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Engaged as Non-Gamer & Gamer Stage


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If I had been the stage writer, I would have laughed at the idea of anyone double-tap sweeping it and said, "Yep. Fits the directions."

 

Might have been how I meant it to be shot, but I should have been clearer with the instructions.

 

Possum

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...and NO ONE on the entire posse asked any clarifying questions regarding the engagement order.

 

<_<

 

I should have added that into my previous post because due to my hearing deficiency, I normally ask questions on every stage.

 

And on such a stage as this, I probably would have ask about 'double taps' or actual shooting order.

 

I don't quietly jump into a stage that leaves the scenerio up for interpretation such as this thread.

 

..........Wid, always trying to avoid the 'P', der

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...and NO ONE on the entire posse asked any clarifying questions regarding the engagement order.

 

<_<

PWB... here you go trying to use common sense...

 

imho... stage was intended to be no double taps but is poorly written or it was intended to be shooters choice...

 

...if it was intended to be no double taps but is poorly written and was left in silence (hard to believe with the folks that I shoot with), then the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt and receives a no-call

 

...if it is intended to be shooters choice, (still poorly worded) then there's still a no call...

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Wow.... this is hard on the ol' noggin'...

 

Reckon I ain't sharp enough to shoot it other than the normal way.. 1-5-1-5 and so on...

But.. I reckon I can see the point of how the so called "gamer" shot it..

Reckon it was a smart move...

Kinda' reckon it was good thinkin' too..

KInda' reckon at this point they are both clean with the instructions given...

again.. Wow!! Never would have thought it.. :wacko:

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I need to find a sharper knife in the drawer.. :blush:

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Now that you all have had a chance to stew over my post, it's time to clarify things before it gets ugly. This post was created from questions asked me by newer shooters and spured by some stage writers who always assumes everyone knows how a stage is to be shot by how they wrote it. It is entended to make stage writers think and for your SASS entertainment on a cold winter's day. First of all, this never happened. It is a test of assumption and entent based on the information on hand. Everyone knows that you can't assume the intent of a shooter and that should apply to the stage writer. I liked how the replies started out P, P, that's not how it was intended to be shot, P. But after awhile, the clean or no call replies started to take over. Mad Mike, post 39 and Hoot Hamilton.post 51 started to nail it.With no verbal dicussion or someone doing a Vanna on the targets, you must shoot the stage as written. You assumed the writer's intent. Strickly by the info I provided for the stage, it could be shot both ways. NOTE: The term "gamer" has been and will always be a term of endearment to me and in no way was ment to belittle anyone. Sorry if I accidently offended anyone.

No BS Walker

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Hey Stump Water.

 

I don't really care how the PM points to targets. I want to KNOW what it SAYS.

Not how he is going to shoot it.

 

Seen to many PM's try to read into something that is NOT THERE.

 

I would have asked when he was done. And if he said NO. I would point out that is NOT

what it says I have to do.

 

And if he does not tell me it was cleared up in a PM walk through that it could not be shot that way. Then I am asking him to go get

clarification on it before I shoot it.

 

 

But this is a good lesson for stage writers.

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Those of us that have been shooting this game for a while, recognize the "intent" of the stage writer and I think the "that's how it's always been done" mentality was the cause of the initial P calls. A good message for stage writers. Having written stages for way too many matches over the years, I know that it's hard to keep things short and concise and still convey your intent to EVERYONE. But...recognizing a sequence that has room for "interpretation" and explaining your intent while reading the scenario solves a lot of problems.

 

If anyone is interested in seeing a fine example of a clear, concise Shooter's Booklet, find a copy of the 2013 Comin' Atcha book. Nuttin Graceful did as fine a job as I've ever seen putting together a booklet that left very little if anything to the imagination.

 

Is it Spring yet? 32 days 'til Winter Range! Yee Haw!

 

Four Bucks

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Allie Mo,

 

its time for a new Avatar to show your beautiful smile.

