Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I know this is gonna hurt. And I have certainly been there and done that....so call me a hypocrite if you want to...if it makes ya feel better. But, WTH? is the deal with putting together all friends posses at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS of Cowboy Action Shooting? Yes, it's nice to go someplace and just hang with all our buddies. But, seriously? How do we keep the playing field level when everyone on the posse is your good buddy? No, now don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that YOU or any of your friends is a cheater. I AM saying that the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT call is more liable to get the "Well, he didn't INTEND to shoot the wrong pistol target and therefore a MISS can't cause a "P". Heck, I've seen it made. You have, too.... be honest.. you're less liable to piss off your best buddies than someone you'll not likely see again. Guess I'll be on the posse of ONE now.... What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confederate Colt Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I know this is gonna hurt. And I have certainly been there and done that....so call me a hypocrite if you want to...if it makes ya feel better. But, WTH? is the deal with putting together all friends posses at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS of Cowboy Action Shooting? Yes, it's nice to go someplace and just hang with all our buddies. But, seriously? How do we keep the playing field level when everyone on the posse is your good buddy? No, now don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that YOU or any of your friends is a cheater. I AM saying that the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT call is more liable to get the "Well, he didn't INTEND to shoot the wrong pistol target and therefore a MISS can't cause a "P". Heck, I've seen it made. You have, too.... be honest.. you're less liable to piss off your best buddies than someone you'll not likely see again. Guess I'll be on the posse of ONE now.... What say you? I'll posse with ya BK......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakey Merlot Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Howdy Brother King, While I understand what you are saying, I'm not sure I agree completely. If Merlot and I go someplace new and they posse us with people we shoot with at home, that's ok. I like them, but I'm not going to do anything against the rules. Nor would I treat someone I didn't know any differently. Maybe that's just me. Of course, I'm shooting for fun and friendship, so winning isn't at the top of my list. I expect to be seriously roasted in the new slow shooters post once some of the folks I shoot with read it. I do prefer, when going to a new shoot, to posse with at least some shooters we don't know because that's how we have made friends. I think what you are talking about has happened, but not around me since I've been shooting. Any friend who gets PO'ed because you made a call they didn't like is either having a bad day or isn't really a friend. Just my humble opinion. Shakey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I never seem to have that problem. I don't have enough friends to fill a posse and most of the time I'm on the "posse me with anyone but Larsen" group. Actually, being on a posse with people you don't know gives you the opportunity to meet new people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I get what you're saying. I don't shoot with people like that but I know what you're saying. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 One should have the freedom of choice because many folks travel together to attend a shoot. So WHY shouldn't they shoot together, if they wish? Like ask'n, why did you choose the category you shoot. 'Cause you wanted it------ LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Nobody wants to posse with me, might help if I'd bathe more than once a year, but I reckon once is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I agree with ya, when you travel shoot, shoot with different folks, shoot outside the box, you will end up making new friends in the process back home ya can still shoot with yer local friends, (all the time) mileage will vary and even at shoots like EOT, there is pleany of time to camp fire visit with yer local comrads in arms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattler Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 One should have the freedom of choice because many folks travel together to attend a shoot. So WHY shouldn't they shoot together, if they wish? Like ask'n, why did you choose the category you shoot. 'Cause you wanted it------ LG Not much more to add!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 One should have the freedom of choice because many folks travel together to attend a shoot. So WHY shouldn't they shoot together, if they wish? Like ask'n, why did you choose the category you shoot. 'Cause you wanted it------ LG Seriously, LG, sometimes I think you take the other side of an argument just to be contrary. It would be like having umpires from each team because they could ride the same bus...why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattler Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Seriously, LG, sometimes I think you take the other side of an argument just to be contrary. It would be like having umpires from each team because they could ride the same bus...why not? If we were shooting for "Cash" I would buy that, but this is just for fun!