Double Cross Draw - Why Not?

[Artie Fly, SASS #25397]

A while back, I tore up my rotator cuff and could no longer make the strong side straight draw motion without experiencing intense pain. Since I wanted to honor my 2014 New Year's resolution of shooting more often this year, (which I have been able to keep), this posed a safety problem since the pain was intense enough to weaken my hand and possibly drop a loaded gun. So, I slid my straight draw holster around to my left side, where I could make the side draw motion without pain. At one of the matches I was at this year, it was pointed out to me that SASS rules are at least a fist width between holsters. Now over the past couple of years, I have put on some weight, but not enough that my body can accommodate two holsters a fist apart on my left side. Either one gun would be around my backside a la John Wayne, or the other would be in my crotch, something SASS, myself, or especially Sexie Sadie would not approve of and giving a new meaning to the perils of premature discharge. Now although I have been a CAS shooter for over 20 years, no one as ever accused me of being "competitive". I usually shoot Frontiersman and they use an egg timer or sundial to measure my times. I have always used a cross-draw, and so I am very conscious of my muzzle direction and the dance required. It does seem to me that someone (or nearly everyone) with more talent than I for shooting competitively could shave a few factions of seconds off their times, and that maybe that is the reason a double cross draw is not allowed. However, as an amateur historian, I know that many partisans would carry a brace of pistols in crossdraw fashion for easier access while in the saddle, so it is historically accurate, although I will conceed that they were not as concerned about gun safety as we are. If safety is a concern, I contend that with the current guidance on cross draws in general, it is a safe way to hang your guns. So, other than the rote answers that it is not allowed because "that's the rule" or "that's the way we've always done it", what is the rationale for the fist-width requirement? If you cannot substantiate a REALLY good reason for the double cross limitations, shouldn't we just get rid of it?

 

If a double cross draw is already allowable . . . then never mind.

[Justin O Lawman,SASS#7672]

Main match holsters must be located one on each side of the belly button and separated by
at least the width of two fists at the belt. (Note: Pocket pistol and Derringer holsters are not
“main-match” holsters.

 

Didn't find any rule against double cross draw as long as you follow the above

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Artie,

Are you wanting to have a 2 holsters pointing in OPPOSITE directions?

 

2 holsters pointing in the same direction in perfectly fine.

 

You can't have both holsters on your left side.

 

Main match holsters must be located one on each side of the belly button and separated by at least the width of two fists at the belt. (Note: Pocket pistol and Derringer holsters are not main-match holsters.)

 

Stan

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

 

 

If a double cross draw is already allowable . . . then never mind.

This last line of the OP may be why you are not hearing a lot.

[Artie Fly, SASS #25397]

Hey Stan,

 

To clarify, I meant that both holsters are on my left side. Right now, I am using the right side straight draw holster on the outside and the left pointing canted cross draw inside. This gives me some separation between the gun butts leaving more clear access to the holsters for re-holstering. I am right handed and always draw with my right hand verses left hand draw and transfer. Adding a transfer to your draw is an extra step which one is liable to muff or fumble. I tend to look my guns in when re-holstering, but I suppose one could transfer empty gun to left, then draw second gun while holstering first. I am more deliberate in movement, (read slow). Moving a holster to the right side of my belly button causes the rotator cuff problem.

 

Regards to the family.

 

Artie

[evil dogooder]

I've seen a shooter with an injured arm shoot with one cross draw and one shoulder holster. Most of the clubs around here go out of their way to help shooters with physical limitations. Not sure if it would be allowed at state or above.

 

Most match directors ive talked to are more concerned with safety. Talk to them and explain your situation. Im sure you can come up with a suitable solution for both parties

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Artie,

 

I'm sorry about your shoulder. I would say an accommodation should be made to allow you to shoot without pain.

 

I read once that they are not written in the booklets as there are so many potential items.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

Or wear two left handed holsters (one strait - one cross). Draw with your good left arm and transfer the gun to your right hand out in front of you.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

If stage design allows for it, the most common accommodation for this problem would be to simply stage the second pistol.

 

I would probably go for the shoulder holster solution above. In view of your shoulder situation, I could never see this being an issue at any match below the state level. At the state(or above) level, I would ask the MD for any available solution.

[Tom Bullweed]

I do not know of a monthly match that would have problems with a challenged shooter staging pistol to make the game safer and more enjoyable. If one existed, I would likely shoot elsewhere.

My real concern with a double crossdraw is that you through your back out doing all of that twisting or get tripped out by all of the stepping around to stay within the 170.

I hope that you get this figured out and get back to shooting more.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Asking to have two rules overlooked.

 

One being having them both on the same side. The other being so close together.

 

 

Being a slow shooter does not have ANYTHING to do with it.

We must all go by the same rules. Slow or fast.

 

BUT.