 

It will make us feel more like spring before it even gets here.

 

:wub:

..........Widder

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Guess I would have to pull my P.I guess I would never be that GAMEY.I would never think to shoot it like that.Wish I was smarter.

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Hey Stump Water.

 

I don't really care how the PM points to targets. I want to KNOW what it SAYS.

Not how he is going to shoot it.

 

Seen to many PM's try to read into something that is NOT THERE.

 

But this is a good lesson for stage writers.

 

Precisely the two points I intended to illustrate.

 

B)

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Howdy JEDI Pit Bull.

 

sometimes the manor in which we engage a stage is brought about by the way we have been shown or taught. And in some ways, we acquire the notion of "Thats the way its always been done so it must be right".

 

I've heard of a few folks who actually believe that every scenerio has to be Left to Right because that is the way they were shown and taught from their local club.

 

I would venture to say you are a very smart man and given many options, you would choose the smartest way that YOU could shoot a stage. And then proceed to burn it down.

 

About 3 years back, an ROII (black badger) wanted me to get a 'P' on a stage because as a GF, I didn't alternate EVERY shot on my pistols. I did a lead change in the middle of the stage and shots 9 and 10 were from my right hand pistol. He trully believe that was a 'P' because from where he had been, even though he was a Black Badger, he had this gut belief that a GF was suppose to alternate each pistol during the 10 shot string.

 

Needless to say, he was gentlemanly about it and so was it. Actually, he's a lot of fun to shoot with. But I did explain to him that his belief was somehow outdated and my technique was not against any rule or guideline.

 

I love the stages Lassiter writes at GOA. and as mentioned above, if he wrote this stage into the match, the shooter could engage the targets.....just like the 'gamer' and be safe from earning a 'P'.

 

Hope you are doing well.

 

 

..........Widder

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Doing great Widder.Hope to go shoot with Possum sat.We had 14 shooters as Orange this passed sat. and 8 of those were shooting gunfighter.Fun shoot.

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Adding on to what Widder said... people get used to "the way it's always done" and read or hear hings in stage descriptions that aren't there. When I was the MD and writing stages for a local monthly I’d throw in some shooters choice sequences like so:

 

Rifle: 9 rounds. Shoot R1, R2 & R3 three times each.


Inevitably one of two things would happen…


The questions would start flying. “Can you triple-tap?” “Do you have to triple-tap?” "Which side do you start on?"


Or…

 

Shooters 1-7 would triple-tap sweep the targets. Shooter 8 would single-tap sweep the targets three times and someone would try to give him a ‘P’.

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Part of the fun for me IS trying to figure out the very best and fastest way to shoot a stage.

 

Not trying to beat the stage writer. Just trying to figure out the fastest way with how he wrote it.

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Husband asks his new bride. Dear. Why do you always cut the end off the roast before you cook it??

 

Wife says. I don't know. That's they way my Mom always did it.

So she calls her Mom and asks her. Why do we always cut the end off a roast before we cook it?

She says. I don't know. That is just the way your Grandma did it. So that's how I do it.

Now wanting to know why. She calls her Grandma and asks her.

Grandma says. Well. I had a small oven for years. So had to use a small pan. The roast would never fit.

So I had to cut part of it off to get it in the pan. With my new oven and new pans. I don't have to do that anymore.

 

Dang shame we just think we need to follow the leader and do it one way because that is HOW IT WAS DONE.

 

 

I like that the stage writer left it open. Makes for free thinkers.

Write it at your next match. Then give a prize to the first free thinker that will do it the so called Gamer way.

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I started in the P camp, then moved to the no call camp. One thing I have learned is to think it out before firing off a quick response!

