Change primers or change springs

[Sonoma Steve]

I used my new Ruger Bisleys 45LCs yesterday in a match and had a number of hit primers with no bang. I just had the action worked and I think the hammer spring is either too light or a am using the wrong primer. My questions is: Do I replace the spring or switch from Winchester to Federal primers? I have a number of Winchester primers that I guess I will use for practice ammo if the forum tells me to switch.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Were the light hits or bad primers?

[evil dogooder]

Recently i sent a case of Winchester primers back. I had 43 that didn't go bang out of the first two boxes.

 

Winchester had me send the rest back. I haven't heard anything back yet.

 

 

Until i hear back from Winchester I'm switching back to my small stock of federal.

 

Usually my guns will shoot any primer.

[Assassin]

Were primers set completely, what was ambient temperature, did primers ignite after second try? There are many variables. Myself, I prefer to have spriings heavy enough to set off all brands of primers in all temparatures. If your guns are tuned so lightly you will eventually have troubles, springs get weaker, temperature, dirt, gun wear, others may have different opinions. What happens when you can not find Federal primers?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Yep - my hammers will set off anything...but ya'z gotta know if the primers that didn't go bang were good...or bad...before ya start changing springs.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Bad primers?

------------------

I see this posted almost every time some one says they have ammunition that doesn't go off after having action jobs done on their guns. The number of "Bad primers" we encounter in cas would be a serious problem for the manufactures.

 

The government mil spec on the manufacturing of primers is .... 1 failure in a test batch of 3000 from a single lot # is cause for rejection of the numbered lot and retest of twice the first test batch. (6000) Failure of a second round is cause for rejection of the entire production lot #.

Primers will be from a standard production line under mil spec requirements.

 

I would bet that the primers did not fail before the action job.

 

If the primer goes off on a second hit, again I would bet it isn't the primer.

[Yul Lose]

IMHO, the primers aren't the problem.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I'm with Clif Hanger on this. The number of times "bad primers" is named as the culprit is unrealistic. Often for this game guns are set up just on the edge of sufficient whack to ignite the most sensitive primers. That becomes a real problem in the event of a primer shortage.

Winchester is one step up in sensitivity from Federal. My personal suggestion would be to shim your springs for more compression.

 

Coffinmaker

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Yep - my hammers will set off anything...but ya'z gotta know if the primers that didn't go bang were good...or bad...before ya start changing springs.

 

This is my first thought.

 

make sure the primers are fully seated. Not just flush seated, but fully seated.

 

Contact your gunsmith and ask what springs he placed in those pistols. This is always good info to know.

 

 

..........Widder

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Try that ammo in another gun, then you'll know.

My bet-springs.

LG

[John Boy]

and I think the hammer spring is either too light

Listen to Grits advice ... me also, too light main spring. In order for the anvil of ANY primer to be crushed, the firing pin must hit the primer ... HARD & FAST

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Yeahyeahyeah...but please check the primers in a gun that you know has a heavy hammer.

 

I've had bad batches of primers...it DOES happen.

 

Checking that out first can save a lot of time and $$$$.

 

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Were primers set completely, what was ambient temperature, did primers ignite after second try? There are many variables. Myself, I prefer to have spriings heavy enough to set off all brands of primers in all temparatures. If your guns are tuned so lightly you will eventually have troubles, springs get weaker, temperature, dirt, gun wear, others may have different opinions. What happens when you can not find Federal primers?

 

 

Yep - my hammers will set off anything...but ya'z gotta know if the primers that didn't go bang were good...or bad...before ya start changing springs.

 

Before ya start changing springs the very first thing to do is determine firing pin protrusion. Rugers are notorious for have firing pins that don't protrude enough.

 

Bad primers?

------------------

I see this posted almost every time some one says they have ammunition that doesn't go off after having action jobs done on their guns. The number of "Bad primers" we encounter in cas would be a serious problem for the manufactures.

 

The government mil spec on the manufacturing of primers is .... 1 failure in a test batch of 3000 from a single lot # is cause for rejection of the numbered lot and retest of twice the first test batch. (6000) Failure of a second round is cause for rejection of the entire production lot #.

Primers will be from a standard production line under mil spec requirements.

 

I would bet that the primers did not fail before the action job.

 

If the primer goes off on a second hit, again I would bet it isn't the primer.

 

Changing springs is not an action job. One of the reasons these guns come with the heavy springs is to mask inconsistencies in manufacturing tolerances. So, just changing springs can lead to an unreliable firearm. Plus, Ruger firing pins can be a PITA to correct. Most folks just don't know how to deal or don't want to go to the trouble.

The original Colt SAA's had a spec of .045 to .055" protrusion. You are lucky if you have more than .030 in most Rugers.

With today's primers you don't need .055" protrusion but if you can get it to around .040 they will work with any primer even with the lightest of springs.

I see this all the time where CAS folks say go to Federal primers so the gun will work. Less than half of my business is CAS gunsmithing. So, there is no way I can tell my customers to just use softer primers.

On a side note, most top shooters can outrun squishy sprung guns. It's all about lock time. If the springs are slow a fast shooter will already be moving to the next target before the shot goes off. The only way around that is with lighter fire control parts. But, SASS has shut the door on that.

