Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Engaged as Non-Gamer & Gamer Stage


Major BS Walker Regulator

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 110
  • Created
  • Last Reply

You have 5 rifle targets R1,2,3,4,5. The stage procedure is written: with rifle engage the 5 rifle targets in this order, outside, outside, inside, inside, middle, middle, inside,inside,outside,outside.

The non-gamer engages it this way, 1,5,4,2,3,3,4,2,1,5.

The gamer does it this way, 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5.

 

Give me a break - even I am not gamey enough to try this one with a straight face (and not expect a "P")

 

Tho I do believe that, unless the stage writer was hoping for (and allowing) creativity, the simple addition of the words "Either" and "Other" makes for a better written stage.

Either Outside - Other Outside - Either Inside - Other Inside - Middle - Middle - Either Inside - Other Inside - Either Outside - Other Outside

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have seen and shot that sweep many times. Never once have I seen someone try it the second way listed in the OP. And if anyone had asked I am fairly certain that the answer would have been 'uh, no'

 

Add me to the P parade.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe I missed something but where in the OP does it state that the "gamer" didn't get the ok and no P was awarded or that he simply shot it that way with no P. Seems like there is also some assuming coming from the P camp. If it was an oversight by the stage writer it could have been corrected during the stage instructions. No need for more paper.

there is always asuming going on, as most of us werent there

 

we are all just responding to a post

 

ok, what was the point of the post? opinions based upon limited facts.... perhaps

dang, that is what the wire most often iz

Link to post
Share on other sites

B S has not been on the wire since 2 minutes after he posted.

 

I hate people that S and leave it to stink up the place.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of match directors around here, Lassiter for one,write stages that give options to the shooter and usually stress not to read anything into the stage description that is not written. At one of those matches, this would not be a "P".

 

One could easily add "no double taps" or "engage all five targets with the first five rounds and all five targets with the second five rounds" if that was the intent.

 

Given the limited facts presented, the "gamer" shot the stage by the description-no call.

 

At the very least, if you're going to require the shooter to shoot the stage following some unwritten requirement, he/she should be offered a reshoot, not penalized.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Give me a break - even I am not gamey enough to try this one with a straight face (and not expect a "P")

 

Tho I do believe that, unless the stage writer was hoping for (and allowing) creativity, the simple addition of the words "Either" and "Other" makes for a better written stage.

Either Outside - Other Outside - Either Inside - Other Inside - Middle - Middle - Either Inside - Other Inside - Either Outside - Other Outside

 

+1 AO

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to me, the "gamer" is thinkin and the "non-gamer" has been programed...not to think.

 

That being said, before I shot the stage, I would ask the TO, or on the posse marshal walk-thru and get the match directors input if I can do it the "gamer" way! :D

 

Lets just say this is a monthly, I am sure most of you have seen some alot of written stage runs, not shot the way the stage writer meant them to be.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems like folks are in a hurry to hang the "gamer" shooter. If there are no further words from the Posse Marshal or other than as the stage is written, looks like the shooter found a different way to shoot the sequence. Around here we are always cautioned to not read anything into the stage instructions that are not written. Many of our stages give the shooter maximum flexibility to shoot the stage however they want to do so, within the constraints of the written instructions. A bit unconventional but legal unless modified when read. If the Posse Marshal puts his own spin on what the written words says then you end up with one posse doing it one way and potentially others doing it differently. Very similar discussion we had on where a Nevada sweep has to start, ends of targets or elsewhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of folks voted for the "P". Lacking any clarifying instructions (such as NO DOUBLE TAPS), the Gamers shooting sequence complies with the stage instructions. I think HOOT got it right. Its a no call...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the way the gamer shot the stage. I would never have thought of that possibility, and if I had been his TO I would not have given him a P. The non-gamer made an assumption that was not specified in the scenario.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We have shot the same and similar 5 target scenarios and I can recall assuming the outside, outside, inside, inside, etc meant one and then the other.....and didn't think of the double tap sweep until I got here....guess I'm not a "gamer"...

I think there is a lesson here though.....to do our utmost to write stages that are unquestionably specific, to not leave any pard having to make an assumption, all the while making the stage a fun competition between shooters, not a contest between the stage writer and the shooter.

If'n I git hung fer this at Scottville on Saturday, so be it....

 

hOOt

Link to post
Share on other sites

B S has not been on the wire since 2 minutes after he posted.

 

I hate people that S and leave it to stink up the place.

B S is one of the best shooters in Virginia and has authored a large number of the stages we shoot. Why rant on someone you know nothing about?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wrote a match that specified that if you are not told that you can't do something; that you could. In that match; the "gamer" would have been fine. Minus the qualifiers (no double taps, etc.) anything not prohibited in the stage writing or SASS rules; would be your choice. Fun shoot!

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the stage writer wanted to lead you by the hand by all means he could have added more wording. But maybe he was allowing for shooter creativity and that's all he meant to write period. As someone else pointed out Lassiter writes some stages with very little instruction to allow for many options and that is very liberating. How much longer if at all would it have taken for most of us to figure out we could have shot it the "gamer"' way. I think sometimes the point is to think or more importantly not over think.

Link to post
Share on other sites

B S is one of the best shooters in Virginia and has authored a large number of the stages we shoot. Why rant on someone you know nothing about?

Hi John,

 

The "G" word is a hot-button term. It gave his post a certain derogatory slant toward the G-people. I hate that term.

