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owen judice

Is it time for a change at SASS

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Well if it wasn't part of the fee then why was everyone getting it in print without paying extra?

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Well if it wasn't part of the fee how was everyone getting it in print without paying extra til now?

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Wow, all this over a Newspaper?

Let it go, Mine is half shredded when I get it anyway.

I would really miss shooting within a standardized set of guidelines with the great bunch of cowpokes and cowgirls at Wolf's Rowdy Rangers and Paradise Pass in Indiana and Hidden Valley Cowboys in Michigan.

The frustration will pass when it gets warm again and we can all start burning powder again.

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yeah I am going to let it go......some people just can't see any side but their own.

 

I'm done now that I see what the wire has come down to.

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Wow, all this over a Newspaper?

Let it go, Mine is half shredded when I get it anyway.

I would really miss shooting within a standardized set of guidelines with the great bunch of cowpokes and cowgirls at Wolf's Rowdy Rangers and Paradise Pass in Indiana and Hidden Valley Cowboys in Michigan.

The frustration will pass when it gets warm again and we can all start burning powder again.

You nailed it. SASS is soooooooooo much more than the newspaper and the wire. It's about actually attending matches and fellowship with good people. We are truly blessed to be involved in this sport.

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Most of you are calling the ones talking about quitting a whiner. Maybe they are just saying they don't feel SASS gives them enough for the fees.

 

I for one am not whining but stating fact. I was told a printed copy of the CC was part of the fee. Well without the CC I am getting nothing for my fee but the wire forum which I could use just as a guest. I have never paid to use a forum, and I use many, and do not think any forum is worth $45 a year just to hear folks calling others names.

Then quit.

 

Fact is that SASS...being a member is more about supporting an organizing entity that will hopefully be around longer then one's self to help promote the game...the "Cowboy Way" if you will.

 

Just don't renew...come on the Wire and call folks names if you want...for free! Then you can get that warm feeling that you're not doing your part to help maintain an organization that hopefully will continue to do good in the Shooting Sports/Cowboy History arena...AND you'll be saving less then $4/month...just think what you can do with all that cash!!!!

 

oy...

 

Phantom

 

Then of course you could also consider that perhaps Tex and Cat are getting a bit tired of doing all the work that they do for The CC...and to hire out folks to replace them would be cost prohibitive...

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Wow, all this over a Newspaper?

Let it go, Mine is half shredded when I get it anyway.

I would really miss shooting within a standardized set of guidelines with the great bunch of cowpokes and cowgirls at Wolf's Rowdy Rangers and Paradise Pass in Indiana and Hidden Valley Cowboys in Michigan.

The frustration will pass when it gets warm again and we can all start burning powder again.

You've got powder?!*

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A lot of people seem to have missed the fact that if you scroll to the bottom of the notice from SASS that they will start sending electronic versions of the Chronicle there is a second notice soliciting applications for a new editor for the Chronicle. Tex and Cat are stepping down. Things are changing folks. The Wild Bunch is getting old and are taking steps to make sure SASS continues to live after they are gone. We should be thankful they have set the wheels in motion to accomplish this change.

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Then quit.

 

Fact is that SASS...being a member is more about supporting an organizing entity that will hopefully be around longer then one's self to help promote the game...the "Cowboy Way" if you will.

 

Just don't renew...come on the Wire and call folks names if you want...for free! Then you can get that warm feeling that you're not doing your part to help maintain an organization that hopefully will continue to do good in the Shooting Sports/Cowboy History arena...AND you'll be saving less then $4/month...just think what you can do with all that cash!!!!

 

oy...

 

Phantom

 

Then of course you could also consider that perhaps Tex and Cat are getting a bit tired of doing all the work that they do for The CC...and to hire out folks to replace them would be cost prohibitive...

+1!!!!!