 

I did join the "gamer" ranks last week. Scenario had shooter holding a wiskey bottle in both hands, to say the line, then had to carry it with him bewteen shooting locations on the stage. . PM said it was ok to carry it in pocket if you wanted. After watching at least 1/2 of the shooters have to go back to get the bottle between guns I thought I would just stuff it in my vest. Then I figured I would start with it in my vest, but still have both hands on it. When it was my turn I put it in my vest, with top sticking out, both hands on it, and asked the TO if this was a legal starting position. He said it was, and so thats what I did. Most of the shooters who followed me did the same. So..... now I'm in the gamer clan! As long as SAFETY rules are not violated, and the scenario is shot as required, if a shooter can figure out an edge, then more power to them. I can flat guarantee you that if you were in a real gunfight, you would look for every tiny advantage you could find.

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It is not just a case of 'free thinkers' or not, it's a case of what has come to be known as acceptable or not.

 

Not saying that it's right, but that is the way it is.

 

First time something new comes up, say this sweep, it's described, and then as people get used to it some may ask, hey, can I do it as a double tap sweep? The stage writer says no, and you go on and it becomes an unwritten standard at that club.

 

'The way we have always done it' is a powerful thing to break, just look at loading table or shooting order to name two.

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It comes down to what's acceptable?

The Golden Rule doesn't work.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?
I worship the croc god and my most religious wish is to be sacrificed to him. Therefore for you to want me to do unto you what I would have done to me, I get to sacrifice you to the croc god.

It comes down to what is written. I leave my Karnak the Great turban at home when I shoot, it's not period correct, and don't, can't, won't know the shooter, stage writer, or stage readers intent, only what's written.

If we all did what everyone else did there would be no progress. Life without progress is no life.

Soylent Green is people.

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Wow, a bit harsh ain't it?

 

If you ask a match director if you can shoot it as a double tap sweep, and he says no, are you going to do it anyway and bitch and moan about it for the rest of your life cuz you got a P?

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No, I ask the question, I abide by the answer. However, if the question is never asked, there can be no wrong answer.

In the OP, there was no statement of facts regarding alternating between the outside targets, so shooter #2 shot it as written as did shooter #1. A lot, including many at Winter Range, are round count not order and may be shot many ways as in the OP.

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Hey Grizz.

 

If I ask the MD and he says NO. I am fine with that as long as that goes for EVERYONE there and they make sure

NOBODY shot it that way.

I would also ask him to change the wording so everyone is on the same page.

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Part of the fun for me IS trying to figure out the very best and fastest way to shoot a stage.

 

Not trying to beat the stage writer. Just trying to figure out the fastest way with how he wrote it.

 

 

BINGO!!!

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madd-0nes, revision

as listed in the very first post," it was not stated" no double taps, therefore no P would be in order

however, I certainly could see that on the firing line, folks woulda thunk thatta way (yes a p)

 

Had I, myself, come up that gamer approach, I would have asked the stage reader / writer, if what I intended, would be ok

as I don't like what it does to a posse sometimes,,, to hash this out,,, (sometimes in the heat of the moment) when other shooters are still waiting their turn to shoot

 

mileage will always vary

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There is a difference in ASKING to get a clarification on it. And argue about it.

I would ask for clarification. But never argue about it once I got it.

But as I stated. Would also ask them to change the wording so the next posse does not

have to go through the same thing.

 

At a big match. Would think this would be caught in the PM walk through and could be cleared

up before the shooters ever get to it.

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It comes down to what's acceptable?

The Golden Rule doesn't work.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

I worship the croc god and my most religious wish is to be sacrificed to him. Therefore for you to want me to do unto you what I would have done to me, I get to sacrifice you to the croc god.

It comes down to what is written. I leave my Karnak the Great turban at home when I shoot, it's not period correct, and don't, can't, won't know the shooter, stage writer, or stage readers intent, only what's written.

If we all did what everyone else did there would be no progress. Life without progress is no life.

Soylent Green is people.

Your application of the golden rule is flawed. You should respect anothers desire not to be fed to the croc god as you would have them respect your desire to be fed to the croc god.

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If you are doing something a certain way because it's always been done that way, you are probably doing it wrong.

 

that could be very beneficial wisdom..... ;)

 

 

..........Widder

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