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I do believe that "HOT DOG" posses have one up over other posses. NO, not because they cheat, but because they are more likely to have the best TOs and spotters.....and know the rules better too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Seriously, LG, sometimes I think you take the other side of an argument just to be contrary. It would be like having umpires from each team because they could ride the same bus...why not? Really-Sometimes I think your just a 'pot-stirrer' Your try'n to fix somedangthing, that ain't even broke....... This is a GAME-That's played for FUN LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 I do believe that "HOT DOG" posses have one up over other posses. NO, not because they cheat, but because they are more likely to have the best TOs and spotters.....and know the rules better too. Yeah, some... but I sat there and watched two TG's and RO2's and PM argue that it's NOT a "P" for a pistol shot hitting the wrong pistol target because the shooter (friend and relative) didn't INTEND to hit it. ARE YOU SH****ing me? Don't even get me started on RESHOOTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Fiddler SASS Life 10127 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Just add a couple of experienced shooters that are not in that circle of friends and that problem is solved. I have shot on many hot posses and we have never minded a few others added like that. -tex fiddler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattler Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I do believe that "HOT DOG" posses have one up over other posses. NO, not because they cheat, but because they are more likely to have the best TOs and spotters.....and know the rules better too. I totally agree with you and that is why a lot of them want to shoot together because they know that they will get a correct call "Not" a benefit of doubt call!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I totally agree with you and that is why a lot of them want to shoot together because they know that they will get a correct call "Not" a benefit of doubt call!!! sometimes on "lesser" posses you get dinged when you shouldn't have as well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 If we were shooting for "Cash" I would buy that, but this is just for fun!!! I totally agree with you and that is why a lot of them want to shoot together because they know that they will get a correct call "Not" a benefit of doubt call!!! All these games are "just for fun"...so? If you win the CMSA Nat'ls you get about enough money to put diesel in the truck. Let's face it... the only one making any money in SASS is Evil Roy. So? What does that have to do with a gang of 10 or even 20 ganging up on the PM ....don't tell me that you haven't seen it happen... HECK! I've been ganged up on over a call I KNEW was wrong. Then you're standing there arguing with the PM in favor a awarding a penalty. Who is going to do that? No one.... that's who....and our sport suffers because of it... fun or not... don't we in SASS want to be taken seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 sometimes on "lesser" posses you get dinged when you shouldn't have as well.... OK, Shy Annie.... how about you explain now the difference between "lesser" and "experienced or superior" posses and how that's fair to the other shooters? Maybe call Rattler John for air support..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattler Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 What does that have to do with a gang of 10 or even 20 ganging up on the PM ....don't tell me that you haven't seen it happen... HECK! I've been ganged up on over a call I KNEW was wrong. Then you're standing there arguing with the PM in favor a awarding a penalty. Who is going to do that? You're just adding to my argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 Uhh....no...you didn't think that thru, RJ. If 10-20 buddys are arguing "NO P NO P" when the shooter dorked one into the wrong target that PM is going to listen to all his pals....not the lone voice that just happens to be right. Ask me how I know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattler Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Brother King, give me a call. It might be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I do believe that "HOT DOG" posses have one up over other posses. NO, not because they cheat, but because they are more likely to have the best TOs and spotters.....and know the rules better too. They also know how to push each other and get the most out of each other. I have been of a few of those friends posses. But all calls was made. Even match DQ's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 My friends, and heck, even my wife, are absolutely just as apt to call a penalty on me as they are on anyone else. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Now, with that being said, there are certain TO's and instances that a TO who is familiar with YOU are more apt to keep you on track than others and that will/could give you an advantage or possibly keep you from being disadvantaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I entirely understand what you are saying. And yes it does happen. My personal experience has actually been the opposite. I've lost a couple major matches by some very good friends making the WRONG call on me because in the end they did not want to make it seem like they were favoring me. They had doubt and they did not give the benefit to me. And they also admitted it after with no extraction needed from me. You know what thats the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. I am still friends and shoot with them. A couple have made the decision to no longer spot or TO for me. Thats up to them. For me part of my entertainment dollar value is being able to shoot with who I want to. I also respect that as a match director and do everything I can to make sure that happens for shooters. I gave up worrying about how other folks play a long time ago. If you are willing to cheat to win and can live with yourself then so be it. You can't control everything in this game and keep it fun at the same time. Interesting thread BK, I get where you are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 BK, I'm not arguing for a friends posse, or necessarily against, just how things are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT Wild Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Rattler John and Brother King are both my friends so I like this fire or I would keep things to my self. I usually only ask for two or three to posse with, and I just hate to shoot with one shooter (JT Wild) and I always get stuck with him. That's another subject for another time. We know that some shoots go better with better posses than others ( more knowledgeable shooters). I have corrected as head OR or Match Director many bad calls because they thought they knew the rules. These things wouldn't come up if they all knew the rules but that's ok we just need to get it correct in the end. You are both correct as some are perceived and some do happen. Sorry to say it but buddy shit does happen, shouldn't but it does. Even though we aren't shooting for money it does cost each of us to