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I for one, am a proud member of

  • NRA (Nationial Rifle Association)
  • GOA (Gun Owners of america)
  • SASS (Single Action Shooting Society)

 

because I wish to support what I believe in ;););)

 

mileage will most certainly vary

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At first I was sorta upset that the CC would no longer be sent in hard copy. Then I looked at the "on-line" version. NICE. The graphics a much better, the colors are brighter, the text is sharper, and I can enlarge it so I can read it without having to squint. I also remembered that a very high percentage of the printed CC's delivered to my mail box were usually missing pages off the front or back, thanks to the wonders of modern sorting equipment at the PO.

 

As for SASS changing. It is evolving, but I really doubt that you will see big changes happen very quickly. If you want big changes you probably need to find a venue other than the SASS Wire. On a local level, over the course of a year, I shoot probably over 200+ different folks. Of those 200+ I can't name over half a dozen that I ever see making comments on the Wire. The Wire is part of SASS, it's fun (most of the time), it can be useful to disseminate information, but it is not the main conduit for starting a movement to make major changes in the organization. That is going to take a little more effort than just being a keyboard cowboy.

So, Is it worth four bucks a month to maintain your membership in an outfit that brings you a hell of a lot of fun and entertainment, even if you don't always agree with the management? I say "Hell Yes". I can't think of any organization that I have ever belong to that I agreed with 100% of the time. If you just can't live without a printed version of the CC there are several options open to you.

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I believe a movement was started on the wire about just how bad things had gotten a EOT and the now famous VIP ONLY AREAS. Some you think this is just about the CC, its about treating your members with a little respect. SASS took my renewal and asked if I wanted the CC in print from I said yes, then decided to change less the a month later and want me to pay 35 bucks more. I think the folks in the SASS office knew a long time ago that this was coming.

What if Misty hadn't said our dues never went to support the CC but instead said we have not raised membership fees in many years, we are going to raise those fees by 10 bucks a year effective Jan 1 and all the increase will go to keeping the CC in the printed from. I could have gone for that, it would have made more sense then what just came down the pipe.

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I believe a movement was started on the wire about just how bad things had gotten a EOT and the now famous VIP ONLY AREAS. Some you think this is just about the CC, its about treating your members with a little respect. SASS took my renewal and asked if I wanted the CC in print from I said yes, then decided to change less the a month later and want me to pay 35 bucks more. I think the folks in the SASS office knew a long time ago that this was coming.

What if Misty hadn't said our dues never went to support the CC but instead said we have not raised membership fees in many years, we are going to raise those fees by 10 bucks a year effective Jan 1 and all the increase will go to keeping the CC in the printed from. I could have gone for that, it would have made more sense then what just came down the pipe.

+1

I also think it could have been handled a little better for the membership. Write something then the next day the new rules go into effect. Remember when the new rules went into effect after the following E.O.T. Like said maybe a few months advance notice.

I for one will support what I believe in, and that is S.A.S.S.

Oh yea, my CC after being read, kept till the next one comes in, is used for bird paper. Yep, the Africans, South Americans, and DownUnder get to poop on it. :)

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Oh...so it's the way they handled the situation...ok...

 

Well, I wasn't in the Board Room when the decision was made so I'll reserve my judgment.

 

So...I guess we're done with this issue...? It's all about how the handled the decision...

 

Seriously, some of you have to realize the not everything is about you.

 

Let me know if you need a couple of bucks a month to help pay for your membership.

 

Phantom

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You nailed it. SASS is soooooooooo much more than the newspaper and the wire. It's about actually attending matches and fellowship with good people. We are truly blessed to be involved in this sport.

 

Better than church at times :D Can't wait for 'fellowship' on the 29th at Scottville!

 

GG ~ :lol:

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Better than church at times :D Can't wait for 'fellowship' on the 29th at Scottville!

 

GG ~ :lol:

The 22nd is the date if the match. Hope you can make it.

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Hey Phantom I have asked for my money back and plan on giving it to TSRA or the NRA, bet they won't say no. Plan on doing the same thing every year from now on.

