Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 You have three minutes, shooter to shooter. You are not a fast shooter, just like to always shoot a clean match, when one round doesn't clear the barrel (rifle or revolver). What's the call ? Rifle - - - You open the action, ejecting the spent cartridge, remove the next round from the carrier or loading gate, drop it on the table or ground, pull a blank round from your belt, insert it into the chamber, fire the blank, the "Squib" bullet hits the target, you continue the string until rifle is empty, you reload one round from your belt and fire and hit the last target - - Clean match ! Revolver - - - You fire (3) rounds, third round doesn't clear the barrel ("Squib"). Two live rounds left in chambers, you empty all spent and live ammo from the revolver onto the table or ground. You load a blank cartridge from your belt into any one if (6) empty chambers, rotate the cylinder 4 clicks, cock the hammer, fire the blank and the "Squib" bullet hits the target. You quickly reload (2) live rounds into chambers, rotate the cylinder (3) clicks, cock and fire the remaining (2) rounds, hitting the target or targets, as per stage instructions. Clean match - - - What could be the problem ? "Coyote Cap" (Who cracks himself up at times) !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 A ringed barrel, perhaps. An over pressure load almost certainly. If the blank is loaded to be load as a real blank should be, it uses a very fast powder and a wadding which will hit the slug in the barrel at fairly high pressure, and then might build from there. (Of course you know) Never fire out a barrel obstruction with any type of load, due to the (perhaps low percentage) possibility of getting a detonation or high pressure excursion. Once the TO declares a squib you are under HIS direction, not your own initiative. As for a penalty - Highly unsafe gun handling - MDQ. That WOULD be the way I'd call it. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 What could be the problem ? The blanks moving the bullet to the target do not meet the power factor or minimum velocity therefor are deemed illegal ammunition and Shooting ammunition that does not meet the power factor or minimum velocity is also a“spirit of the game” infraction. Two “spirit of the game” penalties within a match will result in a Match Disqualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 Garrison Joe, Interesting and thoughtful observation ! Where did you get your pressure data ? Unsafe gun handling ? MDQ ? You are allowed to reload on the clock ! What made it unsafe ? "Cap" (Who can't sleep with nothing better to do but stare at the ceiling or read the SASS wire). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 John Boy, Can you tell us where you got your information as to not meeting the power factor? And also, how would a "Spirit of the Game" penalty be assessed, and by whom ? "Cap" (Who is clearly enjoying, staring at the ceiling about now) ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 In 20 years in SASS and close to 4,000 action jobs and clearing impossible problems (even on the line or unloading table) with just about every model of cowboy gun imaginable, I think I'm starting to get the hang of it. A good example would be my response to the thread "97 Ejector" because it makes for accurate and good material for future use by everyone. And I have a LOT MORE gun problem cures just like that one, which will go to my grave with me unless I do something positive about it. And as Jamie Colby always says at the end of each TV show "Strange Inheritance" - - - (You can't take it with you) !!! "Coyote Cap" (Who's heart medication just kicked in) ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 If I am the TO, I will call a squib when I hear one. Any attempt at that time by the shooter to load anything into that gun will be met with a "stop" closely followed by a "cease fire". Failure to heed those commands at a range where I am the match director will result in an immediate match DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 Smokestack, Good observation on not allowing another round to be fired. That is the right thing to do. However, shooters are allowed to attempt to clear a malfunction (whatever it may be), so when you as the TO, see the shooter unloading all ammunition to make the gun safe and you yell "Cease Fire", should your instructions to cease fire result in a reshoot or a SDQ or MDQ ? This actually happened - so read on folks! "Coyote Cap " (Who woke up again - dang it) ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 I have no problem with the shooter unloading the gun. Where I have a problem is with them loading any type of charged cartridge in a gun with an obstructed barrel. If they want to pull a squib rod out of their belt or even holler for someone to bring them one, I am OK with that and I will even help them to do it safely if that is their desire. Loading a charge behind a squib is unsafe, the cease fire would only come after they ignored my "stop" and explanation. At that point I would MDQ them for unsafe gun handling. No reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 Thought I would mention - - no, it wasn't me ! It was a very good and knowledgable shooter that had a squib in his M-73, (and I'm not saying his alias