Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

owen judice

Is it time for a change at SASS

Recommended Posts

Many have said this and I'll say it again.

 

SASS is a privately held for profit business...currently.

As a business they have to pay attention to their customers, but they also have to pay the bills.

Everyone thinks SASS makes a ton of money because there are 100,000 members. Misty gave us the real deal. Only 35,000 or so. And 7,000 life members who now pay nothing to get the CC and the other benefits.

Membership has been declining which means revenue is declining.

Vendors aren't buying adds like they used to = revenue is down.

The cost of printing and mailing the CC has gone up.

Attendance at the regional and EOT matches is down = SASS revenue is down.

NCOWS is a great organization but it sure isn't SASS. No gun carts, no action jobs, historically correct clothing. Focus is on the history not shooting.

SASS can't afford to print the CC but then gives you the option to get a printed copy if they get a minimum of 5000. If you want it step up and pay for it.

Go ahead and go get some lawyers involved to sue SASS over a perceived contract to get a printed version, they'll laugh at you.

The cost of insurance is up.

People need to get paid.

The size of the internet set-up SASS has can't be free.

Etc. Etc.

Cowboy up and understand this is a business and they must do what needs to be done to stay in business.

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am glad to see some, kicked off with Buffalo Dick and Billy Bonney, start to stand up for SASS. I can't add to what they have said, but I want to lend SASS my support in all this. It costs to run a business, whether for profit of non-profit. I love this game! It is of the utmost importance that SASS continues whether I am shooting local or major matches. I don't care whether I get the chronicle on the web or in the mail box. All you griping seem to have computers to get on so what's the big deal? If this is what is necessary to ensure the future of this game as we know it, hey, go for it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What if SASS had given me notice before I renewed for the 13th time, maybe my wife and I drop her membership and use that to pay for the printed CC, wouldn't we be supporting SASS, CAS and the CC. Were not given that choice. How about this "What If", you save your money for a year to go to EOT. You want to stay at a nicer hotel, eat at nicer restaurants so make sure you have enough money and you sure to cover all the bases. When you get to EOT to sign in they say that will be 20 bucks more, when you ask why you are told "Well we have been loosing money for the last couple of years and we need to make that up". Of course you pay the 20 bucks but would it be right. And let me say it again does any one remember "THE VIP AREAS AT EOT". Shooters complaining about that got things changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing...

 

Having a organization that gives structure to the game is worth $$$ in my book...

 

Perhaps one of you can start another organization for Cowboy Shooting and do it...better???

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

Yep. What Phantom said.

 

There have been several Cowboy Shooting associations formed besides SASS. Let me note that I have NOTHING against any of these organizations. But none of them have been nearly as successful as SASS. SASS has apparently hit the sweet spot as far as Cowboy Shooting!

 

Does anyone remember WASA (Western Action Shooting Association)? They ceased to exist years ago.

 

Western 3-gun. It appears to have been a success on the West Coast. Lorelei and I joined the National organization years ago, but never could get any traction with it around here. I finally let our memberships lapse.

 

NCOWS (National Congress of Old West Shooters). We had a club in the area that shot SASS one weekend day and NCOWS the other. They've since dropped the NCOWS shooting due to lack of interest.

 

I'm going to continue to support SASS because I liked them as a for-profit organization, and I think I'm gonna like them even better as a not-for-profit organization. As others have said, they provide worldwide continuity for this terrific game, and even if that were all they provided, it would be worthwhile supporting them.

 

Laz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What if SASS had given me notice before I renewed for the 13th time, maybe my wife and I drop her membership and use that to pay for the printed CC, wouldn't we be supporting SASS, CAS and the CC. Were not given that choice.

Well, they've given you notice before you renew for the 14th time. So there! Now you can choose whether or not to renew.

 

Like Phantom says, "Oy!"

 

(Charlie, I gotta say, sometimes that just covers it all!!!!)