 

Also, what does the B S stand for? Combine those initials with the term Gamer and it leads people to see things that may not have been intended by his post.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Link to post
Share on other sites

So by the logic of the non P crowd it would be OK to shoot it 1-1-2-2-3-3-2-2-1-1??

 

NO...the OP's stage instructions specify: "...engage the 5 rifle targets in this order..."

 

;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

B S is one of the best shooters in Virginia and has authored a large number of the stages we shoot. Why rant on someone you know nothing about?

 

Who's ranting. He posted a topic and hasn't come back for over 12 hours to add clarification.

 

One might conclude he is ranting..........maybe how someone shot one of his stages

 

I got 5 bucks

Link to post
Share on other sites

Gamer, non gamer. The question is, did the stage scenario state he couldn't shoot it that way?

We all know, or should know, if the rules don't say you can't, then you can. That horse has been beat so many times it's ground nag by now.

If it doesn't say you can't, you can.

The ONLY place in the SHB, ROI, ROII that says "if it's not listed here, you can't do it" is the firearms covenants.

I never thought about shooting it the second way, but as the op said the stage scenario described the rifle, it can be shot that way.

A long, long time ago, a multi world champion shooter, told me to never ask if you can do something during a walkthrough. If the stage designer didn't say you can't, you can.

If you ask, the stage designer, under pressure from the other PM's or not, could say no, then you're stuck with their word. If you don't ask, then you can shoot it your way and, if challenged, you can say "well, they didn't say I couldn't" and either get a reshoot, or the score stands.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If both got it right. We would have to assume there was zero, nada, none discussion on how it was to be shot during or after the stage was read. I find that almost impossible? But I wasn't present.

Just because it wasn't written perfect, doesn't mean you can shoot it how you want!

 

View from my saddle.

Ringer

Link to post
Share on other sites

Who's ranting. He posted a topic and hasn't come back for over 12 hours to add clarification.

 

One might conclude he is ranting..........maybe how someone shot one of his stages

 

I got 5 bucks

 

I sent him a PM this morning and he hasn't answered that either. I assume he has a job. The only reason I'm on here wasting electrons is because Quanticdo is closed until noon and then I have to go to work also. :(

 

I'm all for "spirit of the game," but one does have to be careful about how the stages rulkes are written and I think he's probably wanting to see what others think about interpreting a set of instructions rather than ranting. In the matches I've shot with him, I've never seen him be a whiner in any way, and in fact, he's one of the most helpful people out there. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi John,

 

The "G" word is a hot-button term. It gave his post a certain derogatory slant toward the G-people. I hate that term.

 

Also, what does the B S stand for? Combine those initials with the term Gamer and it leads people to see things that may not have been intended by his post.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

Howdy, Allie!

 

The "G" word has a long and contentious history in USPSA just like CAS. Personally, I'm in the camp that says ya gotta follow the rules and stage instructions, but if they are written loosely, then they have to be interpreted loosely. I think BS is, as a frequent stage writer, just trying to be sure that his terminology is tightly written. I don't know him outside of CAS, but on the range, he is a helpful, straight up guy whose advice has been to my benefit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am still just trying to figure out what the point of his post was in the first place.

 

If you are in a gun fight. Would you not want to figure out the fastest way to shot them down. :o

Link to post
Share on other sites

PWB was correct, I meant what I said and agree with his comment regarding the OP saying engage the 5 rifle targets.

 

That sweep is shot all over the country, and in many places, whether stated as 'either - other' or NOT that part is a common understanding. For those who shoot where the second choice is commonly allowed, you'd best make sure and ask when you travel.

 

I love shooters choice stages, but I would sure hate to see where stage writers are pretty much obligated to spell out each and every allowable choice so as to completely define what is acceptable.

 

I also agree with the comments that the term 'gamer' can be inflammatory and often used with negative connotations.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of match directors around here, Lassiter for one,write stages that give options to the shooter and usually stress not to read anything into the stage description that is not written. At one of those matches, this would not be a "P".

 

One could easily add "no double taps" or "engage all five targets with the first five rounds and all five targets with the second five rounds" if that was the intent.

 

Given the limited facts presented, the "gamer" shot the stage by the description-no call.

 

At the very least, if you're going to require the shooter to shoot the stage following some unwritten requirement, he/she should be offered a reshoot, not penalized.

 

Buff,

 

this was my thinking also.

 

Based on the non-specifics of the stage instructions, NO CALL.

 

1st shot was on an outside target

2nd shot was on an outside target

3rd shot was on an inside target

4th shot was on an inside target

5th shot was on the middle target

6th shot was on the middle target

7th shot was on an inside target

8th shot was on an inside target

9th shot was on an outside target

10th shot was on an outside target

 

Looks like the stage instructions (as we have been told) were followed. No more, No less.

 

 

..........Widder

Link to post
Share on other sites

What Widder said.

 

Followed the instructions given.

No more. No less.

 

BUT.

 

I would have asked before I did it. And if not allowed. Had then change the instructions.

 

No GAMER to it. Just following the instructions to the letter.

 

 

Don't add anything to it. Don't care what they do anyplace else. just read the instructions given.

And if doing so. How would it be a P??

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let us suppose that the posse marshal on posse 1 simply read the instructions for the rifle sequence as stated in the OP and that the PM on posse 2 pointed at targets while he was reading the instructions.

 

Now what?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let us suppose that the posse marshal on posse 1 simply read the instructions for the rifle sequence as stated in the OP and that the PM on posse 2 pointed at targets while he was reading the instructions.

 

Now what?

 

...and NO ONE on the entire posse asked any clarifying questions regarding the engagement order.

 

<_<

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.