on the wire), but he also does reenactment and he cleared the problem so fast, nobody had time to stop him. It was a small non-SASS match and nobody had a rule book anyway, so the MD didn't know what penalty to assess (if any) and he settled on a Procedural, stating the shooter shot more rounds than the stage called for - - huh ? DUH ? I couldn't believe what I saw, or the call made ! If you know what (obstruction) is in the barrel, how do you know it is unsafe to fire a blank to clear the known obstruction ? The part (in this thread) about the revolver "Squib" was just my way to stir-the-pot and get you guys blood moving faster! "Cap" (Who's now REALLY getting tired) ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 If you can show me where any cartridge gun manufacture says that shooting one out is an acceptable method of clearing one I will reconsider my position as to it being unsafe. Somehow though I doubt you would be able to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 The procedural was a bad call as the shooter May fire another round to make up for one that did not go down range. Easier to do with a revolves as you have an extra one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 I consider myself an average shooter: 10-12 monthly matches per year, 2-3 state or eregional matches per year, average investment, and I placed in the middle of the pack. No stage or match is worth damaging my guns or injuring myself or other shooters. If I get a squib, so be it and I will take my misses and move on. At the end of the day, this is a hobby and a game for most of us. Good post though. One never knows what another shooter might do in such a situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 Smokestack, Doggonit, that idea of yours never occurred to me about reloading the other revolver. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying if you have a "squib" in the barrel of one if your revolvers, you can hand it off and continue with the second revolver ? Say you already fired the first revolver empty and you suffer a "squib" on the last round in the second revolver, can you hand off that revolver, then load the empty chamber of the first revolver, spin the cylinder (4) clicks, cock and fire that round, hit the target to finish the stage? I wonder how many seconds it would take to do just that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 If you had only fired one round in the first revolver, and it was a "squib", leaving (4) in that gun, you handed it off to be able to continue the stage by shooting the second revolver until empty, then reloaded (4) in that revolver to finish that part of the stage - - - Anybody got a sundial ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Most probably less than 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 No body has mentioned that shooting the blank would constitute using illegal ammo- one more than what the stage description called for (a cartridge with powder, primer and an under weight projectile of the wrong material). Stage description for rifle and pistol are usually 10rounds each. and no more. Does the squib count for one of the rounds? I would think so.. Granted, if there is a dud round, or you jack one out, you call safely replace it. I don't think it would be legal either for someone to bring shooter a squib rod, but if shooter had rod on him, or one was actually on the firing line, then he could use it to fix the problem on the clock, after first, removing any remaining cartridges from rifle/pistol. Any way, that is my thought., along with what has been mentioned. Edit: I see Post #3 has mentioned illegal ammo. Cap, SASS ammo needs a PF of 60 or greater and projectile needs to be made of lead & minimal velocity of 400fps. For all purposes, a blank is a cartridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 This quasi theoretical method for clearing a bullet stuck in the bore of a firearm (a "squib") has so many possible outcomes, many or all of which expose the shooter and those around him to varying levels and types of danger, that it is simply not acceptable to consider allowing or doing it. In practice, at least in CASS/SASS environments, I'd say that the various dangers are so great that attempting it is grounds for a match disqualification. One such possible danger (single action revolver) is in exposing the timer operator to a much larger/wider blowout fan coming from the cylinder gap. Another thing is that, if a shooter is so susceptible to repeated loading of defective ammunition that he carries blank ammunition in his gunbelt to clear squibs, then he should not be shooting in the presence of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Don't know Cat, Removing cylinder from Single Action Revolver and using a legally acquired squib rod on the clock would be safe, show clear, providing muzzle direction is maintained, and there is a rule for that. Reassemble, pick up cartridges, which you can now do, and reload, index and continue. Ejecting any remaining rounds out of rifle, show clear to TO, then using squib rod while clock is running would be safe, providing safe muzzle direction is maintained would be safe. Reload the ejected rounds from where ever they fall and proceed. If TO interferred with shooter attempting to clear a squip in a safe manner would