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owen judice

Is it time for a change at SASS

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Maybe its time that CAS Shooters pay for only the services they use. I have been a SASS member since 1999 and my wife joined in 2008, we have never been to and probably never will get to go to a "SASS Membership required shoot", we have neither the time or the money to go to these shoots. For the past 14 years I thought my membership fees covered the printed CC delivered to my home, now we find out that was never the case and SASS wants me to pay extra for the CC to be delivered to my home. Well no thanks, but I will buy just a subscription to the CC for 35 bucks because that's what the SASS office says they can do it for, if 5000 sign up. My wife and I don't need a membership in SASS to shoot the local monthly shoots, but I do like the printed CC. If SASS keeps on the course it has changed to it will loose member, I can think of 2 right now.

 

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Personally, I don't care about the CC. I rarely read it, but I take them to work hoping that it might inspire someone to come out to a match - so far, it's never happened. The guys pick up my copies of Front Sight on their way to the reading room, while the CC sits there collecting dust. I cheerfully pay $35 in order to support an organization that promotes the hobby that I've come to love, not for the CC. Others feel differently and that's cool, but I just can't get upset about it.

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Maybe its time that CAS Shooters pay for only the services they use. I have been a SASS member since 1999 and my wife joined in 2008, we have never been to and probably never will get to go to a "SASS Membership required shoot", we have neither the time or the money to go to these shoots. For the past 14 years I thought my membership fees covered the printed CC delivered to my home, now we find out that was never the case and SASS wants me to pay extra for the CC to be delivered to my home. Well no thanks, but I will buy just a subscription to the CC for 35 bucks because that's what the SASS office says they can do it for, if 5000 sign up. My wife and I don't need a membership in SASS to shoot the local monthly shoots, but I do like the printed CC. If SASS keeps on the course it has changed to it will loose member, I can think of 2 right now.

 

+1 in the same boat but just joined beginning of 2012

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Maybe its time that CAS Shooters pay for only the services they use. I have been a SASS member since 1999 and my wife joined in 2008, we have never been to and probably never will get to go to a "SASS Membership required shoot", we have neither the time or the money to go to these shoots. For the past 14 years I thought my membership fees covered the printed CC delivered to my home, now we find out that was never the case and SASS wants me to pay extra for the CC to be delivered to my home. Well no thanks, but I will buy just a subscription to the CC for 35 bucks because that's what the SASS office says they can do it for, if 5000 sign up. My wife and I don't need a membership in SASS to shoot the local monthly shoots, but I do like the printed CC. If SASS keeps on the course it has changed to it will loose member, I can think of 2 right now.

 

I cant say I will take my ball and go home .

But I agree with the fact that I also thought my membership dues covered a printed copy of CC delivered to my home.

 

I suspect meany Pards are unhappy with the PDF change I know I am .

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I joined SASS to shoot.....the CC was just a neat side note. The electronic copy has the same info and takes up less space.

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It's a club, pay your dues, whether you compete In a sanctioned event or not you are playing a game made possible by paying members....the Chronicle has been delivered by electronic to me for the past 5 years. I am a life member in a sport that I love and I choose to support. Just my too scents.

 

KK

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Sooooooo, just how many of you KNEW about the CC before you joined SASS?

 

I doubt many of you did.

 

I have no complaints about our dues not being used for the cost of the CC.

 

AND, I have no complaints if SASS wants to charge extra for the CC. It sounds to me like they (SASS/WB) has been trying delingently to supply us with a great service that was for our benefit. And like most good things, sometimes a change is involved just to sustain existance.

 

..........Widder

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A printed copy of the CC delivered monthly to my mailbox was part of the agreement when I laid out the loot for a life membership.

 

Sure it was a bad business decision on SASS' part but a deal is a deal. To renege on it just ain't the Cowboy Way. Or is it? I dunno, if it is a matter of survival of the org I guess then all bets are off.

 

Why is a minimum of 5000 wanting a print copy required? Seems mighty arbitrary to me. Especially after renegin' on the original deal.

 

i will be glad to cough up the $35 a year for the print version because I prefer it. I just do not have any faith that 5000 kindred souls will step up to the plate...

