Double Cross Draw - Why Not?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Artie.....here's a link to the rule books.....

 

http://www.sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.php

 

Stan

[Artie Fly, SASS #25397]

Seldom Seen,

 

My rotator cuff binding pinches a nerve and restricts movement of my elbow to the rear or up and outside. Movement of the shoulder and arm to the inside of the body is not a problem, so I can support a long gun without discomfort. In fact, the recoil provides as much relief to the shoulder as a chiropracter or massage for a couple of weeks. However, it is easily aggravated and soon gets to binding again. It has improved significantly in the past months and is reaching a manageable, although continuing pain level. I usually shoot 1860 Armies with 7 in barrels, both C&B and conversions.

[Artie Fly, SASS #25397]

Hey Stan,

 

I probably should have started there. Even so, Bullet two for the guidelines on HOLSTERS, CARTRIDGE BELTS, AND BANDOLEERS states:

 

• Main match holsters must be located one on each side of the belly button and separated by
at least the width of two fists at the belt. (Note: Pocket pistol and Derringer holsters are not
“main-match” holsters.)

 

Which appears in conflict with the last paragraph of Clothing and Accouterments:

 

ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how it
would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television.

 

That being said, it would be unreasonable for a rulebook to justify every little detail in it. So the answer lies elsewhere.

 

Thank you for the link.

 

Artie

[Most Wanted]

Don't need a rule change just go shoot!!

 

As far as looking cowboy... who cares as long as we are accommodating a cowpoke that needs it. Now there are those crotch draws that fall into what category? They are nearly two cross draws worn strong side and many are separated by the fists borrowed from a 6 year old!!

 

My own peeve that I witness while shooting here and there

You and others have brought up your dislike of the "crotch holsters " . By all means if you see someone breaking the rules then call them on it. Feel free to bring your two fists and a protractor over to my rig anytime. I find it rude to complain about someone that is within the rules playing the game the way they want too.

[Bad Hand]

Seldom Seen,

 

My rotator cuff binding pinches a nerve and restricts movement of my elbow to the rear or up and outside. Movement of the shoulder and arm to the inside of the body is not a problem, so I can support a long gun without discomfort. In fact, the recoil provides as much relief to the shoulder as a chiropracter or massage for a couple of weeks. However, it is easily aggravated and soon gets to binding again. It has improved significantly in the past months and is reaching a manageable, although continuing pain level. I usually shoot 1860 Armies with 7 in barrels, both C&B and conversions.

Chiropractors cause more harm than good. The most common injury is a stroke due to compression of the blood vessels in the neck. Followed by fractures of the spine and neck, followed by paralysis. Evertime you visit one, you literally place your life in their hands.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Don't need a rule change just go shoot!!

 

As far as looking cowboy... who cares as long as we are accommodating a cowpoke that needs it. Now there are those crotch draws that fall into what category? They are nearly two cross draws worn strong side and many are separated by the fists borrowed from a 6 year old!!

 

My own peeve that I witness while shooting here and there

 

 

Have you called it???

 

If not. Why not???

 

If not willing to call it. You have no room to complain about it.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

• Main match holsters must be located one on each side of the belly button and separated by

at least the width of two fists at the belt. (Note: Pocket pistol and Derringer holsters are not

“main-match” holsters.)

 

Which appears in conflict with the last paragraph of Clothing and Accouterments:

 

• ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how it

would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television.

 

 

 

The second requirement is a general one for the wearing of gear. The first requirement specifically applies to the wearing of holsters. As you can tell by reading the holster spacing requirement, it allows a few things that the general requirement would seem to prohibit. The rules are usually interpreted as: If X is not prohibited, then X is allowed. And the detailed requirements override (if and when necessary) the general pronouncements of intent.

 

(X marks the spot.) And holsters closer together than "out at the hip" are allowed.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Two holsters on one side of your body doesn't look very cowboy.

 

Stan

 

 

Neither do sg bras and crotch rocket holsters. One is banned and universally frowned upon. The other is technically legal and winked at even tho they sure do not look the least bit cowboy or are worn as equipment would have been worn in the old west.

 

Don't need a rule change just go shoot!!

 

As far as looking cowboy... who cares as long as we are accommodating a cowpoke that needs it. Now there are those crotch draws that fall into what category? They are nearly two cross draws worn strong side and many are separated by the fists borrowed from a 6 year old!!