 

 

Laz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Lazraus SASS took my renewal on Feb. 11 THEN let me know about the change and by the way I didn't get the "Letter about the change email" but did get the 1 with the March CC in digital from. This is my 14th year, 13th renewal. This is very poor customer service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I was Misty right now I would offer every one of the public whiners a full refund of their dues, make this forum for members only, and offer all of the released aliases up for others to use. Also, of the 100,000 SASS IDs if there are only 35,000 active members, I would recycle all of the remaining 65,000 aliases and offer them up for folks to do a name change for $10 a pop. Might bring in a few dollars, and would make finding a new alias that much easier!

 

Then the new non-members can sign up for a subscription of CC if that is all they want from here.

 

As a new member I am disappointed of the lack of graciousness and common sense from some of the "members" here. I am always happy to support any organization that sponsors, governs or otherwise organizes the activity in which I am interested... For $35 a year, a tiny fraction of what we all spend on ammo alone each year, it is hardly worth complaining

 

For Pete's sake, you probably used more in electricity to whine online (especially if you live in CA ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I was Misty right now I would offer every one of the public whiners a full refund of their dues, make this forum for members only, and offer all of the released aliases up for others to use. Also, of the 100,000 SASS IDs if there are only 35,000 active members, I would recycle all of the remaining 65,000 aliases and offer them up for folks to do a name change for $10 a pop. Might bring in a few dollars, and would make finding a new alias that much easier!

 

Then the new non-members can sign up for a subscription of CC if that is all they want from here.

 

As a new member I am disappointed of the lack of graciousness and common sense from some of the "members" here. I am always happy to support any organization that sponsors, governs or otherwise organizes the activity in which I am interested... For $35 a year, a tiny fraction of what we all spend on ammo alone each year, it is hardly worth complaining

 

For Pete's sake, you probably used more in electricity to whine online (especially if you live in CA ;)

Well said. Some of these folks must be democrats as they seem to have an "entitlement" mentality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, isn't that nice. If you don't run with the herd you're a whiner or a democrat.

 

The whole crux of the matter as I hear it from Owen is not the amount of dues. It those of us who have been around a while who were told that part of our yearly or life dues was to pay for the CC. Now that is no longer true, in fact my understanding is that for quite some time you had to pony up an extra $10 a year if you wanted the printed version. Now we are told that in fact none of our dues were ever used to support the printing and distribution of the CC. Now we are told that because of the economy, the lack of paid advertising, the dwindling of memberships and some lawsuit that the CC will no longer be available unless 5000 people desire to pay another $35 per year to have it printed for them. I see no reason to denigrate someone for speaking his or her mind in a somewhat free society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SASS is a for profit business, we get it. Don't need to keep saying it. As a private concern their finances are their business alone. Don't need to keep saying that either. We all understand.

 

But we are all paying customers of that for profit business and different customers value some products more than others. These products were offered as included in the yearly fee. Accept that we are all different in that regard. Personally, I do value the printed CC. And since it is self-supporting (as many of us are just NOW finding out) then I hope things like EoT and the convention are also self-supporting and that NO customer fees go to support any part of those. That would include any and all lease payments made to the owners of Founders Ranch. I am one of those that believes EoT should be held at different venues around the country...and even OUT of the country. EoT in Germany! Whoooo-hooooo I'll start saving for that one. OK, I know, not realistic.

 

I think SASS turning into a non-profit is the best thing they can do. It's like hitting a reset button. I will support them through that change....provided it is timely. I also hope that they will then accept the many offers of free labor/skills from their new "members" that may off-set some costs and benefit some of the vents. I also hope they survey the membership as to what we value and want offered in the organization. My feeling is that what comes out of survey might not be what the WB thinks. Just a feeling.

