Two Spurs Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 The interesting thread about Nagant ammo usage got me to wondering. Are there any pre-1899 single action pistols NOT allowed in our game? (or rifles for that matter) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Great question, I'm going to follow this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 The 1899 Savage as a side match rifle comes to mind - no external hammer. But, then again, the Evans rifle has an internal hammer too, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 The 1899 Savage as a side match rifle comes to mind - no external hammer. But, then again, the Evans rifle has an internal hammer too, so... I'm a thinkin he was only concerned with single action revolvers. But he does say pistols, so I'll offer that the Borchardt is not legal for SASS. http://www.forgottenweapons.com/early-automatic-pistols/borchardt-automatic-pistol/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 (or rifles for that matter) We commonly refer to revolvers as pistols in this game, but I don't believe there are any pistols permissible, other than the 1911 in Wild Bunch and two shot derringers in side matches...? I was also assuming he meant LEVER ACTION rifles made 1899 or before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 The 1899 Savage as a side match rifle comes to mind - no external hammer. But, then again, the Evans rifle has an internal hammer too, so... The Evans does have an external hammer, it's on the bottom of the lever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I must admit, I've never actually held one - is that the actual hammer or just a cocking indicator of some sort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 We commonly refer to revolvers as pistols in this game, but I don't believe there are any pistols permissible, other than the 1911 in Wild Bunch and two shot derringers in side matches...? I was also assuming he meant LEVER ACTION rifles made 1899 or before. AH! I totally missed his parenthetical addition. And my response was tongue in cheek, just to carry the conversation forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruff Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 The Winchester 1895 comes to mind. Also I know at one point there was a discussion of a Sharps rifle the did not have a hammer, but I don't remember the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 It's the hammer, you can decock or cock the gun with it. I never took mine apart but it felt solid, like it was one piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Well I'll be dawged. I learned something new today! (edit) I found some detailed pics in a thread at Cas City. http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=25070.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex M Rugers #6621 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 The Winchester 1895 comes to mind. Also I know at one point there was a discussion of a Sharps rifle the did not have a hammer, but I don't remember the model. That Sharps would be the model 1878. Rex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Revolvers that have only 5 chambers are something of a gray area. Some have said to me you can load 4 and add the 5th on the clock, load 5 as long as there is a safety notch to lower the hammer on between cylinders, and that you can't use them at all. Actually, that'd be one that some official clarification would be nice on. Of course if said revolvers are clearly pocket pistols, the Handbook says that they are NOT main match revolvers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 What about the Volcanic pistol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 See below. Ain't nothing in there about five shot, four shot, seven shot or eleventeen shot for that matter. The rules covered in other areas that require hammer down on an empty chamber also allow for between cylinders or in a safety notch. Note that THAT rule is not that specific. If you got a five shot SINGLE action either load four or put it between chambers if THAT revolver is safe to do so. Nagant revolvers, seven shot single action models ARE legal. BTW, it's a simple matter to take out that DA sear and now they're SA. ALso note that there ain't nothing in there about POCKET revolvers. If you have one of those, and its single action and meets the caliber criteria....hmmm. SHB Page 10 REVOLVER REQUIREMENTS Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, their approved replicas, and the SASS approved single action adjustable sight revolvers are the only revolvers approved for use in SASS main match competition. The rules relative to SASS approved revolvers depend upon the competition category in which one participates. Sights are a major factor for determining in which category a revolver may be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of revolver and ammunition be used. Please see the shooting categories for further information. No more than two main match revolvers may be carried to the firing line. REVOLVER CALIBERS • Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. • Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt. • Standard velocity .22 caliber rimfire ammunition is allowed within the Buckaroo Category only. • Although the .32 caliber revolvers and .