 

My own peeve that I witness while shooting here and there

 

 

My pet peeve as well and I suspect many many more folks. Most are not gonna bell the cat, i.e. risk the wrath of the "intense competitors" by voicing said opinion. I am not gonna be shushed about it. Crotch holsters look stoopid, period. Look in the mirror for pity's sakes. If you can look in the mirror and continue to wear your holsters where the muzzles almost touch down around your business then you obviously do not care about looking period correct. And yes I know we are not re-enactors or thread counters but that phrase "must be worn as it would have been in the old west" apparently is toothless and not to be adhered to so long as it is an item the intense competitors have chosen to ignore/violate to suit their interests. Thanks for piping up Cinch.

You and others have brought up your dislike of the "crotch holsters " . By all means if you see someone breaking the rules then call them on it. Feel free to bring your two fists and a protractor over to my rig anytime. I find it rude to complain about someone that is within the rules playing the game the way they want too.

 

 

Yes I am rude crude and socially unacceptable. I do not just dislike crotch holsters, I despise them. There may be something about my dress, riggings or comments you do not like or even despise. Feel free to voice your thoughts/feelings. My hide is thick and I cannot be made to be indignant by mere criticism. Never seen a protractor whipped out nor the need to. What it looks like is pretty much always what it is.

 

 

 

Have you called it???

 

If not. Why not???

 

If not willing to call it. You have no room to complain about it.

 

 

One does not just call stuff on intense competitors. It just is never done and you know it. And I reserve the right to complain about anything I want to wherever and whenever. What good would it do to call it. If it is technically legal then by rule the call would be denied. It may be legal but it does not look cowboy. At all. When I win the lottery and buy SASS, the first thing I do is outlaw crotch holsters. Second the empty hull rule goes away. No worries since I never buy a ticket!

[Blackey Cole]

I do not know what a SG bra is but see nothing wrong with two cross draw holsters worn toward the center of the belly as long as the holsters are not more than 30 degrees from vertical and separated by two fists width. I've concidered them myself but I'm sold on the lh09 holsters.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Blackey you do know what a shotgun bra is. It is when a shooter wears his/her sg belt WAY high and nowhere close to the navel. Illegal and never seen anymore.

 

But looks even more silly than crotch holsters

[Artie Fly, SASS #25397]

 

 

The second requirement is a general one for the wearing of gear. The first requirement specifically applies to the wearing of holsters. As you can tell by reading the holster spacing requirement, it allows a few things that the general requirement would seem to prohibit. The rules are usually interpreted as: If X is not prohibited, then X is allowed. And the detailed requirements override (if and when necessary) the general pronouncements of intent.

 

(X marks the spot.) And holsters closer together than "out at the hip" are allowed.

 

Good luck, GJ

GJ,

 

That is the best answer I have seen yet. While I am looking for a specific rationale for why two guns on one hip is unsafe or impractical or for some other reason should not be used, the detailed requirement specifically prohibits that.

 

As for crotch guns, they probably are period correct, but it would only take a sweaty thumb to have you singing soprano. Rather lose a chunk of thigh than the family jewels IMO.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

It must be remembered, many of the rules you see today were not on the books a few years back. I think the 'let me check yore navel' rule came about in the late ninetys and the idea of telling fokes where they can wear their irons was even much later. Complaints were what changed those rules SO, voicing dissent to the rules can and sometimes have caused change. The only ones who would quite your voices today are the ones who oppose the opinions that others might have! If you want something changed, promote it here on the WIRE and to any pard who would listen at the gun range on match day and if you can get enuff voices behind you, well, you will have done exactly what others have done before you to get the present rule book.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

OMgosh and goodness Artie did you really just say crotch holsters are probably period correct. Not only are they probably not they are most definitely not. It would be impossible to ride the range with those rigs

[watab kid]

sometimes when i read these threads i get the feeling there are some who prefer eliminating shooters to encouraging them , i understand the rules , and i understand the reasons for them , i also know - that we all know - exactly who they are aimed at , and i dont think they are intended to eliminate participation or shooters with physical disabilities ,

 

if this is a group that really does want to limit participation in major events so be it , but on the local level i hope there is a little more consideration given to those who have been loyal to the game and fallen on misfortune ,

 

not trying to start a fight or even an argument here , as someone getting older and starting to have some physical issues and not wanting to give up my shooting i hope those in my club dont get to all-fired high and mighty any time soon , i would gladly give up the state shoots i do every year if i fail to comply with the rules , but if monthly matches get so picky ill shoot at a different club ,

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

Have you called it???