 

SASS is the best organization for CAS, but SASS is not CAS. CAS's strength is from the local clubs. And the two I shoot at have somewhere near half the monthly shooters NOT belonging to SASS. They tell me they don't see the value in SASS. Not only do the they not want to read or receive a CC, they don't want a badge, a membership card, read the wire, or go to anything other than a small annual match from time to time. These people too are Cowboy Action Shooters. They know about SASS but other than using SASS rules (and those are proposed/adopted/amended by volunteers) they just don't see the value in it. I do, which is why I joined. But that doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion or point out where the service was lacking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

perhaps the local clubs need to git some gahoonahs and reguire shooters to be members,,,, a whole $3 a month,,, wow,,, 10 c a day.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I joined SASS as an organization that promotes the sport and works at keeping reasonable standards. Even though I do attend shoots locally that do not require SASS membership, they all follow SASS rules. I am also excited that I have signed up for two SASS State shoots so far and will also register for two more when the forms become available. I have completed RO I and have signed up for RO II at one of the sanctioned shoots.

 

Look at the annual cost of membership. Try to go out and buy a hamburger and two beers with your wife for less than that!

 

I will miss the CC in paper form. I am not sure that I will pay extra to have it in that form yet, although I may to spread the written word. I do like the fact that I can leave it at other shooting clubs I belong to (I support 5 clubs in my area) because I think it is important, and I have gotten some people interested through this document. I will recommend that maybe they can at least print one or two issues a year.

 

My thoughts for the gentleman who started this post is to reconsider his membership. It is so important to support organizations that promote the safe and fun aspects of shooting sports. I would hope that you are all members of the NRA as well. While we never agree with everything that any organization will do, looking at the bigger view of what they do for all of us and our freedoms is well worth it. If money was the issue for me, I would give up a shoot or two and continue to support SASS and other organizations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I joined the NRA in the mid 1960s. I joined because I had to. Virtually every rifle and pistol match was "NRA sanctioned" and you could't shoot if you weren't a member. At that time the membership fee was a burden as I was a sub-mimium wage worker back then. (Mimium wage was about a dollar.) Nevertheless I ponied up and joined. I haven't shot an NRA match in over 30 years. However, I am still a member because I believe NRA membership serves a larger good. All I get from the NRA is an increasingly thin copy of the Rifleman and a couple of dozen phone calls a month asking for more money. Have I quit? Nope. A lot of magazines are having to go to electronic only to stay viable. I expect the NRA will have to switch to electronic only at some point. Will I quit because I "bargained" for a paper copy? Nope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Change is a bummer - especially when it is a negative change. It is only logical and "fair" to ask why.

 

But at a certain point, we have to understand business and economics. If that organization doesn't manage costs, it will eventually go away. If an organization tries to manage costs and still cannot make it, something has to go.

 

If that doesn't work, the organization will go away.

 

Many seem to think that the "cowboy way" is to become a charity - with no apparent source of funding. So the organization should keep what the customer sees as a promise - even if the organization no longer exists?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoy the printed Chronicle...therefore I am happy we may have a chance to keep receiving it. I hope it works out. If not, well, as you can see, I have a computer and know how to use it!!!! Never did I see that my dues was used to put out the printed Chronicle, just that membership included a version of it. Digital is a version of it. Anyone who moans and says they will quit over this very small part of SASS would have found some other reason to quit anyway......this is called supporting a sport you love, our Constitutional Rights, and respect for all the work done for YEARS and YEARS by the Wild Bunch. So, lets see you put your money where you mouth is, and start your own Cowboy Shooting club, with members worldwide, rules, a newspaper, affiliated clubs and businesses, Conventions, employees, and be sure an tell us just how easy it is, all for around $50 a member. Geez.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To those who don't belong to SASS or who are contemplating not renewing I would ask this. When was the last time you saw something local or national about shooting sports other than CAS? I know of several shooters who never owned or fired a gun before becoming a CA Shooter, there are few other shooting sports that can make that claim. I certainly think SASS has made some errors in judgement and have had my differences with the WB while I was a TG, but like the NRA they promote safe and fun handling. It's by far the safest shooting sport I have been involved with and that's no accident (no pun intended). Whether I get the CC in paper form or not is not the issue, the ability to have a venue to shoot my guns is the bigger picture. We can stand together or fail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Hoss Carpenter, SASS Life 7843

