Grizzly Dave Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 PWB and Misty has not lost any credibility with me at all. And I hope not with others. As I don't put this on them. They just did the best they could with what they had. +1, if anything they have gained some respect for handling a tough situation the best that they could given the system they are constrained to work within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 PWB and Misty has not lost any credibility with me at all. And I hope not with others. As I don't put this on them. They just did the best they could with what they had. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 GEEEEEZEEEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Gesundheit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Younger Requlator Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I will tell you who has lost credibility in my eyes-------and it ain't Misty or PWB. Its a "bunch" of folks who are afraid to allow the shooters to make realistic calls. Just like the empty hull in the long gun. And keeping the "Bisley" hammer rule way too long. And the refusal to back your most loyal members when there is a bit of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fontana Vic, SASS #47940 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I, for one am very glad the rule has been changed back.... and here's why. The "open and empty" rule should have never been changed in the first place. And the reason is that the new rule is UNSAFE and a disaster waiting to happen. Here is a example as to why... Let's say a stage calls for 8 or 9 rounds and the shooter "overloads" his/her rifle (seen it happen many, many times) at the loading table... because we are so used to loading 10 rounds. Shooter fires what he/she thinks is the last round, but there is another round in the rifle. The result is a rifle loaded and with a cocked hammer. More than once I have seen a rifle being hit, turned around or knocked off a table or prop by the shooter moving to the next position. Also saw the TO knock a rifle off once. Rifle could hit the ground or part of the prop and fire ... God knows in what direction. To me we always need to error in the direction of safety. Bad rule change and was brought about by fast shooters not wanting to go back and open the actions. SAFETY SHOULD OVER RIDE SPEED IN ALL CASES. If not, we as a group are headed in the wrong direction and may as well start letting people load shotguns on the move.... because it's basically the same thing. .... by allowing a loaded gun have the potential of leaving a shooters hand. Fontana Vic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho Coyote' Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Whiskey-Tango-Frank Have we lost our minds Such a publicized rule change and then six monthes last.....We were just kidding. I think think everyone should play by the rules. The rule should simple and straight forward. Like the closed and empty rule or not why the back and forth.. Just doesn't smell right Personally I always thought open and empty was the best fit. We shoot in close quarters, saftey 1st. Open and empty is the only true way to know the condition of a long gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I, for one am very glad the rule has been changed back.... and here's why. The "open and empty" rule should have never been changed in the first place. And the reason is that the new rule is UNSAFE and a disaster waiting to happen. Here is a example as to why... Let's say a stage calls for 8 or 9 rounds and the shooter "overloads" his/her rifle (seen it happen many, many times) at the loading table... because we are so used to loading 10 rounds. Shooter fires what he/she thinks is the last round, but there is another round in the rifle. The result is a rifle loaded and with a cocked hammer. More than once I have seen a rifle being hit, turned around or knocked off a table or prop by the shooter moving to the next position. Also saw the TO knock a rifle off once. Rifle could hit the ground or part of the prop and fire ... God knows in what direction. To me we always need to error in the direction of safety. Bad rule change and was brought about by fast shooters not wanting to go back and open the actions. SAFETY SHOULD OVER RIDE SPEED IN ALL CASES. If not, we as a group are headed in the wrong direction and may as well start letting people load shotguns on the move.... because it's basically the same thing. .... by allowing a loaded gun have the potential of leaving a shooters hand. Fontana Vic Some good points. Except your assumption of the origin of the closed rule is off base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Some good points. Except your assumption of the origin of the closed rule is off base. I know that it don't matter for squat, but in the 3 or 4 months where the old new rule was in effect and i was shooting, I ran the timer for a handful of folks where the rule benefitted the shooter. Each time, it was either a beginner or what some may term lower-tier shooter that had it come up. All the advanced recreational and uber competitive shooters didn't change anything that they were doing and were not having the issues to begin with. And we don't much re-stage vertical long guns round these parts, so that never was in play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I know that it don't matter for squat, but in the 3 or 4 months where the old new rule was in effect and i was shooting, I ran the timer for a handful of folks where the rule benefitted the shooter. Each time, it was either a beginner or what some may term lower-tier shooter that had it come up. All the advanced recreational and uber competitive shooters didn't change anything that they were doing and were not having the issues to begin with. And we don't much re-stage vertical long guns round these parts, so that never was in play. That's been my experience also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 F Vic, I think your example COULD happen pre summit, and now. Possibilities are there most always.......thus muzzle down range. Folks understand this is not so much about lever as it is bolt. For you TOs....how fast can you see and recognize if the bolt is in or out of battery? Are you going to call back a shooter because YOU THINK the bolt is not quit far enough out? Sure sometimes you are certain but it is those other times. Personally, I thought post summit rule was a great step to help TOs, now we are back to subjective calls from TO to TO. My opinion......and I do not think it is all about fast shooters. Actually, from one who was at EOT TG meeting today, I think new rule is worse than a year ago....but what do I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I will tell you who has lost credibility in my eyes-------and it ain't Misty or PWB. Its a "bunch" of folks who are afraid to allow the shooters to make realistic calls. Just like the empty hull in the long gun. And keeping the "Bisley" hammer rule way too long. And the refusal to back your most loyal members when there is a bit of an issue. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 F Vic, I think your example COULD happen pre summit, and now. Possibilities are there most always.......thus muzzle down range. Folks understand this is not so much about lever as it is bolt. For you TOs....how fast can you see and recognize if the bolt is in or out of battery? Are you going to call back a shooter because YOU THINK the bolt is not quit far enough out? Sure sometimes you are certain but it is those other times. Personally, I thought post summit rule was a great step to help TOs, now we are back to subjective calls from TO to TO. My opinion......and I do not think it is all about fast shooters. Actually, from one who was at EOT TG meeting today, I think new rule is worse than a year ago....but what do I know. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 GCK, You should have been there. I am proud of JT Wild and Leadringer for staying with it versus Tex....but fighting loosing battle. I feel PW did what he could but an impossible task. No help for TOs, we are now perhaps under more subjective calling than before with more penalty at stack to shooter. I am very disappointed in things I heard........but some were probably pleased as this wire indicates. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Think we now have a NFL's Al Davis in SASS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Y'all have fun trying to figure all this crap out!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 GCK, You should have been there. I am proud of JT Wild and Leadringer for staying with it versus Tex....but fighting loosing battle. I feel PW did what he could but an impossible task. No help for TOs, we are now perhaps under more subjective calling than before with more penalty at stack to shooter. I am very disappointed in things I heard........but some were probably pleased as this wire indicates. B BB, Pre-summit....if a shooter laid down a rifle with the action closed and an empty in the gun it was 2 minor safeties just like it is now. There are no NEW penalties....... I'll agree that it did make the TO's job easier but honestly the pre-summit rule was not hurting the sport either. At least there are clear cut definitions of open and closed now. If a TO is not sure then the best thing to do is SAY NOTHING......once the shooting is over have the shooter inspect the rifle with the TO.....apply penalties if necessary. Proper coaching or NO coaching is never grounds for a reshoot. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 GCK, You should have been there. I am proud of JT Wild and Leadringer for staying with it versus Tex....but fighting loosing battle. I feel PW did what he could but an impossible task. No help for TOs, we are now perhaps under more subjective calling than before with more penalty at stack to shooter. I am very disappointed in things I heard........but some were probably pleased as this wire indicates. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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