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Hey Phantom I have asked for my money back and plan on giving it to TSRA or the NRA, bet they won't say no. Plan on doing the same thing every year from now on.

Good...shows you don't give a darn about the Cowboy side of the shooting sports...you don't care about preserving the game for future generations...all because you're not getting your newspaper.

 

Well done!

 

Phantom

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I have already had my hand "slapped" in another post so I am going to be real careful here in what I say:

  1. SASS is a for profit business, not a non for profit club and therefore has paying customers not people paying dues as we do for our local clubs.
  2. When a business changes their policies when they have already been paid for those policies/services, then customers have a right to question those changes.
  3. Three days ago I called SASS on another matter and proceeded to tell them that as of then, their website said that Life Membership entitled the member to a printed copy of the Chronicle at $750.00, I paid $500, and it still applies.
  4. When a business starts to take its customers for granted and they question the company it is surprising that other customers start to become abusive in their support of the business to those customers questioning those changes.
  5. It takes a lot of money to play in this sport, and a lot of clubs don't need shooters to be SASS members to shoot and that's a fact.
  6. Treat us as valued customers, allow us to give feedback before the choice is made and your customer base will stay happy. There was a lot of grumbling when the the membership for life went from $500 to $750 but we couldn't complain as it was a business to raise the fee, but if it said that you would get the paper Chronicle, then you should get it and not have to pay extra as that was part of the deal. And anyone who complains about it has the right without having to be criticized for doing it.
  7. Finally yes for the customers who annually renew, they now have a choice whether to renew or not and the game will be the same if they don't, but the business will suffer in the long run if it doesn't pay attention to those who leave and the reasons why.

 

I just got my March issue in the mail and looks like is has been thrown thru a washer's ringer, corners bent water stains, tears everywhere, and it has been a long time since one came to me in that condition. I would still take it like that instead of being told I have no choice!

 

So allow the customers their opinions, they paid for those like the paid for the Chronicle and their badge when they first signed up.

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So TSAR and the NRA DON'T support CAS in all forms, only SASS does. WOW might come as a surprise to them. And when it comes to ALL ABOUT ME, I remember some one coming on the wire and saying something about being robbed by rack points at Bar 3. Can any one tell us who that was?

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The 22nd is the date if the match. Hope you can make it.

 

Oh the travesty - oh the pain - of being able to shoot that much sooner! :D

 

See ya then!! the 22nd it is -

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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So TSAR and the NRA DON'T support CAS in all forms, only SASS does. WOW might come as a surprise to them. And when it comes to ALL ABOUT ME, I remember some one coming on the wire and saying something about being robbed by rack points at Bar 3. Can any one tell us who that was?

Why don't you list the things that the TSRA and NRA does for Cowboys shooting...????

 

And I never said I was Robbed...so you need to prove that or take it back as I don't take people making lies about others very well.

 

Phantom

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Take back what Phantom I didn't what I didn't mention your name, are you trying to make this all about you?

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I keep seeing that claim trotted out and I feel the need to call BS on it. Someone needs to show me that "contract" please.... I don't remember seeing anything of the sort. I seem to remember seeing that CC was offered as one of the several benefits of being a SASS subscriber. I seem to remember a CHOICE of printed or electronic delivery being offered. I don't remember a lasting or binding offer of a printed copy. CC is not going away... It is still being offered as a benefit of membership as it always was.

A contract exists when two parties both agree to exchange something of value to each party. SASS offered a membership with certain benefits, one of which was the option to receive the CC as a printed copy. By the member choosing "printed copy" and then paying for his subscription, a contract with SASS was made. Neither party can change it without the other party agreeing to the change. SASS stated they can no longer afford to send CC as a printed copy, and instead now offers the pdf version downloadable from their website. If the member agrees to the change to their contract, there's no issue. If the member doesn't agree to the change, SASS has to provide "specific performance" (i.e., printed copy delivery of CC as originally agreed between the parties) or a refund that is agreeable to the member. This is the simplest of contract law. This was taught to every 1L when I went to law school, and is still taught to 1L's today. I also recall taking contract law in College 30 years ago, which covered the same issues of offer, acceptance, and exchange of value (consideration), so you don't have to be a lawyer or go to law school to understand what creates a contract.