I have been in SASS quite a while' I remember the CC being quarterly or was it bi monthly? I have been a Life Member for a long time, and I would tell you I have never had so much fun and met so many Great people all over this country. SASS is not perfect, as is any large organization. I have been a member of NRA, NSSA, ATA, IDPA, IPISC. SCCA, NHRA, National Corvette Museum, etc, and all of them charged a membership fee. Without organizations, no hobby or club will last. Stick with SASS and let's make it all the better we can. I will certainly miss the printed CC, but life is too short to waste on complaining and whining.

 

Hoss C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm sorry to see the printed CC go away also..It's much harder to wrap fish in it digitally! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My wife (Lucky Wheeler) & I have been SASS members for over a decade. It's given us something (else) we love doing together and we've met true friends; both here and abroad.

 

We went Life......not to save money, but as a gesture of support to an organization that's given us so much. I'm the "tech" person in the family - Lucky is not - so we'll pay the $35 for a paper copy of the CC 'cause she prefers it.

 

When I lived in CA I tried to get folks involved in 2nd Amendment/Pro Gun/Right to Bear Arms rallies......and didn't have much luck. I'm bringing that up because it always amazes me how many folks will b*tch & moan about SASS and other shooting organizations........but won't get off their butts to physically do something that really matters as respects the future of our sport.

 

So quit the whining. Support SASS and become involved doing something positive for our sport and our 2nd Amendment rights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think everyone has their own opinion on what SASS means to them. I have noticed that most of the replies not caring about the CC are from pards who do travel to state, regional and national matches.

 

Those of us who do not travel are the ones who have to think about the way things are going because SASS does not contribute anything other than rules to local club monthly matches. And the wire could be used as a guest.

If the wire was just for customers then it would be something for those who do not travel to think about or move to sites that do not charge.

 

I for one have to think about things. I will never be able to afford a travel of more than 2hrs without considering the cost of staying over. And that would keep me from going. The local club I shoot at is not SASS affiliated.

 

As for the wire. I feel I have made some friends on here and also gotten some help along the way. I also feel I have paid the help forward a few times. And the friends I have made I know I will probably never meet because I can't travel to these large shoots. So to me the Wire is something I have to think about since the cost of just the WIRE will be the only thing keeping me with SASS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well where do I start, again I am a member of SASS, TEXAS STATE RIFLE ASSOC. and the NRA. In 2000 I helped start a CAS club from the ground up. Since then in have written stages for more the 125 match's, that 6 stages a match, 2 copies of the scenarios for each stage. Thats 750 copies all printed at home at no cost to my club. I have been and continue to support the shootings sports. In 2008 my wife lost a very good paying job and now makes about 1/2 of what she made in 2007, try loosing 25% of your total family income and keep your home and memberships in all of the above.

I still find it funny that when some of you complained about the VIP areas at EOT a few years ago that was Ok. But I cannot talk about poor customer service from SASS.

Now for the Paul Harvey rest of the story, on Sunday March 9th I sent the SASS office an email about the CC and my Membership. I know they are not there on Sunday.It is now 3 full business days later and no-reply. Go Team SASS Ra Ra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets see, I read that if I want milk gonna have to help pay for the cow. Well, my milk has become digital now and I really have a problem, but don't complain or else. If S.A.S.S. were to go away I have a feeling my local club will still shoot, I'll pay the yearly club fee along with the shooting fee when I shoot with them. Probably still offer the yearly shoot and program that goes with it. Nope, don't think if S.A.S.S. went away it would really effect the local club, but only if the members allow it to destroy their club. Just like everything else, those that are there for having fun, will still be there doing the work and having fun! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I do believe in being a paid member.