 

If not. Why not???

 

If not willing to call it. You have no room to complain about it.

I can call it, see it and have room to complain about something that just isn't correct looking. On my big screen computer I can put calipers on some shooters knuckles and then transfer that measurement to someone's belt and see. I have asked for clarification of the rule on the TG wire to make sure it's the shooters knuckles and not some that are borrowed.

 

In the end I can only hope that all stages begin seated so that holsters can be slid back to where they oughta be or maybe those that wanna have them there should be made to leave them there when the stage calls for wearing an apron

[Anvil Al #59168]

I can call it, see it and have room to complain about something that just isn't correct looking. On my big screen computer I can put calipers on some shooters knuckles and then transfer that measurement to someone's belt and see. I have asked for clarification of the rule on the TG wire to make sure it's the shooters knuckles and not some that are borrowed.

 

In the end I can only hope that all stages begin seated so that holsters can be slid back to where they oughta be or maybe those that wanna have them there should be made to leave them there when the stage calls for wearing an apron

 

 

You say you CAN call it.

 

But HAVEW you called it when you seen it??

 

Or just complain about it.

 

 

kind of like someone that never votes. But complains about who get elected.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

I always vote go to the caucus and have called the holster thing! Both for muzzles almost touching and for not having a gun either side of the belly.

 

You sound like smeller's the feller...

[Anvil Al #59168]

I always vote go to the caucus and have called the holster thing! Both for muzzles almost touching and for not having a gun either side of the belly.

 

You sound like smeller's the feller...

 

 

Have no clue who or what smeller the feller is.

But he must be one heck of a guy.

 

All I know is. We have people keep saying they are seeing this, or they are seeing that.

 

But IF they are calling it. Then they should not keep seeing it. That tells me they are NOT calling it.

Just complaining about it.

Wish they would just grow a pair and call it when they see it. Then the problem would go away. As people

would stop doing it.

 

In 10 years. I have never seen this called. EVER.

To hear some on here. You would think it is a epidemic.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

Have no clue who or what smeller the feller is.

But he must be one heck of a guy.

 

All I know is. We have people keep saying they are seeing this, or they are seeing that.

 

But IF they are calling it. Then they should not keep seeing it. That tells me they are NOT calling it.

Just complaining about it.

Wish they would just grow a pair and call it when they see it. Then the problem would go away. As people

would stop doing it.

 

In 10 years. I have never seen this called. EVER.

To hear some one here. You would think it is a epidemic.

I think that it has just progressed from holsters worn like normal to slowly sliding in front of the legs and has become the new normal. It gets hard to call something when there are 100 people walking around that way. Then it becomes harder as some are within the rules (still looks like longhorns on the front of a corvette) and some are close. Then it becomes a matter of appearing to be a hard ass on numerous people when if folks would watch a western movie and realize no one in there is wearing two revolvers with their sights looking at each other. These folks often take their rigs off between stages which makes it harder to bring up, and they also take them off at lunch cause ya can't sit that way.

 

For years on the wire folks advocated doing the "dance" for cross draws but no one even thinks about the double cross draw aspect of two holsters in front or crotch draws. I guess because if your not reaching past your naval it's not a cross draw even though it is on the same plane. I reckon we are not historically correct, can do what the rules allow, if doesn't say we can't we can, and all of that just make sure Mr. Front holsters has both feet parallel to the firing line when he draws and re holsters...

 

P.s. Before someone tells me "ya don't gotta dance" I know... Just gotta watch that stance.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Cinch, I remember my first state match, my first year in SASS, and I had a non-local pard giving me some pointers on how to go-fast. His holsters cant and placement, would definitely be considered a crotch rig by any standards as he was not hindered by the yet to be passed (or introduced) 'two fists' rule. As a new shooter I appreciated the attention and help from an old timer though I have never reached that level of forward holster placement. Just saying, it was around to at least some degree before I jined up, so it is far from new!

 

As to what is cowboy and what is not in holster wear, no one can honestly make that call because it historically varied way beyond what we can even call safe for match use today. If you want to call something unsafe that might be smart BUT if you just want to call it because it insults your cowboy sensitivities then do not go through some of the books showing what and how the REAL characters of the 'old west' went a packing. Also remember, most SASS shooters are recreating a personna that has little to do with cowboy or horseback carry. The biggest joke in SASS is how some claim to be arguing realism while showing up on match day with smokeless loads in modern fast draw, cut down, holsters!

