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Anvil Al #59168

TG VOTE

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The only reason I brought up disagreement with rule change #1 was that #2 did not pass which has another safety rule already covering it, the fact you could not addd some wording like you can't pick up rds up off the ground is crazy,.

 

What I think is funny is how some folks must never shoot anything but cowboy and have never been to a gunrange where when folks walk in front of dozens of guns pointed downrange with actions open after a cold range is called.

 

I think post # 137 does say it best both the quote & the response.LOL

 

AO

Yep and that is what killed #2. The consensus was if wording was added that you can't pick up a round that has fallen on the ground, most of the TGs would vote for it. Then, just like here on the wire, people started having a difficult time understanding what the ground was. What if you are standing on a wooden floor? What if you are on a concrete floor? What if a prop has a piece of trim where it joins the floor and the round falls on that? The matter got "what if'd" to death, the ROC decided to keep the original wording and #2 was dead.

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Let me understand something, are saying that you believe that people will just throw there rifle or shotgun down without even trying to open them, is that your fear?

 

KK

 

No. My fear is the shooter just letting the gun drop to the table. I know It happens now. Some shooters think their faster but just dropping/throwing their gun down during transitioning rather than "placing" it. I feel dropping it is dangerous, especially with the action work on some of these guns. AND IF the gun happened to have a round in it, it could go off. Now with this new rule I think a lot more shooters will just start to drop/throw their rifles down because in their head there in no penality if the lever closes. In the heat of a stage no-ove ever thinks they left a round in or loaded to many so if you have more people dropping their guns to "re-stage" them then the chance of an A.D. goes way up. With the way it was at least we had to make them open it which it turn made more people place their guns down more carefully.

 

I may (hopefully) be wrong (It sure won't be the first time.)

JEL

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No. My fear is the shooter just letting the gun drop to the table. I know It happens now. Some shooters think their faster but just dropping/throwing their gun down during transitioning rather than "placing" it. I feel dropping it is dangerous, especially with the action work on some of these guns. AND IF the gun happened to have a round in it, it could go off. Now with this new rule I think a lot more shooters will just start to drop/throw their rifles down because in their head there in no penality if the lever closes. In the heat of a stage no-ove ever thinks they left a round in or loaded to many so if you have more people dropping their guns to "re-stage" them then the chance of an A.D. goes way up. With the way it was at least we had to make them open it which it turn made more people place their guns down more carefully.

 

I may (hopefully) be wrong (It sure won't be the first time.)

JEL

Under old rule you did not have to "make "shooter open lever but a least a effort by TO was made to try and get shooter to do so, under new rule if correct amount of rds are fired TO can ignore if lever closes and the penalty is made if a empty or live rd are in gun.at least that is my understanding of BJZack posts.

 

 

AO

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Well here is the official results of the voting

 

1) If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, should there be a "no call" if in fact, the firearm is empty, or a penalty if a spent case or live round is ejected? If the gun closes, the shooter will be the ONLY one to touch the gun until it is shown clear or otherwise, at the end of the stage.
For 80.08% Against 19.11% Abstain 0.81% PASS

 

It's obvious that the majority thought something needed to change. This subject has been brought up for years. What would have been your solution AO and JEL? Discussion is good and makes for a healthier sport by the way.

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I'm not complaining I just think it's a crazy ,The only reason I brought up disagreement with rule change #1 was that #2 did not pass which has another safety rule already covering it, the fact you could not addd some wording like you can't pick up rds up off the ground to get #2 to pass is crazy,.

 

AO

 

That was thought of. Now lets say round falls on a strongbox that is only 3" off the ground? How do we define ground?

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No. My fear is the shooter just letting the gun drop to the table. I know It happens now. Some shooters think their faster but just dropping/throwing their gun down during transitioning rather than "placing" it. I feel dropping it is dangerous, especially with the action work on some of these guns. AND IF the gun happened to have a round in it, it could go off. Now with this new rule I think a lot more shooters will just start to drop/throw their rifles down because in their head there in no penality if the lever closes. In the heat of a stage no-ove ever thinks they left a round in or loaded to many so if you have more people dropping their guns to "re-stage" them then the chance of an A.D. goes way up. With the way it was at least we had to make them open it which it turn made more people place their guns down more carefully.