 

BUT.

 

Have said that and having posted on this.

I DO see OJ's point.

It is not that they did it. They changed what you got as a member AFTER taking

your dues.

It is sort of a bait and switch.

 

But to me. The dues are low enough for what I get. I would not worry about it.

Then if it still bothers you next year.

Vote with your feet then.

 

But with the path that Misty has it on right now. I think you might miss the boat by not joining.

 

I also think you are missing the boat by not going to bigger matches. At least State. Good promotion

for your own club.

 

You can not expect them to come to your club. If you are not willing to go to there's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets see, I read that if I want milk gonna have to help pay for the cow. Well, my milk has become digital now and I really have a problem, but don't complain or else. If S.A.S.S. were to go away I have a feeling my local club will still shoot, I'll pay the yearly club fee along with the shooting fee when I shoot with them. Probably still offer the yearly shoot and program that goes with it. Nope, don't think if S.A.S.S. went away it would really effect the local club, but only if the members allow it to destroy their club. Just like everything else, those that are there for having fun, will still be there doing the work and having fun! :)

 

 

That's funny.

 

Talking about a club that Host's the SASS MO State Championship pretty much every year.

 

You don't think that HELPS your club??? :blink:

 

You don't think having 200-300 shooters one weekend a year instead of the normal 30--35

helps the club??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

That's funny.

 

Talking about a club that Host's the SASS MO State Championship pretty much every year.

 

You don't think that HELPS your club??? :blink:

 

You don't think having 200-300 shooters one weekend a year instead of the normal 30--35

helps the club??

 

 

 

That's funny.

 

Talking about a club that Host's the SASS MO State Championship pretty much every year.

 

You don't think that HELPS your club??? :blink:

 

You don't think having 200-300 shooters one weekend a year instead of the normal 30--35

helps the club??

Just ask any club how much they make sponsoring a State Shoot compared to the amount of work put into it. Not that much. And why wouldn't there still be a state shoot for anyone willing to come?? Why would S.A.S.S. be needed??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been a SASS member a very short time but I had thought about joining for the last 2 years. I didn't join for a monthly paper, a sticker, a badge etc. I joined because I believe in the people and the organization. I figured where else can you dress up like your favorite cowboy or desperado, say silly things like skin that smoke wagon and start blowing the hell out of pretend bad guys and not be locked up in the nearest looney bin? The people drew me to SASS!! Not promises of trinkets and papers. Hell I joined and I don't have the first gun to shoot a match yet nor do I care if I ever shoot a match! I enjoy being around all the folks having a great time!! I've shot all the competition events I ever care to shoot in my life. It's you folks that encouraged me to join and it's you folks that will keep me here. Talk to an old soldier and he will tell you that in battle he wasn't fighting for his country, family or God, he was fighting for his buddy in the fox hole next to him. Same here for me I joined and will remain in order that Arcadia Outlaw and the rest of the Lake County Pistoleros have another soldier in the fox hole with them!

BD

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Just ask any club how much they make sponsoring a State Shoot compared to the amount of work put into it. Not that much. And why wouldn't there still be a state shoot for anyone willing to come?? Why would S.A.S.S. be needed??

 

 

I have shot at your club. How do you think I knew about it????

How do you think others find it??????

How do you think new shooters find out about cowboy action and find your club???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a club, pay your dues, whether you compete In a sanctioned event or not you are playing a game made possible by paying members....the Chronicle has been delivered by electronic to me for the past 5 years. I am a life member in a sport that I love and I choose to support. Just my too scents.

 

KK

 

 

It's a club, pay your dues, whether you compete In a sanctioned event or not you are playing a game made possible by paying members....the Chronicle has been delivered by electronic to me for the past 5 years. I am a life member in a sport that I love and I choose to support. Just my too scents.

 

KK

+1

if $40 a year to help support a sport you love is gonna break you, you have more problems than not getting the CC.