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Maybe its time that CAS Shooters pay for only the services they use. I have been a SASS member since 1999 and my wife joined in 2008, we have never been to and probably never will get to go to a "SASS Membership required shoot", we have neither the time or the money to go to these shoots. For the past 14 years I thought my membership fees covered the printed CC delivered to my home, now we find out that was never the case and SASS wants me to pay extra for the CC to be delivered to my home. Well no thanks, but I will buy just a subscription to the CC for 35 bucks because that's what the SASS office says they can do it for, if 5000 sign up. My wife and I don't need a membership in SASS to shoot the local monthly shoots, but I do like the printed CC. If SASS keeps on the course it has changed to it will loose member, I can think of 2 right now.

 

 

If you are really upset about paying for the CC, let me ask: "how much does it take to fill your tank so you can get to your local match who charges you something like $12-15 bucks to shoot for the day?" How much does it cost to eat lunch after the shoot? The cost of the guns, ammo, leather, cart, etc., aside, just going from the shoot and back again is most likely going to cost the price of the subscription.

 

The fact is that no matter what hobby to choose to participate in it will cost money to do it. I have never regretted one single penny I have spent on this game.....'cause the good times and friends I have, if you will, "paid for", are priceless to me. It's either worth it to you, or it's not.

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I'm a lifer as well, I'll pay the extra for the CC, my wife reads it too, if you don't like the sport that much then what can I say. Maybe you should have to be a member to be able to post here, just saying.

 

but then sum people just like to B@#$%

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Howdy,

Ive been trying to figure out how I really feel about all this.

I do know one thing, I never heard one word about my dues NOT paying

for the CC until all this hit the fan.

 

IN MORE THAN TEN YEARS NOT ONE WORD.

 

I do wonder what the advertisers think about this change and

the yank the rug out from under ya way all this was done.

I also wonder if SASS might get sued for not delivering the existing CC for

the remainder of current subscriptions, or is that memberships????

Wow, three new replies in the time it took me to key this.....

Best

CR

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When I started CAS back in 1999 it was not unusual that half the folks at a local match were not SASS members. If being a member of SASS gives you that warm fuzzy feeling like you are making a difference in the sport good for you. I just renewed our memberships in mid Feb. less then 3 weeks later I find out that if I want to keep getting the CC it will cost extra. Why do we treat SASS any different from any other for profit business. If you paid ahead of time for dry cleaning and when you go back to pick up your clothes they tell you there will be a extra charge because their old system wasn't making money and they installed a new one would you go back. SASS is a business, not a club, not a charity.

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I guess my question would be, How would you feel if SASS went away?

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I guess my question would be, How would you feel if SASS went away?

Excellent question, IMHO.

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Hell, hang them all and take up knitting, or perhaps start going to the wifes bridge club meetings with her on Saturdays! I much prefer them store the data and anyone complaining here on a regular basis has the resources to access the new format.. Think on it, if they keep back issues stored for us, I will bet many would have paid them to stop sending the clutter to our mail boxes! I think it very silly to make so much of the non-green tree waster, when we have such an impotent decision to make on passing the Black Powder Gunfighter category!

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FCGF!!! that's why I cancelled EOT last year, because they pulled it off the table!! That really ticked me off!!

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Maybe its time that CAS Shooters pay for only the services they use. I have been a SASS member since 1999 and my wife joined in 2008, we have never been to and probably never will get to go to a "SASS Membership required shoot", we have neither the time or the money to go to these shoots. For the past 14 years I thought my membership fees covered the printed CC delivered to my home, now we find out that was never the case and SASS wants me to pay extra for the CC to be delivered to my home. Well no thanks, but I will buy just a subscription to the CC for 35 bucks because that's what the SASS office says they can do it for, if 5000 sign up. My wife and I don't need a membership in SASS to shoot the local monthly shoots, but I do like the printed CC. If SASS keeps on the course it has changed to it will loose member, I can think of 2 right now.

 

Do you like being able to go to those monthly shoots knowing, wherever they are, that the rules will be the same and that your equipment will be legal? Do you appreciate the fact that this sport exists at all? Do you like having your own alias? Don't you appreciate the fact that there are people and committees working on evolving safety and equipment issues? In my mind you are using the services provided by SASS when you go to matches and shoot. It appears that you use the Wire to keep informed and post your opinion. Now, if all you did was dress up and go plinking by yourself, you'd have a point.