constitute a re shoot. Ya never know just how important that clean match pin is to some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Well, I'm not talking about performing safe (albeit, somewhat impractical) manipulations to clear a squib "on the clock," then resuming the course of fire. I'm suggesting that trying to clear the bore with an explosive charge (a blank) is dangerous. Also, I believe that experiencing a squib should be an anomaly, and that if shooter routinely experiences such defective ammo and clears it in an unsafe manner (such as a blank), that he should not be shooting around others. There is a provision in the rules for the TO to disallow a shooter from participation until he changes from defective to reliable ammunition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 It was a very good and knowledgable shooter that had a squib in his M-73, (and I'm not saying his alias on the wire), but he also does reenactment and he cleared the problem so fast, nobody had time to stop him. It was a small non-SASS match and nobody had a rule book anyway, so the MD didn't know what penalty to assess (if any) and he settled on a Procedural, stating the shooter shot more rounds than the stage called for - - huh ? DUH ? I couldn't believe what I saw, or the call made ! That is very resourceful of the shooter. I have never thought about sticking a blank cartridge in my gun belt. In doing so it makes me wonder if the shooter has a history of squib reloads in his gun? My main concern about a squib reload is whether there is a double charge round somewhere in pile of live ammunition. I saw this happen once at a match. Shooter and his wife had several squib rounds during the match. Finally during one stage his beautiful Schofield model blew up from the dreaded double charge I mentioned. This is the most frightening accident I have ever witnessed. I was seated on a cooler behind the shooter and T.O. when the cylinder blew up. The largest fragment of the cylinder was the outside wall for three chambers. The fragment lifted off in the direction of the T.O.'s head. Somehow when the explosion occurred the T.O. tilted his head quickly away from the gun and the cylinder fragment narrowly missed hitting him in the head. Sitting here typing this I can recall the incident as if it was happening just now. If the cylinder had hit him in the head well who knows? Getting back on track to C.C.'s post could a shooter bring a ramrod for his rifle with him to the firing line? Could he attached it to the rifle somehow? How about a short ramrod for handguns stuck in one of the loops on his belt? Click, shooter whips out ramrod and clears the stuck bullet, loads fresh round and resumes shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 The attitude that any possible procedure is acceptable that is not expressly denied is what has taken the timer out of my hands. I'm happy to let some one else deal with the legalese. I'm happy running the un-loading table or spotting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazy Eeyour Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 I carry dowels sized for both 38 and 45, short for pistol and longer for rifle. I have never had to use them but others have to clear squib loads. I don't carry a hammer as I use the weapon as a weight. For revolver just push the dowel in the muzzle and tap the pistol muzzle first against a table. For rifle, Marlin I clear from the breech, Winchester from the muzzle. Lead bullets clear with ease but I would guess jacketed bullets might over stress the dowel. I have only seen one other person carry such dowels in their shooting kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Hammer Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 C.C is just pulling our leg, right. Using another charge to clear a barrel obstruction is a classic UN-safe move. If it's a pistol you don't know if the squib left the slug in the Chamber or in the throat of the barrel. If it a rifle and the shooter was in a hurry (we all are) it might have been two squib rounds, one right after the other. Ground the gun for everyone's safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 If I am the TO, I will call a squib when I hear one. Any attempt at that time by the shooter to load anything into that gun will be met with a "stop" closely followed by a "cease fire". Failure to heed those commands at a range where I am the match director will result in an immediate match DQ. +1 They are not putting in a blank either. Not on my watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 Lead Hammer is correct ! I'm just having a good ol time. However, I got an e-mule from a fellow that doesn't like posting on the SASS wire (because of past ridicule). He said a friend if his had a "squib" in the barrel of his Marlin and nobody had a squib rod, so he decided to take a bullet out of one of his cartridges and with the RO's permission, he loaded that (powder only) cartridge into his Marlin and fired it down range into the dirt bank. Witnesses said it sounded like a normal shot being fired. There was no damage to his gun whatsoever and he continued the match . Just one more observation that maybe we simply don't know if this is really a dangerous practice. "Cap" (Who's now gotta get motivated for Winter Range) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Answer