 

Having said that. If it is a medical issue. Then I think any MD would/should allow it. As long as they can

prove there is a medical issue.

That would be up to each MD. But don't think many would have a problem with it as long as they

was aware of it before hand.

 

But can not see changing the rule over it.

[Red Cent]

An appendix positioned holster with barely legal cant on the right side won't work?

[Houston CAS]

Why not wear one gun and stage the other?

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

The rule that outlaws it is not that old. It was passed to prevent a 'certain' shooter from wearing two guns on his strong side. I had a friend who had been wearing a cross-draw under a shoulder holster for years and nobody ever cared but with the new rule he was treated like the baby who gets thrown out with the bath water! I agree that if a one armed shooter shows up any MD would be very willing to allow the use of specially worn equipment.

[Blackey Cole]

Artie, get a note from your doc about shoulder problem preventing you from drawing on your right side. Remeber allowances will be made for medical issues. I suffered from rotator problems in my mid twenties and ended up with reconstruction surgery and being laid up for close to nine months before I could do anything with my left hand per the doc. So if you can rehab it by strengthening and strecthing you'll be better off if it takes months. Because either way you'll end up doing it pre or post surgery.

 

Have you thought of lowering the holster using a drop loop so you can draw from the rhs holster. True cross draw holsters are more authentic for a working cowboy. The reason the cavlery used butt forward holsters was two fold one the sabra was considered the primary hand weapon and two it allowed it to be easily drawn with either hand. The right when it was empty and the left when it wasn't.

 

Artie good that your shooting more.

[Artie Fly, SASS #25397]

I have shot this way in several matches, two out of state and at three different clubs in Texas. None had any problems with it. I understand that there are rules against two guns on one side (which by definition would include a cross draw and shoulder rig on same side), and the minimum distance between guns. I started doing this last February to accommodate the shoulder limitation which prevents me from moving my right elbow towards the rear and limits my shoulder range of motion. It was just this month that I could make a throwing motion. The real up side to shooting is that the rifle and shotgun recoil actually helps reset the shoulder and it feels better for a couple of weeks. However, since shooting that way, I began to question why there was a rule prohibiting two guns/one side.

 

What I am asking for is what is the rationale behind those rules? Two guns worn on one side is not allowed because . . .(this or that might happen).

 

Give me a specific instance of why two guns on one side is a bad thing (side-by-side, left side, one belt) or why guns must be separated by two fists and a belly button. Yes, all the alternatives mentioned could adhere to the rule or accomodate a physical limitation, but that does not answer why it exists in the first place. And Anvil Al is correct, speed of the shooter has nothing to do with it. Some folks will do anything to gain a competitive advantage and this may be seen as one, despite the fact that 90% of SASS shooters can do it with what equipment they already have. I can even envision someone using the two guns/one side idea to make a double stack strong side set of holsters with the guns low and high and very close together. Or a double stack shoulder holster even. Not the smartest of ideas considering the weight distribution, but someone would try it. I am not advocating that we should have unrestricted gun holstering styles, but there is a such thing as over-regulation.

 

Again, I'm not asking what the rule is, I'm asking WHY the rule is.

 

The shoulder's bothering me again. I need more shotgun therapy.

[Blackey Cole]

Artie you are addressing the wrong group for that answer. Your addressing the choir when you be addressing the rule governors in this case the wild bunch and rules committee.

[Artie Fly, SASS #25397]

You might be right Blackie, but they won't let me into the TG wire, I don't qualify. Perhaps a TG might have an answer?

 

Good to hear you are moving around.

 

See you down the trail.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Artie,

 

I'm sorry about your shoulder. I would say an accommodation should be made to allow you to shoot without pain.

 

I read once that they are not written in the booklets as there are so many potential items.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Hi Artie,

 

I'm a TG and I approved this post.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS Accommodations are up to the individual matches' MDs.

.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Palewolf Brunelle could probably help you a lot if you PM him

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Two holsters on one side of your body doesn't look very cowboy.

 

Stan

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Two holsters on one side of your body doesn't look very cowboy.

 

Stan

 

But to accommodate a handicap or physical condition, who gives a rats behind .????? I hardly see the relevancy there. We need to accommodate our handicapped shooters, as long as it can be safely done. Not make it harder on them for sake of "Cowboy Looks".

 

RBK

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

 

But to accommodate a handicap or physical condition, who gives a rats behind .????? I hardly see the relevancy there. We need to accommodate our handicapped shooters, as long as it can be safely done. Not make it harder on them for sake of "Cowboy Looks".

 

RBK

What RBK said!

Plus, Artie is good people. He's been taking our pictures for too many years. He needs to shoot more!!!

 

Artie, I don't know of any match director who is such a hard-ass that he wouldn't let you wear both holsters on the same side if it will let you shoot without pain. You just need to ask the MD up front.

 

Laz

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Slow your roll boys. Artie wanted to know why the rules state on on each side of your body.