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers are legal, they may not be powerful enough to handle all reactive targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Silverfinger, SASS#3444 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 .......getting back to the original discussion, I believe the disqualifying factor of the '99 Savage and the '95 Winchester was because they had "Box" instead of "tubular" magazines. FWIW, Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 See below. Ain't nothing in there about five shot, four shot, seven shot or eleventeen shot for that matter. The rules covered in other areas that require hammer down on an empty chamber also allow for between cylinders or in a safety notch. Note that THAT rule is not that specific. If you got a five shot SINGLE action either load four or put it between chambers if THAT revolver is safe to do so. Nagant revolvers, seven shot single action models ARE legal. BTW, it's a simple matter to take out that DA sear and now they're SA. ALso note that there ain't nothing in there about POCKET revolvers. If you have one of those, and its single action and meets the caliber criteria....hmmm. SHB Page 10 REVOLVER REQUIREMENTS Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, their approved replicas, and the SASS approved single action adjustable sight revolvers are the only revolvers approved for use in SASS main match competition. The rules relative to SASS approved revolvers depend upon the competition category in which one participates. Sights are a major factor for determining in which category a revolver may be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of revolver and ammunition be used. Please see the shooting categories for further information. No more than two main match revolvers may be carried to the firing line. REVOLVER CALIBERS • Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. • Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt. • Standard velocity .22 caliber rimfire ammunition is allowed within the Buckaroo Category only. • Although the .32 caliber revolvers and .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers are legal, they may not be powerful enough to handle all reactive targets. SHB pg. 17 POCKET PISTOLS AND DERRINGERS Pocket pistols and Derringers are popular for use in side matches and are occasionally introduced as an additional firearm in main match stages. • A pocket pistol is a small frame, fixed sight, pre-1900 design revolver having a barrel length of four inches or less. Pocket pistols must be .31 caliber or larger. Model “P” Colts and clones and revolvers with swing out cylinders are specifically not allowed regardless of caliber, frame size, or barrel length. Pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main match revolvers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 And in case you never noticed, there are models of "pocket pistols" that MEET the criteria for main match revolvers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 REVOLVER CYLINDERS • Centerfire and rimfire cylinders may have no less than five and no more than six chambers. ... SHB p.9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 See below. Ain't nothing in there about five shot, four shot, seven shot or eleventeen shot for that matter. The rules covered in other areas that require hammer down on an empty chamber also allow for between cylinders or in a safety notch. Note that THAT rule is not that specific. If you got a five shot SINGLE action either load four or put it between chambers if THAT revolver is safe to do so. Nagant revolvers, seven shot single action models ARE legal. BTW, it's a simple matter to take out that DA sear and now they're SA. ALso note that there ain't nothing in there about POCKET revolvers. If you have one of those, and its single action and meets the caliber criteria....hmmm. SHB Page 10 REVOLVER REQUIREMENTS Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, their approved replicas, and the SASS approved single action adjustable sight revolvers are the only revolvers approved for use in SASS main match competition. The rules relative to SASS approved revolvers depend upon the competition category in which one participates. Sights are a major factor for determining in which category a revolver may be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of revolver and ammunition be used. Please see the shooting categories for further information. No more than two main match revolvers may be carried to the firing line. REVOLVER CALIBERS • Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. • Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt. • Standard velocity .22 caliber rimfire ammunition is allowed within the Buckaroo Category only. • Although the .32 caliber revolvers and .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers are legal, they may not be powerful enough to handle all reactive targets. Under this How is the cowboy 45 legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Under this How is the cowboy 45 legal? How is it NOT? Note that the rule says "caliber"...not "cartridge"....and the list of examples is not exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 SHB p.9 Doesn't the Nagant have 7 chambers in its cylinder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruff Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 REVOLVER CYLINDERS • Centerfire and rimfire cylinders may have no less than five and no more than six chambers. SHB p.9 So the Welch Navy would be illegal? Not to cause trouble what is the thinking of the no less than five and no more than six chambers.rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 SHB p.9 Well dang, when did they sneak THAT one in !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 So no Le Mats? SHB p.9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Ah, Lone Dog, the last time I looked a LeMat was a muzzle loading percussion item. Page 9 says nothing about muzzle loaders. Just center fire and rim fire. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 How is it NOT? Note that the rule says "caliber"...not "cartridge"....and the list of examples is not exclusive. Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Doesn't the Nagant have 7 chambers in its cylinder? as previously noted & quoted...the SA version of the NAGANT is a specifically allowed exception to the rule. ...and to reiterate...the 5/6 rule applies to CENTER and RIM fire revolvers... NOT PERCUSSION models (e.g. the 9+1-shot LeMat & the 12-shot WALCH revolvers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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