 

Local matches are where new members get introduced to the sport and requiring SASS membership to compete would be counterproductive. Even if I only competed at local monthly matches, I'd still pay my dues, it's kind of a moral obligation in my mind.

 

I'd rather have the choice of paying extra for a hard copy of the Chronicle than see an across the board dues increase to cover those costs.

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Amazing...

 

Having a organization that gives structure to the game is worth $$$ in my book...

 

Perhaps one of you can start another organization for Cowboy Shooting and do it...better???

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

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YES, YES, YES, we should all sue SASS over $35, that will make it all better. $2.92 a month if you want a hard copy delivered to your door is outrageous. Imagine a paper the size and quality of the CC for half the cost of a Starbucks Coffee, what a travesty

 

And while we are at it we should get a rope and hang Tex for all of his hard work and dedication to our sport. Why he only eats, sleeps and lives SASS, the dirty scoundrel. (Remember he is 70+ years young) For years he has put out a great Chronicle that has been informative, instructive, funny and always topical. He is the best pot stirer ever and I really enjoy it. Remember no good deed goes un punished, at least on the wire.

 

While a lot of you B++++ and Moan about the CC going digital, I cant help but notice that it is on the wire using your computer. Go figger, in the time it takes you to respond here you could be reading the CC on line!

 

So before you get your lawyer, before you quit, before you get mad, remember that SASS is PEOPLEe trying to do what is best for the sport.

 

Misty and crew are working hard to make the changes we need and want in an environment that is challenging in every way possible. From rapidly escalating costs to changing rules and regs, to a diverse membership with many different wants and views. They are making a lot of progress and will make SASS better in the future

 

So if you want a hard copy of the CC then print it on your printer, (then you will get an idea of what it costs to print it) or pay the very small and reasonable sum of $35 to get it delivered to you!

 

Respectfully

Bill Bonney

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I guess my question would be, How would you feel if SASS went away?

I believe that either a new organization would rise from the ashes, or people would join one of the other CAS outfits, like NCOWS. Or, people will continue monthly shoots with their local clubs, and abide by local rules.

 

I see my membership paying for the CC, maintenance of my alias, maintenance of the rules, running the annual match, and a profit to the WB (since this is a for-profit company). The maintenance of my alias is the cheapest part of the equation. If that cost more than $1 per year, I'd be shocked. The maintenance of the rules is done by commitee, and that commitee is unpaid volunteers. The publishing of the rules is done on the internet. One can acquire website hosting for nearly nothing these days. I'd allocate $1 for this entire activity. The CC is a printed publication. I figured it was costing them $20 to send it to me. I have no idea what the incremental cost for a member is to run the annual match, because I don't know how much the "sponsors" and vendors pay to be at the match. I can't imagine it is too much, since the entry fees are considerable to go to one of these. Having run a non-profit dog club that ran three matches a year ($300k in revenue, these weren't little matches), I know that any match can be run as a huge money maker, so I'm guessing that no part of my yearly dues is going to run the annual match. The rest of my membership dues is the WB profit.

 

I was astonished to read Misty Moonshine's recent letter to members in which she stated that it costs $350k to produce CC and that's not being paid back by dues. What's missing is the reason that the dues aren't covering the costs. Here's some questions I'd like to see answered...

 

1. It's been reported there are about 30k "active" members. How many of these members are life members? If the number of life members more than 50%, which means no ongoing income from them, I can understand why the club has to pay out of pocket to produce CC, and why it's running into cash flow problems today. It sounds like the revenue from the life memberships wasn't invested to provide for the future benefit of those life members, or the cost of the life membership was insufficient to provide the stated benefit over the expected "lifetime" of the member.

 

2. Founder's Ranch is owned by a different corporation. FR is owned by members of the WB. Was the lease of FR for SASS negociated at arms length? When you have an overlapping board of directors, the duty to zealously represent one side is often strained or violated. In the case of two closely held for-profit companies, this is only of interest to people like the IRS. When one party becomes a non-profit club, the transaction will come under heavy scrutiny.

