange to me that you can reprofile the hammer but not if it ends up being taller. I have asked for clarification as has been advised. Its an easy fix. Nevertheless, the intention of my post was to discuss the length of pull and how others have determined what works best for them. And to that end, I appreciate the input. 

 

You didn't indicate to whom you were going for clarification regarding the legality of lengthening the hammers, but the issue (OP with attached photo) was presented to the Range Operations Committee (ROC) for a ruling.
The unanimous opinion is that LENGTHENING the hammers of a shotgun does NOT fall under the "re-profiling parts" allowance.

 

The modification is NOT LEGAL & use of the modified firearm would be subject to a STAGE DISQUALIFICATION (x2 = MDQ).

 

 

 

 

[War Grizzly]

21 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

 

 

 

You didn't indicate to whom you were going for clarification regarding the legality of lengthening the hammers, but the issue (OP with attached photo) was presented to the Range Operations Committee (ROC) for a ruling.
The unanimous opinion is that LENGTHENING the hammers of a shotgun does NOT fall under the "re-profiling parts" allowance.

 

The modification is NOT LEGAL & use of the modified firearm would be subject to a STAGE DISQUALIFICATION (x2 = MDQ).

 

 

 

 

Thanks PaleWolf.

Issue resolved.