My Daughter a competitive surfer pays over $1000 in membership dues each year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I have shot at your club. How do you think I knew about it????

How do you think others find it??????

How do you think new shooters find out about cowboy action and find your club???

I would believe you have heard the term, Word of Mouth, which works just as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would believe you have heard the term, Word of Mouth, which works just as well.

 

 

If you think that would be enough to keep a club afloat and growing.

Then I got some stuff I want to sell you. :blink:

 

 

P.S. Hard for me to believe I am defending SASS when if was not that long

ago I was so ticked at Tex and the WB I was about ready to walk. :wacko:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I first started SASS about 8 years ago it was partly due the CC. I also used it to find clubs to go to shoot at. Since then I've met many friends some I consider family. I too was lead to believe the CC was part of my dues.

Some of you know that I have a baby coming in a few weeks so I haven't renewed my wife's membership yet. I received a letter from SASS March 6 and what I found interesting is the fourth paragraph states "were sure you don't want to miss an issue of The Cowboy Chronicle that comes to you every month." I really find this humorous since I haven't received one since November for either of our memberships and no response to emails about it.

Will I quit SASS no way. I've found great friends and extended family more in this sport than any other I've done. I've been taught many things by great shooters in our sport. However I do think not printing the CC is a bad idea. When I renewed last year I was asked how I wanted to receive the CC and I checked printed copy. I have many friends that read it and some that joined.

Misty had made many positive changes in SASS and I'm sure they will continue. It takes time. This May weed out those that are truly here for game and friendships and the ones that are not.

Just my 2 cents

 

DC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bullets = $98/1000. Primers = $40/1000 (when you can find them). Trailboss = $106/5 pounds + hazmat. Transportation to a nearby "big shoot" = $200 to ~.

 

Now, exactly why are people whining about $35 for an organization that keeps this all glued together? We all have a heck of a lot more invested already.

 

I don't get it?!?!?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of you are calling the ones talking about quitting a whiner. Maybe they are just saying they don't feel SASS gives them enough for the fees.

 

I for one am not whining but stating fact. I was told a printed copy of the CC was part of the fee. Well without the CC I am getting nothing for my fee but the wire forum which I could use just as a guest. I have never paid to use a forum, and I use many, and do not think any forum is worth $45 a year just to hear folks calling others names.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I for one am not whining but stating fact. I was told a printed copy of the CC was part of the fee.

I keep seeing that claim trotted out and I feel the need to call BS on it. Someone needs to show me that "contract" please.... I don't remember seeing anything of the sort. I seem to remember seeing that CC was offered as one of the several benefits of being a SASS subscriber. I seem to remember a CHOICE of printed or electronic delivery being offered. I don't remember a lasting or binding offer of a printed copy. CC is not going away... It is still being offered as a benefit of membership as it always was.

 

IMO SASS needs to make the break completely. If it does away with printed copies it can concentrate on producing a much more PDF-friendly layout along the lines of the NRA publication. No more "continued on Page x" malarkey and maybe even some interactive content to spice it up (how about videos from shoots instead of just pics, for example?)

 

This could, and should, be a positive step forward for SASS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I keep seeing that claim trotted out and I feel the need to call BS on it. Someone needs to show me that "contract" please.... I don't remember seeing anything of the sort. I seem to remember seeing that CC was offered as one of the several benefits of being a SASS subscriber. I seem to remember a CHOICE of printed or electronic delivery being offered. I don't remember a lasting or binding offer of a printed copy. CC is not going away... It is still being offered as a benefit of membership as it always was.

 

IMO SASS needs to make the break completely. If it does away with printed copies it can concentrate on producing a much more PDF-friendly layout along the lines of the NRA publication. No more "continued on Page x" malarkey and maybe even some interactive content to spice it up (how about videos from shoots instead of just pics, for example?)

 

This could, and should, be a positive step forward for SASS.

 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.