 

I suggested to SASS, in a letter to Misty Moonshine, that they honor the printed CC until the renewal date of the last person who selected "printed copy", and offer some other benefit (or a refund) to the life members affected by this change. I also suggested three other ways to handle the loss of the printed CC that would put SASS on the right side of law at a lower cost. I haven't gotten a response, and don't expect a response. I'm not their attorney, and I suspect they didn't consult an attorney before deciding to stop printing CC. They seem oblivious to the fact that they've broken consumer protection laws in virtually every state, and have set themselves up for a class action suit. The palliative public letter by Misty notwithstanding, it's apparent that they're hoping the good nature of the cowboys in the club will allow them to avoid legal entangements over their changing the delivery of CC. Only time will tell if this is going to pan out for them.

 

In the spirit of full disclosure, I find the CC to be a publication that is better as a advertisement for SASS to prospective members than one which benefits an existing member (unless your picture happens to be in it). The last issue took me less than 15 minutes to look through. I spent more time reading AutoWeek, which has only 1/2 the pages and is half the physical size of CC.

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I know what SASS is going through, I took over as the Match Director of our club in Aug. 2006. We had to make some of the same changes, we told the club that as of Jan 2007 our membership fees would go up and that money is what paid for our insurance, no insurance no shoot. We also had to stop sending out the news letter by mail it had to go by email, but if you did't have a computer we would mail it to you at no extra charge. All of these changes were well received by our members, what was the difference, we explained why and told them where the money was going. We also purged the old member's list and stopped sending to people who were not members. If folks are treated with a little respect change is fine.

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Customers will accept changes to their membership/contract agreement provided those changes are:

 

1 - Communicated clearly

2 - Honestly needed

3 - Provides for a fair compensation

4 - Done in a timely manner

 

Of these, number 4 is the most critical. Do that and your customers will accept just about anything as long as they are getting good value for all else you provide. In this case, I think six-months notice would have been sufficient.

 

 

EC

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A contract exists when two parties both agree to exchange something of value to each party. SASS offered a membership with certain benefits, one of which was the option to receive the CC as a printed copy. By the member choosing "printed copy" and then paying for his subscription, a contract with SASS was made. Neither party can change it without the other party agreeing to the change. SASS stated they can no longer afford to send CC as a printed copy, and instead now offers the pdf version downloadable from their website. If the member agrees to the change to their contract, there's no issue. If the member doesn't agree to the change, SASS has to provide "specific performance" (i.e., printed copy delivery of CC as originally agreed between the parties) or a refund that is agreeable to the member. This is the simplest of contract law. This was taught to every 1L when I went to law school, and is still taught to 1L's today. I also recall taking contract law in College 30 years ago, which covered the same issues of offer, acceptance, and exchange of value (consideration), so you don't have to be a lawyer or go to law school to understand what creates a contract.

 

I suggested to SASS, in a letter to Misty Moonshine, that they honor the printed CC until the renewal date of the last person who selected "printed copy", and offer some other benefit (or a refund) to the life members affected by this change. I also suggested three other ways to handle the loss of the printed CC that would put SASS on the right side of law at a lower cost. I haven't gotten a response, and don't expect a response. I'm not their attorney, and I suspect they didn't consult an attorney before deciding to stop printing CC. They seem oblivious to the fact that they've broken consumer protection laws in virtually every state, and have set themselves up for a class action suit. The palliative public letter by Misty notwithstanding, it's apparent that they're hoping the good nature of the cowboys in the club will allow them to avoid legal entangements over their changing the delivery of CC. Only time will tell if this is going to pan out for them.