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I don't understand all this hub-ub about the CC. If you want to read a periodical, go get yourself a magazine subscription to a gun mag. If you wanna shoot, join SASS, grab your guns, dress up like a cowboy and shoot!! I joined SASS to SHOOT! and enjoy fellowship with folks that like to do the same. I go to both sanctioned and non sanctioned.....and I shoot! .....not read lol

 

my 2 cents....

 

BD

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I believe that either a new organization would rise from the ashes, or people would join one of the other CAS outfits, like NCOWS. Or, people will continue monthly shoots with their local clubs, and abide by local rules.

 

I see my membership paying for the CC, maintenance of my alias, maintenance of the rules, running the annual match, and a profit to the WB (since this is a for-profit company). The maintenance of my alias is the cheapest part of the equation. If that cost more than $1 per year, I'd be shocked. The maintenance of the rules is done by commitee, and that commitee is unpaid volunteers. The publishing of the rules is done on the internet. One can acquire website hosting for nearly nothing these days. I'd allocate $1 for this entire activity. The CC is a printed publication. I figured it was costing them $20 to send it to me. I have no idea what the incremental cost for a member is to run the annual match, because I don't know how much the "sponsors" and vendors pay to be at the match. I can't imagine it is too much, since the entry fees are considerable to go to one of these. Having run a non-profit dog club that ran three matches a year ($300k in revenue, these weren't little matches), I know that any match can be run as a huge money maker, so I'm guessing that no part of my yearly dues is going to run the annual match. The rest of my membership dues is the WB profit.

 

I was astonished to read Misty Moonshine's recent letter to members in which she stated that it costs $350k to produce CC and that's not being paid back by dues. What's missing is the reason that the dues aren't covering the costs. Here's some questions I'd like to see answered...

 

1. It's been reported there are about 30k "active" members. How many of these members are life members? If the number of life members more than 50%, which means no ongoing income from them, I can understand why the club has to pay out of pocket to produce CC, and why it's running into cash flow problems today. It sounds like the revenue from the life memberships wasn't invested to provide for the future benefit of those life members, or the cost of the life membership was insufficient to provide the stated benefit over the expected "lifetime" of the member.

 

2. Founder's Ranch is owned by a different corporation. FR is owned by members of the WB. Was the lease of FR for SASS negociated at arms length? When you have an overlapping board of directors, the duty to zealously represent one side is often strained or violated. In the case of two closely held for-profit companies, this is only of interest to people like the IRS. When one party becomes a non-profit club, the transaction will come under heavy scrutiny.

Can't you just shoot and enjoy?

 

If SASS went away, I sure wouldn't be joining NCOWS (Not that there's anything wrong with them), and I sure do believe that a new org wouldn't be free.

 

Some of you folks just amaze me...I guess that some folks can/will never be happy.

 

Phantom

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Some of you folks sure have short memories, I seem to recall a lot of complaining about how bad EOT had gotten. I believe SASS listened and made changes at EOT. Remember how things were soooo much better they just decided to GIVE AWAY entries to that shoot. All I'M saying is we should treat SASS as any other for profit business. Now if you think SASS membership is so important go to your local club and insist that SASS membership be required to shoot the match, I bet you get laughed off the range. Folks SASS took my money letting me think I was going to get the CC delivered to my home it is the principal that you don't do that kind of thing to a CUSTOMER, it should not have still been up on the website if it wasn't going to be available.

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If you like to drink the milk. You need to help pay for the cow.

 

SASS is the main cow we all get our cowboy action shooter milk from.

 

 

Now there was a few years there I had to think about it before I sent mine in.

But that was more in protest to some things I did not like that was going on. (milk was getting

a little sour)

And YES

I was going to make sure they knew why.

BUT

Misty has been taking care of all that. And they now seem to be more focused on the shooter

once more.

 

So I am once again more than happy to help buy feed for that cow. The CC? Don't care one way or the other.

It is not like they did away with it. It is just on line.

 

P.S. Besides. Going to places like the State Championship. Also helps promote you own club. ;)

Just something to think about.

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The NRA went to the electronic format for their magazine for the competitive shooting sports called Shooting Sports USA a number of years ago.

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You know, when I buy a gallon of milk........I'm not buying it for the jug, I'm buying it for what's inside. That's the way I feel about SASS. Sometimes I don't agree with the things that happen but I sure as hell ain't gonna quit.