[largo casey #19191]

i'Ve recently had a problem with Federal 209's..I loaded up a few hundred for Fazzt Taz for EOT.We started with WB.Luckily..They would not fire in her 97..They seem to be seated too deep..I tried them in 5 different SG's..No go I sent Federal an E Mail but haven't heard back from them..Even in the box they look to be seated in the housing deep..These were loaded in AA hulls..I also loaded a bunch in STS hulls whitch seem to work OK..I checked My presses & adjustment.They seem to be OK..Has anyone else had this problem?... Largo

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

i'Ve recently had a problem with Federal 209's..I loaded up a few hundred for Fazzt Taz for EOT.We started with WB.Luckily..They would not fire in her 97..They seem to be seated too deep..I tried them in 5 different SG's..No go I sent Federal an E Mail but haven't heard back from them..Even in the box they look to be seated in the housing deep..These were loaded in AA hulls..I also loaded a bunch in STS hulls whitch seem to work OK..I checked My presses & adjustment.They seem to be OK..Has anyone else had this problem?... Largo

 

 

Yes, but it was a shotgun shell reloading issue. If you seat any 209 hard into some hulls you can actually concave the base enough so that the firing pin won't reach the primer.

[largo casey #19191]

I will start over with this topic on another post. Largo

[Warden Callaway]

I too have had a problem with 209 primers too deep. I had some that wouldn't fire that measured around .020 deep. I tried them in several guns and they wouldn't fire in any. When I loaded 12 gauge for the next match I would prime the case and measure the depth. If it was over .010 deep, I'd punch out the good primer and discard the hull. So far all have went off fine.

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

I'd go with Cliffhangers answer.

Talk to who ever did your action job and don't take no for an answer.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Whoa!!!!!!!!

 

Back up the bus for a minute.

 

1. Were these factory loads or reloaded ammo?

 

If factory ammo, then suspect the gun.

 

If reloads, the first thing to do is determine if the primers have been seated to the correct height. Primers should be a couple of thousandths subflush of the case head. If seated too high, some of the energy delivered by the firing pin is extended in seating the primer all the way, rather than denting the firing pin cup and firing the primer.

 

2. Describe what work was done to the guns. Nate is correct. Substituting lighter springs than factory is not an action job. That's why factory springs are so heavy. Unless the proper smoothing of parts is done to remove excess friction from the entire system, substituting lighter springs unmasks the inherent problem of too much friction in the system. A good way to create light firing pin strikes that do not fire primers.

 

3. I totally agree, tuning a gun to the razor's edge so that it will only fire Federal primers reliably, can be problematic if you can't find Federal primers. As has been the case quite recently.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

I started a thread on this same topic a couple weeks ago. A shooter had removed a couple coils from his Vaquero hammer springs and was experiencing your symptom with his pistols but not his rifle. He had never had this experience before, never had a squib, and uses Federal primers. It was the springs.

Easy cocking is fine but stronger springs also decrease lock time, the time from when the trigger is pulled to when the round goes off. This is important because the sights can actually come off the target during this time.

 

Fillmore

 

PS I wrote this w/o realizing Nate already mentioned lock time.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Nate Kiowa Jones,

I am well aware that changing springs is not an action job..... I stand by my statement. "I would bet that the primers did not fail before the action job."

 

The original post stated, "I just had the action worked and I think the hammer spring is either too light or a am using the wrong primer."

----new item--------------------------

I thought about bring it up but didn't. I am glad you did...."Lock Time".....

 

I have handled revolvers that have had amazing work done on them, however the Lock Time was so slow that when shooting fast, I could catch the hammer after pulling the trigger about the second or third shot. The primers would have small firing pin indentations but the primers did not go off on the first hit.

 

Light springs that slow down Lock Time are not an advantage for a shooter who is capable of shooting followup shots quickly.

 

All my Vaqueros started with coils being cut off. That was a very long time ago. Then springs came along that were being made that were lighter but had full throw. A better idea.

 

My cut coils springs have served me well. They were not cut as far as they could have been so I think this is why they still work for me today. These same guns were my test guns in the ammunition shop for 15 years +. They will set off any primer on the market. And this is my preference. My 92 rifle is stock but very smooth from wear. My Rossi hammered double has had the rebound notch moved just a bit to allow the hammer to travel farther before engaging the rebound.

 

Modifying your guns is a personal choice. And some guns do need work to make then competition guns. But work just fine as plinking guns.

 

The guns we use are put through far more than the manufacturers ever imaged. We work them hard and we need them dependable. If a problem comes up, there is probably a simple reason. Worn parts. A change in parts. A change in components in ammunition. A combination of any or all. Stop and think when did everything work correctly. Now what changed between then and when the failures started. If you can, back up a step.

 

Lighter springs may help. But they can also be too light and become liability.

 

I also agree that just changing springs is not an action job.

There is a bit more to it than that.

[Blackey Cole]

Most shooters I know tune for winchester and use federals That way if you have to use winchester primers you can. So I would increase you main spring I. The gun that had problems.