 

I may (hopefully) be wrong (It sure won't be the first time.)

JEL

We've got rules about dropped guns, and if a shooter is so careless as to let a rifle fall from his shoulder to a table, it will probably not stop there and wind up on the ground. I can't believe that anyone would take that chance. In spite of the fact that you seem to notice shooters just slamming their gun indiscriminately, they are probably more in control of where it lands than you are aware. You can be assured that all these issues were considered prior to passing a rules change. This is not the monumental change that so many seem to think.

 

CR

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The discussion at the TG's meeting was just like the discussion here. Lots of pros and cons were brought up and discussed. For a rule change to pass, it must pass by 2/3 thirds. This has kept a lot of things that people supposedly "want" (such as deleting the empty hull in a shotgun being an MSV) from passing. A lot of people think the rule for voting should be a simple majority (51%). I personally like the 2/3 thirds rule as it means a matter has the solid backing of the majority of clubs represented at the meeting.

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Under old rule you did not have to "make "shooter open lever but a least a effort by TO was made to try and get shooter to do so, under new rule if correct amount of rds are fired TO can ignore if lever closes and the penalty is made if a empty or live rd are in gun.at least that is my understanding of BJZack posts.

 

 

AO

 

I agree, but the incidents of it happening were few and the majority of the time corrected. I think this new change will just increase the amount of times it happens and therefore increase the chances of something happening. TO's don't always keep up with every shot from every shooter and you can't expect them to with all the things that can happen. Again, I just don't see a need for this change.

 

JEL

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We've got rules about dropped guns, and if a shooter is so careless as to let a rifle fall from his shoulder to a table, it will probably not stop there and wind up on the ground. I can't believe that anyone would take that chance. In spite of the fact that you seem to notice shooters just slamming their gun indiscriminately, they are probably more in control of where it lands than you are aware. You can be assured that all these issues were considered prior to passing a rules change. This is not the monumental change that so many seem to think.

 

CR

 

It's not something I just "notice" and it happens frequently. I am not talking about the experienced shooter. I'm talking about the "negative" definition of "gamer". The shooters who want to be the fast guys without practice. The ones who cut corners to save time. Those shooters are NOT in control and IMO this will just give them yet another corner to cut. I hope I'm wrong. Obviously the vote says that now, only time will tell. My host club won't allow the change and I will continue just as I have so it really doesn't even effect my shooting.

 

JEL

 

Duece, how many clubs were represented?

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It's not something I just "notice" and it happens frequently. I am not talking about the experienced shooter. I'm talking about the "negative" definition of "gamer". The shooters who want to be the fast guys without practice. The ones who cut corners to save time. Those shooters are NOT in control and IMO this will just give them yet another corner to cut. I hope I'm wrong. Obviously the vote says that now, only time will tell. My host club won't allow the change and I will continue just as I have so it really doesn't even effect my shooting.

 

JEL

 

Duece, how many clubs were represented?

 

Johnny, there were 246 clubs represented out of the 560 some odd clubs affiliate. Voting by proxy is quick and easy to do and requires very little effort on the clubs part.

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When does this rule take effect?

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Think it is kind of funny.

 

More talk about this AFTER, the vote.

 

Before the vote?? Not one peep about it on here. :huh:

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Let me understand something, are saying that you believe that people will just throw there rifle or shotgun down without even trying to open them, is that your fear?

 

KK

If they do that, they would get a 10 second penalty for having an empty in the chamber.

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It's not something I just "notice" and it happens frequently. I am not talking about the experienced shooter. I'm talking about the "negative" definition of "gamer". The shooters who want to be the fast guys without practice. The ones who cut corners to save time. Those shooters are NOT in control and IMO this will just give them yet another corner to cut. I hope I'm wrong. Obviously the vote says that now, only time will tell. My host club won't allow the change and I will continue just as I have so it really doesn't even effect my shooting.

 

JEL

 

Duece, how many clubs were represented?

How are you going to communicate you are not following SASS rules to visitors at monthly matches and multi day matches at your club?