 

I wear my brace just forward of each hip, about three to four fists apart, when using the short barl revolvers BUT as the barls get longer I go farther forward of the hips. In both cases I also add muzzle forward cant to my holsters, ten deg for the short barls and fifteen deg for the longer ones. I am slower than Christmas SO this has nothing to do with speed or style, it is about joint comfort. I have always recommended that old guys who have joint issues try this style as it requires less flexing of the wrist and elbow while also lessening the need to lift the shoulder joint while it tries to rotate, try it sometimes!

 

Guys look back and read up on JW Hardin, Commodore Owen Perry or even Wild Bill Hickok for what would have been less than conventional carry, even for those days. Of the three, JW Hardin was the only one who touted a fair degree of cowboying in his resume, BUT EVEN THEN, when it came to gun carry, it was about fighting first and horseback was secondary. I can no longer remember if his unique holster carry was being used when he shot it out from horseback with the large possee For primarily fighting men it was all about the gun and not something decided by a rules committee! Perhaps finding what works best for match points just might be MORE like being a survivor back then??

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Is the crotch draw holster some kind of epidemic? I know I'm still new, so it may not surprise anyone when I say I have actually never seen this setup. I've also never been to a match with more than 50 people either so perhaps it's a larger match or regional thing. I will be looking for it now though, just as long as I can do so discreetly. I can't imagine too many of the cowboys or cowgirls I shoot with would appreciate me staring at their crotch.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Is the crotch draw holster some kind of epidemic? I know I'm still new, so it may not surprise anyone when I say I have actually never seen this setup. I've also never been to a match with more than 50 people either so perhaps it's a larger match or regional thing. I will be looking for it now though, just as long as I can do so discreetly. I can't imagine too many of the cowboys or cowgirls I shoot with would appreciate me staring at their crotch.

 

 

It's not anywhere close to being a big or a deal as some are making it to be.

 

Some just don't like it.

Want to complain about it as being illegal. But never have the nerve to call it if it even was.

 

Two fists apart in only 7-8 inches. So they can be still close together and still be legal.

It's just some don't like it.

 

And it only counts when they are on the firing line shooting.

Not when walking around.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

It's not anywhere close to being a big or a deal as some are making it to be.

 

Some just don't like it.

Want to complain about it as being illegal. But never have the nerve to call it if it even was.

 

Two fists apart in only 7-8 inches. So they can be still close together and still be legal.

It's just some don't like it.

 

And it only counts when they are on the firing line shooting.

Not when walking around.

 

I have clarified the fist thing and the rules as they are and can live with it, or call it if I want. It seems that if one doesn't call something then it's okay?

 

But I don't like it! If you face south and look in the mirror and your ivory grips are pointing east and west... You look like a tool. If your grips are pointing east and west then ya take one step back with your right foot your right muzzle will point southeast when you draw and your left muzzle may be pointing northwest. Like I said watch your stance.

 

Course if it helps ya shoot 125th outta 200 shooters it might be working for ya! Carry on...

[Anvil Al #59168]

I have clarified the fist thing and the rules as they are and can live with it, or call it if I want. It seems that if one doesn't call something then it's okay?

 

But I don't like it! If you face south and look in the mirror and your ivory grips are pointing east and west... You look like a tool. If your grips are pointing east and west then ya take one step back with your right foot your right muzzle will point southeast when you draw and your left muzzle may be pointing northwest. Like I said watch your stance.

 

Course if it helps ya shoot 125th outta 200 shooters it might be working for ya! Carry on...

 

 

NO. I don't think just because someone does not say something it is OK.

I just think if some sees something illegal. They should call it.

 

And who cares if they are 125th out of 200. The rule is FOR EVERYONE. Top shooter to the slowest one there.

 

And if they are legal. And someone just does not like the way it looks. DON'T LOOK.

[Most Wanted]

Lone Dog , Your hide can't be very thick if your gonna squirt over how someone wears their rig and are too afraid to call someone on something that You think is illegal.

[Curley Cole, SASS #56849]

http://sdough.smugmug.com/Art/Harvest-Fair/i-fD4cTX9/0/M/curleysct1-M.jpg

 

here is a pix of me in my scout rig. double x ala wild bill. I use it carefullyand make sure all are comfortable with me not breaking the 170

 

just my 2 cents worth

 

curley

[Train Robber 13659]

I've not read every post so this may have been brought up already.