 

CS

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If you like to drink the milk. You need to help pay for the cow.

 

SASS is the main cow we all get our cowboy action shooter milk from.

 

 

Now there was a few years there I had to think about it before I sent mine in.

But that was more in protest to some things I did not like that was going on. (milk was getting

a little sour)

And YES

I was going to make sure they knew why.

BUT

Misty has been taking care of all that. And they now seem to be more focused on the shooter

once more.

 

So I am once again more than happy to help buy feed for that cow. The CC? Don't care one way or the other.

It is not like they did away with it. It is just on line.

 

That pretty much nails it.

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Some of you folks sure have short memories, I seem to recall a lot of complaining about how bad EOT had gotten. I believe SASS listened and made changes at EOT. Remember how things were soooo much better they just decided to GIVE AWAY entries to that shoot. All I'M saying is we should treat SASS as any other for profit business. Now if you think SASS membership is so important go to your local club and insist that SASS membership be required to shoot the match, I bet you get laughed off the range. Folks SASS took my money letting me think I was going to get the CC delivered to my home it is the principal that you don't do that kind of thing to a CUSTOMER, it should not have still been up on the website if it wasn't going to be available.

I would never get my club to insist on SASS membership in order to shoot...because I know that there will always be those that think only of themselves.

 

If I can play Cowboy Shooter for the rest of my life...and have an organization that does its part to keep this game going long after I'm gone...then PERFECT!!! I'll support it with a few dollars a month...basically the cost of a burger at a cheap fast food joint...woopeee!

 

Phantom

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I worked briefly years ago for the first editor of the NCOWS magazine, The Shootist selling advertising, You would be surprised how many of the big advertisers don't pay their bill, and their ad's are left as fill items to make the magazine look better... It's great for the companies, but sucks for the club members thinking that their magazine is being paid for by advertising revenue...

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You know, before I started shooting CAS, I was an IDPA shooter...guess what.....$40 annual membership dues....just saying.....typically if you shoot competitvely, there is a membership fee to do so.

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I joined SASS to shoot.....the CC was just a neat side note. The electronic copy has the same info and takes up less space.

+1

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You know, before I started shooting CAS, I was an IDPA shooter...guess what.....$40 annual membership dues....just saying.....typically if you shoot competitvely, there is a membership fee to do so.

 

Is IDPA for profit?

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Perhaps one of you can start another organization for Cowboy Shooting and do it...better???

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

 

 

 

I will say. It was NOT LONG AGO that I was wishing someone would do just that.

And I know there has been talk about it from many that was wishing the same thing.

BUT.

Now Misty seems to be turning it around back to the shooter.

So my feeling have started to change back.

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A printed copy of the CC delivered monthly to my mailbox was part of the agreement when I laid out the loot for a life membership.

 

......

 

Why is a minimum of 5000 wanting a print copy required? Seems mighty arbitrary to me. Especially after renegin' on the original deal.

 

Why the 5000 minimum? Welcome to the economics of the Printing Press and the printing industry. I'm in the printing industry. That's the normal minimum quoted for a printing press run. In other words, their printer said, " I don't care how many subscribers you've got, you're gonna pay for 5000 copies." For a print run less than that, you'll be getting a xerographic print copy, and they cost more per issue. Higher quality paper for the xerographic print also costs more per issue (no newsprint). The advantage to the xerographic copy is that there's no setup fee for the press, so shorter runs are economically feasible.

 

Does anyone have a copy of the original ads for SASS? I don't (it's been over 12 years), but I betcha you only contracted for an issue of the Cowboy Chronicle each month, not a PRINTED issue. SASS is still going to be delivering an issue of the CC each month to you.

 

Laz

 

Edit for update: I just realized I had some of the CC PDFs from as far back as April of 2007. Just for grins, I checked the SASS membership ad in April of 07. The only thing mentioned about the CC is in Membership Benefits, and it says: " the Cowboy Chronicle, monthly journal of SASS" is one of the membership benefits. No mention of printed or PDF in the ad itself. The order blank does list two types of International memberships for each level with pricing based on "PDF" or "Printed", but it never mentions that these are versions of the CC.

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