get there and play, so it is for money. We all are motivated by bragging rights also. We want others to see that we do shoot well (recognition) and that can lead to gray areas and worse than gray areas. With this all said I would be in favor of only so many on any one posse (like five or six). But every one to the same standard, we all know that you can ask for these three and they ask for those three and on and on to get the domino effect (never thought of that one did you). Also don't think that match directors don't know what happens and set posses how they want to even the playing field. I don't like all the stories that I hear after major matches about the things that went on, some founded and some not. So with all this said I'm presently making the posse lists for the Utah State match next month, it won't happen here. You will meet new people and you will have a great time or my name isn't mud (or is it). We hope you will check out WWW.Dixiedesperados.com and get your registrations in soon. We are up to 170 shooters and max is 240 with only three weeks to go. Small shameless advertisement!!!!!!! But then you know me. I also made sure the posse lists we blended at Winter Range Wild Bunch, get out there and shoot with other new shooters and don't depend on crutches. Love Ya All JT Wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 One of the most difficult thing for a Match Director has to do is make up a Posse list for a major shoot. 1 - Who is currently mad at who 2 - Don't put the ex on the posse with ___________ 3 - So and so hates the smell of black powder 4 - Should I limit the "posse with" list" 5 - So and so doesn't want to be on a posse with ________ 6 - etc With the above in mind, you need a good posse leader that knows the rules both SASS and local, and at least two or more HEALTHY TO/ROs Let the juggling begin from here. New shooters (first time at this match) may be more comfortable is they have at least one other person they know on the posse. Note to self - Never make JT Wild and Ace of Hearts entertainment directors of a posse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Let's face it... the only one making any money in SASS is Evil Roy. So? Really? What's your source for this statement? LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombstone Tex Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Brother King, I have to say, I see where you are coming from for sure. I may echo some sentiments of other in what follows, but understand I know where you are coming from as far as leniency and fairness are concerned. In every shooting sport, I mostly don't go by myself, I either go with friends or my brother. And I have to say, I love competing with them directly on the same group/posse. It provides hours of busting chops and rubbing each others faces in it after a match (in good fun of course). I have certainly been separated from time to time and have made new friends...as well as some that are too serious for my liking, just there to win types, but preferentially, I enjoy shooting almost head to head with people I am close with and talk to frequently. That atmosphere helps us get better as shooters, or just enjoy busting chops. There is one group I hope to shoot with all the time at local IDPA matches because we simply have a great time, lots of jokes flying around, a really easy going group of folks who take busting as good as they give it, no hard feelings. I don't know these guys outside of our shooting though, so our talk and catching up is almost always at matches, which is definitely different than having a posse full of friends and relatives you see all the time. But I also must say, friend or not, the calls (IN MY EXPERIENCE) are always made by the book. I've gotten P's numerous times for one thing or another. Again, I tend to think it makes me a better shooter, more aware when a gun is in my hand, which I cannot complain about one bit. But again, everyone is held to the same standard that's why I tend to like shooting with folks I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosscut hardy Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 BK, I have seen this happen on more than one occasion and do not like it at all, and have tried to speak up but when you try to speak up about something like this or something similar it is really rare if anyone at all will speak up and back you. ...crosscut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I spend a lot of money to shoot places like EOT...worth every bit of the $$$$. But, it's also the only chance I have to shoot with friends that are from other places...so it's important to me to shoot with a posse full of these friends. Why take that away from folks? Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 If we were shooting for "Cash" I would buy that, but this is just for fun!!! ya but even for fun, loaded posse's can change results, just by who counts for who, who times for who, etc (specialy if a shooter only allows xyz to count for them - for what ever reason) just for fun, I like to know that I get beat by ligit means I aint sayin friends should not be on the same posse just sayin there can be a gray area like always we both know that is possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond S Doug Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 .. the only one making any money in SASS is Evil Roy. I understand the intent of the original post and yes I have seen people do things that appear to be cheating but I couldn't be sure about it. I've even heard of people admitting it...but alas they have to live with their lack of integrity. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game at all, although I will be the first to admit I'm just here for the fun. That brings me to the above statement that I find in bad taste, maybe bordering on insulting. SASS gets my membership fees, some organizations have gotten my match fees, several FFLs have gotten paid for my transfers, several gunsmiths have gotten paid for my action jobs, several merchants have gotten money for my clothing and a few leather smiths have gotten money for my leather, and yes I have some Evil Roy branded merchandise. So from my saddle it seems that I am one of the few that is NOT making money in SASS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I'll let ya be on my gate posse@ EOT, BK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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