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The shooter must still open and clear the action, can't just set the gun down without attempting to clear the gun.

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The shooter must still open and clear the action, can't just set the gun down without attempting to clear the gun.

True, unless they want to get a MSV for the fired shell still in the rifle.

 

KK

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Johnny, there were 246 clubs represented out of the 560 some odd clubs affiliate. Voting by proxy is quick and easy to do and requires very little effort on the clubs part.

 

Duece, I posted earlier that I was out for a few months going back to school and didn't learn about the agenda items until the weekend before the vote. As you may know our TG has been in a bad way with his health. I don't know if he got a proxy vote in or not.

 

How are you going to communicate you are not following SASS rules to visitors at monthly matches and multi day matches at your club?

 

Just like any other club that has specific host club rules. Advise them at the shooter's meeting.

 

JEL

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Just like any other club that has specific host club rules. Advise them at the shooter's meeting.

 

JEL

So at a monthly shoot you forget to mention this at a shooters meeting, is the shooter penalized for following SASS rules? This is the crux of the matter, when clubs develop unique rules. If they forget to mention them EACH and EVERY time, shooters that get penalized (because the match director forgot to mention the unique lever rule ) for following SASS rules are none too happy.

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In the old west during a gun fight, guns would be dropped in the dirt. I really don't like vertical racks and they could be a deciding factor when picking a match. You going to tell me you have never jacked up a sight on a POS vertical rack? How many guns have you seen hit the dirt when they fell out or off the side of a vertical rack? You and I have been shooting along time and typically agree on most subjects. Get your butt over to HOW this year, lots of down range movement, lots of lateral movement, and NO vertical racks. We have wide shooting bays with good berms and we take advantage of the berms. I need to talk with you about a couple trucks when you have time. Gotta go I have to chase an Elfis out of the barn.

 

Assassin

dumbing down of sass

I am in a barn feeding the live stock

probably staged my long gun vert

I am in the feed store, working with customers, maybe staged a long gun

I am a bartender, in the old west, probably staged my s x s horz, behind the bar

 

 

gessessss

its about mixing things up for crying out loud

 

just sayin

just an idea

mileage will vary

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So at a monthly shoot you forget to mention this at a shooters meeting, is the shooter penalized for following SASS rules? This is the crux of the matter, when clubs develop unique rules. If they forget to mention them EACH and EVERY time, shooters that get penalized (because the match director forgot to mention the unique lever rule ) for following SASS rules are none too happy.

Not mention when they go to big shoots it does no justice no to be able to play by all SASS rules.

 

KK

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That was thought of. Now lets say round falls on a strongbox that is only 3" off the ground? How do we define ground?

Why does it matter where the shell is when the shooter picks it up as long as they maintain muzzle control and does not breat the 170?

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Why does it matter where the shell is when the shooter picks it up as long as they maintain muzzle control and does not breat the 170?

Doesn't matter to me, but apparently mattered to enough folks that the rule wasn't changed.

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Why does it matter where the shell is when the shooter picks it up as long as they maintain muzzle control and does not break the 170?

(for which there are listed penalties already)

 

That is a very good question...IMO, it shouldn't.

 

Another potential safety issue is revolvers falling out of holsters while bending over to retrieve dropped ammo.

...but wait...there are already penalties if that happens (severity dependent on whether revolvers are loaded or not) <_<

 

IMO...99% would NOT (or could not) even attempt bending over or squatting to do so while wearing a double-gun rig and shotgun ammo belt...some of us would have a hard time even WITHOUT all such encumbrances...thus the extensive use of brass-picking "grabbers" for retrieving empties...along with any dropped/ejected live rounds.

 

^_^

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That is a very good question...IMO, it shouldn't.

 

Another potential safety issue is revolvers falling out of holsters while bending over to retrieve dropped ammo.

...but wait...there are already penalties if that happens (severity dependent on whether revolvers are loaded or not) <_<

 

IMO...99% would NOT (or could not) even attempt bending over or squatting to do so while wearing a double-gun rig and shotgun ammo belt...some of us would have a hard time even WITHOUT all such encumbrances...thus the extensive use of brass-picking "grabbers" for retrieving empties...along with any dropped/ejected live rounds.