to the question in the thread title: No. Just one more observation that maybe we simply don't know if this is really a dangerous practice. With typical CAS loads/pressures/velocities it probably isn't. A well known CAS gunsmith posted a picture of a '73 barrel cut in half lengthwise that had all ten rounds stacked up in it. But the operative words here are "typical" and "probably". He said a friend if his had a "squib" in the barrel of his Marlin and nobody had a squib rod, so he decided to take a bullet out of one of his cartridges and with the RO's permission, he loaded that (powder only) cartridge into his Marlin and fired it down range into the dirt bank. Fellow that brings factory 45 Colt ammo to a match and tries that with a pistol that's not built as well as a Ruger will have a less than harmonious outcome. But you know that Cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 That is very resourceful of the shooter. I have never thought about sticking a blank cartridge in my gun belt. In doing so it makes me wonder if the shooter has a history of squib reloads in his gun? My main concern about a squib reload is whether there is a double charge round somewhere in pile of live ammunition. I saw this happen once at a match. Shooter and his wife had several squib rounds during the match. Finally during one stage his beautiful Schofield model blew up from the dreaded double charge I mentioned. This is the most frightening accident I have ever witnessed. I was seated on a cooler behind the shooter and T.O. when the cylinder blew up. The largest fragment of the cylinder was the outside wall for three chambers. The fragment lifted off in the direction of the T.O.'s head. Somehow when the explosion occurred the T.O. tilted his head quickly away from the gun and the cylinder fragment narrowly missed hitting him in the head. Sitting here typing this I can recall the incident as if it was happening just now. If the cylinder had hit him in the head well who knows? Getting back on track to C.C.'s post could a shooter bring a ramrod for his rifle with him to the firing line? Could he attached it to the rifle somehow? How about a short ramrod for handguns stuck in one of the loops on his belt? Click, shooter whips out ramrod and clears the stuck bullet, loads fresh round and resumes shooting. Sure, you can bring a "squib rod" to the firing line, disassemble your revolver or empty your rifle and tap the offending slug out of the bore, but doing so might become a project, especially on the clock. But, if I thought I needed to bring one to the firing line, I wouldn't be trying to use that ammunition. I bring squib rods in my cart. I use 11/32" brass round stock, which is a virtual precise fit for a .357/.38 bore. Obviously, it can be used for larger calibers as well. I usually use the 30" rod so I don't have to dig out the shorter 9" rod. A squib rod rarely sees much use. Probably need something like 9/32"(?) for .32 caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 That was a fun thread Cap :-). Thanks for the entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 In reality, I would do a complete teardown on the line (after letting the TO know my plan) to get a gun running as have a few long time shooters have done over the years. It isn't about the clean match, it's about getting back into the fight. If there are a dozen plains indians coming for me, I want to give them what they come for, lead first :-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 :-) :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Can you tell us where you got your information as to not meeting the power factor?* Chronographs don't lie when you get called doing this! And also, how would a "Spirit of the Game" penalty be assessed, and by whom ? * Cap,have you read your SASS Handbook lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Actually... not subscribing to whether use of a blank to clear a squib (bullet caught in barrel) is safe, (not, IMHO), it is my considered opinion that in doing so, the round "went downrange" and reloading to replace it is in direct opposition of the rules. As to the pistol... I believe the one time I had one, the bullet lodged in the throat, tying up the cylinder from rotating. But then, I don't use magnum primers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Griff - I read that reload as replacing the live round taken off the carrier when loading the blank. But I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Griff - I read that reload as replacing the live round taken off the carrier when loading the blank. But I could be wrong. But, it wasn't a "live" round taken off the carrier, it was a fired cartridge (see the spent primer), just lacked the ummph to push the bullet out the barrel; a subsequent live cartridge (blank) was then loaded, and used to push the bullet out the barrel... if the bullet then didn't go "downrange", what direction did it go? And doing that is fine, (safe or not, not being considered), it's the loading of a "replacement round" to then fire because the "blank/stuck bullet" combination didn't make it all the way to its intended target that I'm considering as loading and firing more the needed rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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