 

I gave what I think is a simple answer why.

 

I'm not a match director any more so I care not to comment on his situation as my opinion matters not.

 

Stan

[Anvil Al #59168]

Two holsters on one side of your body doesn't look very cowboy.

 

Stan

 

 

+1

 

I know what you are saying.

And agree with the rule.

You have to make a rule for stop it someplace.

sounds like they have it down where it needs to be.

 

And I don't think Stan was saying to NOT allow it for those handicapped.

Just answering his question about why the rule.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Left hand Cross draw on your left side and transfer the gun to your right hand...problem solved without having to deal with the Medical Waiver crap.

 

Phantom

[Bad Hand]

Two holsters on one side of your body doesn't look very cowboy.

 

Stan

Neither does 2 holsters on either or both sides.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I have seen a couple of photos from the CW era showing three guns on the belt and that required two of them on one side or the other. Just looking at those old photos I would say they looked more period correct than 90% of what we see at the typical SASS match. Many of the guys here were around when the issue blew up and can tell you why. I was of a dissenting opinion, but then, I disagreed with the shotgun belt 'wear' rules also. I felt the rule could have been written better but some were really upset over the IJ rig and would not listen to any alternative wording. Kinda like, I'll help gore his ox, but just leave mine alone!

[Rio Brazos Kid]

I have seen a couple of photos from the CW era showing three guns on the belt and that required two of them on one side or the other. Just looking at those old photos I would say they looked more period correct than 90% of what we see at the typical SASS match. Many of the guys here were around when the issue blew up and can tell you why. I was of a dissenting opinion, but then, I disagreed with the shotgun belt 'wear' rules also. I felt the rule could have been written better but some were really upset over the IJ rig and would not listen to any alternative wording. Kinda like, I'll help gore his ox, but just leave mine alone!

 

AMEN !

 

RBK

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Great...now we're back to changing the rules...

 

Why are there soooo many that just beg to find something they don't like and then bitc...complain loudly about it.

 

If someone has a honest medical reason for needing accommodations, then they'll get it. If they are gaming the system...they'll be found out and then NO ONE will want to be around them and CAS/SASS will become a very cold place for them.

 

If you have a medical issue and can find a way to play the game without any accommodations, that would be the way to go...

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Artie, unfortunately we have to have rules like this because of the "If it doesn't say I can't, I can" guys. There is no limit to the horse s**t looking stuff they will come up with. I know you'd like for the rule to go away, but I think you're going to have to settle for accommodation.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

Don't need a rule change just go shoot!!

 

As far as looking cowboy... who cares as long as we are accommodating a cowpoke that needs it. Now there are those crotch draws that fall into what category? They are nearly two cross draws worn strong side and many are separated by the fists borrowed from a 6 year old!!

 

My own peeve that I witness while shooting here and there

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Before the bandwagon for changing the rules gets started I have some questions and ideas.

 

The O.P. does not state what model of guns he is using and their barrel lengths but the simplest way to reduce the amount of the draw from a straight drop strong side holster would be to;

 

a. Use a short barrel pistol(s) such as a 3" Storekeeper Model

 

b. in a drop loop holster

 

Lowering the holster down to along the thigh with a short barrel gun would greatly reduce the movement required by the rotator cuff.

 

If he likes shooting a matched pair it would be easy to get a crossdraw holster that fits a short barrel gun.

 

I am curious how the O.P. shoots long guns. When I had my rotator cuff repaired I didn't shoot any guns from my strong side for several months. Having had several medical issues involving mobility myself (two knees and both shoulders) I am not opposed to permanent medical accommodations such as the O.P. is asking for after solutions for overcoming the problems with legal equipment changes have been ruled out.

[Artie Fly, SASS #25397]

I want to emphasize that every place I shot at allowed the two guns on my left side as I described it. There were NO hassles over accommodation.

 

As for looking cowboy, this is historically correct for a Bushwacker (known in some places as a Southern Patriot), Desperado, or Gun Man, and probably some Lawmen. There were many physically challenged men in the West working both for and agin the law, especially after the War of Northern Aggression. Most working cowboys, if they had any firearms, had one rifle and maybe one pistol. Most SASS shooters are really mimicing Lawmen or Outlaws who carried guns all the time. So, looking cowboy, yes it does.

 

I don't necessarily want the rule to go away, I can live with it once the shoulder heals up, if ever. And I know that accommodation will be allowed as needed.

 

That doesn't explain why the restriction exists in the first place.

 

I don't have a current rule book, so if someone could quote this particular rule, perhaps that will add some understanding, such as: "In order to promote uniformity in dress, holsters must worn in this or that manner" or "In order to limit the competitive advantage of two strong side holsters . . ." or "in order to minimize the possibility that a gun is dropped while drawing or holstering, holsters must be separated by . . ."

 

Just state a valid reason why.