 

In the spirit of full disclosure, I find the CC to be a publication that is better as a advertisement for SASS to prospective members than one which benefits an existing member (unless your picture happens to be in it). The last issue took me less than 15 minutes to look through. I spent more time reading AutoWeek, which has only 1/2 the pages and is half the physical size of CC.

 

I'm a Life member and I didn't give you permission to represent me so stop, I could give a crap about the chronicle, I didn't sign up to read a paper, I signed up to belong to a organization and to shoot, if you are on this thread complaining why? You can still get the chronicle because you have a computer don't you? Be glad it's even still being produced.

 

KK

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Take back what Phantom I didn't what I didn't mention your name, are you trying to make this all about you?

You've made this very personal...and everyone reading your post knows it...very sad.

 

You try and relate unrelated company/club situations...just sad...

 

Phantom

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I'm a Life memmber and I didn't give you permission to represent me so stop, I could give a crap about the chronicle, I didn't sign up to read a paper, I signed up to belong to a organization and to shoot, if you are on this thread complaining why?

You can still get the chronicle because you have a computer don't you?

Be glad it's even still being produced.

 

KK

 

++

There ya go.

What kind of firestorm would it have created if Tex & Cat decided (without prior notice) to retire from producing/editing the CC?

...leaving the membership with NO version (print or digital) at all?

Who would y'all sue for THAT "breach of contract"?

<_<

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I could care less about the Chronicle, like Phantom I pay my dues to keep the organization strong and shoot. If the only benefit you saw from membership was the chronicle you weren't doing the organization any good anyway.

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Ok folks lets start with I have been helping pull the SASS wagon for 14 years since 1999, I think I have earned a little respect here. In 2010 I spent 9 weeks at home after a surgery, I looked back on the score sheets of our club from the past 10 years. 400 different shooters had been to shoots I helped put on and 4000 shooters had shot our match's by the summer of 2010 and our land owner had been paid 16000 bucks for the use of her land. Now how many of you can match that.

Here is 1 more suggestion, why not start a new membership level, call it "Households for SASS" or what ever. We pay SASS 50 bucks a year, thats 5 more then a normal single shooter renewal. For that we get the CC delivered to our home but no one in that household can go to the "SASS membership required" shoots. We support CAS, SASS and the CC, but we get only what we pay for. If things change and you want to attend one of the BIG shoots then you have to buy a FULL SASS membership as would any one else in SASS.

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So it's not OK to stop publishing a printed version, but it is OK to raise Life membership from $500 to $750. Oh that's right it didn't effect you because you are a ........life member.

 

You armchair lawyers go ahead and try to find an attorney for a class action lawsuit over a printed version vs. an E mailed version. What happened when many of the magazines that were printed went to electronic only? Did they reach out to their subscribers and ask if i was OK?

 

No, they made a business decision that helped them stay in business. Just like SASS is doing.

 

What would a 6 month transition period provide other than 6 months worth of bitching about it? It's done, accept it or move on.

 

Oy, sheesh, OMG

Ike

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Ok folks lets start with I have been helping pull the SASS wagon for 14 years since 1999, I think I have earned a little respect here. In 2010 I spent 9 weeks at home after a surgery, I looked back on the score sheets of our club from the past 10 years. 400 different shooters had been to shoots I helped put on and 4000 shooters had shot our match's by the summer of 2010 and our land owner had been paid 16000 bucks for the use of her land. Now how many of you can match that.

Here is 1 more suggestion, why not start a new membership level, call it "Households for SASS" or what ever. We pay SASS 50 bucks a year, thats 5 more then a normal single shooter renewal. For that we get the CC delivered to our home but no one in that household can go to the "SASS membership required" shoots. We support CAS, SASS and the CC, but we get only what we pay for. If things change and you want to attend one of the BIG shoots then you have to buy a FULL SASS membership as would any one else in SASS.

First respect is earned not demanded.

 

KK

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ooyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!

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