What's the Call with the New Rules?

[Null N. Void]

I'm still confused and need a "What's the Call", probably from PWB, with the new rules. Rifle is the second gun shot. Pistol and SG don't play a role. Rifle is picked up from the table and is to be put down on the same table. Prop failure is not an issue. Rifle is loaded with 10.

 

Shooter gets to the rifle and shoots 10 shots and ejects all 10 pieces of brass. The rifle is open and empty and is put down on the table. In the process of putting it down, the action fully shuts. The shooter procedes to the next gun leaving the rifle with the shut action on the table and completes the stage.

 

My understanding is that this is a MSV for the action being shut. After the completion of the stage, the shooter opens the action to show the TO that there is no brass or live cartridges left in the gun. He receives a 10 second penalty.

 

I'm not trying to start a war. I just want to be clear on it for the clubs I shoot at and when I'm the TO.

 

I appreciate what PWB does. It's hard to get this right when there are so many confusing things going on.

 

South Buffalo Slim

 

 

 

 

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

You nailed it.

 

KK

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

slow wifi @ motel

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

That would be correct...one MSV for the closed (empty) action.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Yes. Back to where we started.

 

WB wasted the TG's time on this one.

[Null N. Void]

Thank you PWB for the quick answer.

 

SBS

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

Just curious, was the placing of a shotgun in a vertical rack after shooting ever a part of the thinking of this back at the beginning?

 

For some reason I never had considered folks intentionally closing a SxS so it would stay in a vertical prop or rack, course I lead a very sheltered life.

 

Can see why some would feel this would hold the SxS in a better fashion, just don't understand why they would break a safety rule to do so.

 

cheyenne

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Because....it wasn't a safety rule for about 6 mos. And it is much easier, safer, faster to re-stage a sxs closed in a vertical rack. It then has the same footprint as a rifle or '97 rather than a disjointed contraption that really won't fit anywhere other than flat.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

Thanks--as I said was just wondering.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

That would be correct...one MSV for the closed (empty) action.

...and if an empty comes out when he opens the action? Another MSV?

 

Fillmore

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

...and if an empty comes out when he opens the action? Another MSV?

 

Fillmore

You are correct

 

KK

[Your Nemesis]

I guess I am confused. I thought this was what the rule change was all about. It appears that the action accidentally got closed after being fully opened

 

and cleared of any brass. The shooter came back and showed it to be clear. Tell be what I am missing. (maybe My old mind is just messing with me)

 

I see this as a no call. under the new rule. B below says shooter returns finds mt case /hull msv which indicates if nothing is found no call.

 

 

17. Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the actions/magazine/barrels

empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be

assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to

the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to

it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of

sequence, made “safe,” and then restaged.

Examples:

A Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it before firing the next gun and there is no

UNFIRED round in the chamber — NO CALL.

B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it at the end of the stage and an empty case/hull

is ejected or found in the action or chamber — Minor Safety Violation.

C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the

chamber — Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooter’s hand with the action

closed, hammer cocked, with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no

opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm

— the penalty applies the moment it left the shooter’s hand.

Should someone other than the competitor open

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

They changes it again last week.

 

The only thing that can cause an 'accidental' closure of the long gun is a prop failure.

 

Everything else buys you at least 1 MSV

 

5. A safe and sturdy place should be provided at each stage to position the shooters firearms and is mandatory to use. Whether or not they are available, it is the shooters responsibility to take reasonable care in putting down the gun. If the gun falls or closes, the Range Officer shall make the determination of fault: either Prop Failure or Safety Violation as appropriate.

RO1 p.21

 

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

 

I guess I am confused. I thought this was what the rule change was all about. It appears that the action accidentally got closed after being fully opened

 

and cleared of any brass. The shooter came back and showed it to be clear. Tell be what I am missing. (maybe My old mind is just messing with me)

 

I see this as a no call. under the new rule. B below says shooter returns finds mt case /hull msv which indicates if nothing is found no call.

 

 

17. Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the actions/magazine/barrels

empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be

assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to

the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to

it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of

sequence, made “safe,” and then restaged.

Examples:

A Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it before firing the next gun and there is no

UNFIRED round in the chamber — NO CALL.

B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it at the end of the stage and an empty case/hull

is ejected or found in the action or chamber — Minor Safety Violation.

C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the

chamber — Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooter’s hand with the action

closed, hammer cocked, with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no

opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm

— the penalty applies the moment it left the shooter’s hand.

Should someone other than the competitor open

 

Accidently or not, the re-written rule assesses a MSV is the action is not opened before the next round is fired. There is no longer any forgiveness for accidental closing of an action.