 

Why not use a right and left cross draw and transfer from left to right hand for the 2nd pistol.

 

Train Robber

[levi littleton]

"It may be legal but it does not look cowboy."

 

Nuff, said.

[Blastmaster]

You can only call something if you are in a position of authority,,, like the TO. In addition, the person breaking the rules you so dislike, has to be on your posse and you have to have the timer in your hand. Then you can call it.

 

If the person is just walking around, then you haven't got a dog in the fight and can not do anything about it.

 

If there are 50 such dressed folks, well you are outnumbered.

[Kelby]

http://sdough.smugmug.com/Art/Harvest-Fair/i-fD4cTX9/0/M/curleysct1-M.jpg

 

here is a pix of me in my scout rig. double x ala wild bill. I use it carefullyand make sure all are comfortable with me not breaking the 170

 

just my 2 cents worth

 

curley

I have been following this post for several days and have yet to read why the double cross-draw is illegal (or if it even is). In looking at Curley Cole's photo I can not see why a double cross-draw is more dangerous then a single cross-draw coupled with a strong-side. I would sure appreciate some enlightenment and not just a reference to a handbook.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I have been following this post for several days and have yet to read why the double cross-draw is illegal (or if it even is). In looking at Curley Cole's photo I can not see why a double cross-draw is more dangerous then a single cross-draw coupled with a strong-side. I would sure appreciate some enlightenment and not just a reference to a handbook.

No, double x-draw is not illegal. Wearing two x-draws on the same "Side" of one's middle is.

 

Phantom

[Blackwater 53393]

I wear two cross-draw holsters when I shoot Frontiersman and sometimes when I shoot Outlaw. The one on my left (strong side) is pushed around next to my belt buckle when I shoot. It has a legal cant and allows me to pull the pistol smoothly without resetting my feet. The cross-draw also allows me to draw without hurting my arthritic shoulder as well. I generally pull the weak side pistol first and transfer it to my weak (right) hand to re-holster. The cross-draw holster is slid around to the front of my right hip and I set my feet with the right foot forward to avoid having to move my hips. This allows me to pull both pistols without violating the 170 degree rule.

 

I'm left handed and have some serious atrophy in my right hand due to extensive nerve damage, so I don't attempt to transfer a loaded pistol from one hand to another. My right hand is plenty strong, and I often shoot Gunfighter, but I watch my hands closely while shooting. My dexterity is not limited, but the nerve damage has left me with some loss of feeling in my hands.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Lone Dog , Your hide can't be very thick if your gonna squirt over how someone wears their rig and are too afraid to call someone on something that You think is illegal.

 

 

Never said they was illegal, said they look funky like a monkey. And if I won the lottery and bought SASS they would be. And the empty hull rule would go away. Get it right. But I been thinking about it real hard. I have bad diabetes and peripheral neuropathy and crippling arthritis. None of it is getting any better, it just gets progressively worse and worse. So I am rapidly coming to the time when I myowndangself might have to wear muzzle kissing holsters to stay in the game. And, short of having to crawl to the line, I am going to do whatever it takes to stay in the game SO never mind...

 

Write off my rantings as the mewlings of an old in the way grump with thin skin.

 

But I really don't think the majority of those crotch rocketeers are among the ranks of us physically hindered...

 

are they?

[Blackwater 53393]

 

 

Never said they was illegal, said they look funky like a monkey. And if I won the lottery and bought SASS they would be. And the empty hull rule would go away. Get it right. But I been thinking about it real hard. I have bad diabetes and peripheral neuropathy and crippling arthritis. None of it is getting any better, it just gets progressively worse and worse. So I am rapidly coming to the time when I myowndangself might have to wear muzzle kissing holsters to stay in the game. And, short of having to crawl to the line, I am going to do whatever it takes to stay in the game SO never mind...

 

Write off my rantings as the mewlings of an old in the way grump with thin skin.

 

But I really don't think the majority of those crotch rocketeers are among the ranks of us physically hindered...

 

are they?

 

My Gunfighter rig hangs the pistols pretty close to Mr. Happy and the jewels. Two shot elbows and arthritic shoulders are my excuse reason for it, but it does make getting the guns out a bunch quicker. Come to think of it, my strong side holster on the cross draw rig hangs about the same. I slide 'em apart when I'm not on the firing line, but whatever advantage I can get...........

 

I DO agree with ya' on the empty hull thing though.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Just about everyone does, someday it goes away -- someday...