 

^_^

That was going to be my next point ;)

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So at a monthly shoot you forget to mention this at a shooters meeting, is the shooter penalized for following SASS rules? This is the crux of the matter, when clubs develop unique rules. If they forget to mention them EACH and EVERY time, shooters that get penalized (because the match director forgot to mention the unique lever rule ) for following SASS rules are none too happy.

 

I don't think this is something I will forget to mention during our normal, routine, every match, safety meeting where the safety rules are advised to all of the shooters from notes that are written down on the same clipboard the we use every match for just this purpose. Clubs have unique rules all over the place and this hasn't been an issue with those rules so don't think this will be an issue here.

 

Not mention when they go to big shoots it does no justice no to be able to play by all SASS rules.

 

KK

 

 

So how is this different than a "plant and poke" shotgun rule that is strictly enforced at at least one of our regionals? It's not a SASS rule.

 

JEL

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John E Law, Who represented your club at the convention? And do you know if they voted the way your club voted? If not, it is like all votes - if you don't vote how can you complain?

Chance Ramsay

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John E Law, Who represented your club at the convention? And do you know if they voted the way your club voted? If not, it is like all votes - if you don't vote how can you complain?

Chance Ramsay

 

 

+1

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I agree with JEL. There is a local club I frequent that technically does NOT allow movement in a stage with a long gun action closed. PERIOD. Empty or otherwise. They have lately not made as big a deal about as they used to before SASS came along. Abiding by local range "safety" rules, ridiculous in our opinion or not, is just the way it is. Ranges are getting harder and harder to replace and are closing down or pushing out the action disciplines far to often to argue the point.

Celero

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How are you going to communicate you are not following SASS rules to visitors at monthly matches and multi day matches at your club?

Well the Southwest Regional has a rule you have to plant & poke for SG shells ,you cant load on the move.

 

Just to point out it is done.

 

AO

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John E Law, Who represented your club at the convention? And do you know if they voted the way your club voted? If not, it is like all votes - if you don't vote how can you complain?

Chance Ramsay

 

 

+1

 

If you re-read post #226 I have said that I was away from shooting for several months and I didn't find out about the vote until the last minute. With the main club that I belong to we have had some serious of health issue with almost every board member so I'm not sure if this club got a proxy vote in. BUT with that said, I was also not contacted by ANY of the other 4 clubs that I belong to during my leave asking me for my vote either.

 

Also, who said I was complaining about the rule. I'm not sure I like it, as of right now my host club doesn't like it, and most importantly they don't have to follow it. I guess I'll wait and see if and how it effects safety. I can always try to pursuade them into allowing it later. The rule was made and I'm OK with it and with the process. Due to other circumstances we may have not been able to get in a vote but I'm still a paid member of SASS and also multiple CAS clubs so I have every right to complain about a rule if I want to....if I were in fact complaining.

 

JEL

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Here comes old #137 again. Do you practice getting a shotgun shell or a rifle reload from your belt? Do you practice picking up a round that's rolling around on whatever ?

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Johnny, I answered a question for you yet you have not answered the one I posed to you. Again with 80% voting for it, it's obvious that folks wanted a change. What would you have proposed? Feel free to respond as well Arcadia Outlaw.

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Johnny, I answered a question for you yet you have not answered the one I posed to you. Again with 80% voting for it, it's obvious that folks wanted a change. What would you have proposed? Feel free to respond as well Arcadia Outlaw.

 

In post 217 I said about my "apprehension" regarding this new rule change, "I hope I'm wrong. Obviously the vote says that now, only time will tell."

 

I will follow the rules at the other clubs I shoot at. As of right now my host club is against it so, there, we don't have a choice.

 

As for "What would I have proposed?" Nothing. I didn't think it needed changing. I'm majorly out voted with my opinion and I'm fine with that.

 

JEL

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I normally don't post in these whining sessions but I had a week moment.

 

It's kinda cut and dry, the new ruling passed so either follow it or don't.

 

Its not gonna do any good to keep hashing out the same thing over and over. It's done so let's move on and all have a merry Christmas .

 

Geez,

 

Slick

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