 

Fillmore

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Brother King nailed it. Went from a good rule to a subjective rule, and back to the same as before all the angst. Bottom line is that the rule clarification nullified the new rule. For six months, sanity reigned.

 

CR

[Your Nemesis]

Am I correct in my thinking and the rule has been changed again????

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Yup. Changed last week.

[Grizzly Dave]

OK, lets say the lever closed, and shooter did not go back and open it before the next gun was shot, MSV unless RO determined prop failure, which I can't think of any prop failure that would close a lever, but I digress.

 

Anyway, after the last shot last gun, shooter goes back and opens the lever, live round pops out, which is a SDQ.

 

In a rank points match, as I understand it, it would be scored as 999.99, in a total time match, as 5 seconds for each possible target, plus 30 seconds.

 

My question is this, in a total time match, would you also then add the 10 seconds for the MSV?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

NO...MISS, P, & MSVS are NOT "piled on" in addition to the SDQ...EVER

[Cowboy Junky]

Just when we had a good rule we had to go backwards?

[Grizzly Dave]

PWB - thanks.

[Buckshot Dobbs]

They changes it again last week.

 

The only thing that can cause an 'accidental' closure of the long gun is a prop failure.

 

Everything else buys you at least 1 MSV

Was this change announced somewhere?

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Was this change announced somewhere?

 

Officially, here http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223735

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

PWB & Misty Moonshine both were forced to backpedal from what was a very good new rule interpretation. True leadership consists of backing your people up. not throwing them to the dogs. Most of us understand that they were trying to defend a moving target and have lost some credibility because of the outcome, certainly not because they tried to act honorably and in good faith. The current decision leaves in place a rule that originally needed "fixing" To fret over someone closing a long gun on purpose makes no sense. The shooter needs to open the gun and eject the last empty to avoid a MSV. Closing it is another action that takes time.

 

I know, I know .... move along - nothing to see here folks. Meanwhile, I'd put a consoling hand on PWB's shoulder and buy him a Pepsi.

 

CR

[Anvil Al #59168]

PWB & Misty Moonshine both were forced to backpedal from what was a very good new rule interpretation. True leadership consists of backing your people up. not throwing them to the dogs. Most of us understand that they were trying to defend a moving target and have lost some credibility because of the outcome, certainly not because they tried to act honorably and in good faith. The current decision leaves in place a rule that originally needed "fixing" To fret over someone closing a long gun on purpose makes no sense. The shooter needs to open the gun and eject the last empty to avoid a MSV. Closing it is another action that takes time.

 

I know, I know .... move along - nothing to see here folks. Meanwhile, I'd put a consoling hand on PWB's shoulder and buy him a Pepsi.

 

CR

 

 

PWB and Misty has not lost any credibility with me at all. And I hope not with others.

As I don't put this on them. They just did the best they could with what they had.

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

 

 

PWB and Misty has not lost any credibility with me at all. And I hope not with others.

As I don't put this on them. They just did the best they could with what they had.

+1000

 

Laz

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I like the old way / new way. You must leave the action open. That way nobody has to interpret what your intentions were. I say, error on the side of safety. Leave the action open or pay the penalty.

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

I like the old way / new way. You must leave the action open. That way nobody has to interpret what your intentions were. I say, error on the side of safety. Leave the action open or pay the penalty.

+1

[Ramblin Gambler]

Practically speaking, is there any difference between the rule now and the rule a year ago? Did they just add the prop failure option?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Practically speaking, is there any difference between the rule now and the rule a year ago? Did they just add the prop failure option?

Yes.

If you leave the action closed and at the end of the stage and there is an empty round in it, you get TWO Minor safeties. ONE for the closed action and ONE for the empty cartridge.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Yes.

If you leave the action closed and at the end of the stage and there is an empty round in it, you get TWO Minor safeties. ONE for the closed action and ONE for the empty cartridge.

Incorrect. I just reviewed version M.3 ofthe rule book to verify, but that action would have still bought the shooter 2 MSV a year ago.

 

Practically speaking, is there any difference between the rule now and the rule a year ago? Did they just add the prop failure option?

They made it a bit wordier, but practically speaking, you are correct. They just added the prop failure option.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Just found a copy of version M.3 online so y'all know I ain't full of crap

 

http://www.tuscolongriders.com/SASSRO12012.pdf

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Incorrect. I just reviewed version M.3 ofthe rule book to verify, but that action would have still bought the shooter 2 MSV a year ago.

 

 

They made it a bit wordier, but practically speaking, you are correct. They just added the prop failure option.

That's pretty much it.

[Cactus Whiskey, SASS #75905]

Thank you, I think everyone should understand it now.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I am going to rename all my PDF files of the handbooks and put them in an archive file. That should only take about half my hard drive space.