Transition question for double duelists

[El diablo gringo]

As a frontiersman shooting double duelist can I perform the following: stage is 2 pistols holstered, rifle 10 rds staged on bar followed by shotgun 4 rds staged on bar. At the beep, draw and fire 5 rds from right hand pistol then holster. While drawing left hand pistol the right hand brings rifle off bar pointing down range by supporting the rifle with my forearm. Fire 5 rds with left hand pistol. As left hand pistol returns to leather right hand moves rifle to shoulder, the left hand moves to rifle to commence firing rifle. Please let me know your thoughts as I have announced to TO my actions in advance. Only once I was told that I would not be allowed to perform the transition.

[Yusta B.]

I don't see any problem except maybe some awkwardness holstering while moving rifle. I would feel more secure placing my hand on the staged rifle while holstering & as soon as I was satisfied the pistol was well into the holster, then direct my attention to picking up the rifle. JMO

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Its legal and most efficient in a good transition.

 

Even as a GF, if I have a split pistol stage that is Pistol, Rifle, Pistol, SG type scenerio, I will draw left pistol and at the same time, I will put my right hand in the lever and lift the rifle up off the table with the barrel muzzle resting on the table, while I shoot my 1st pistol.

 

 

..........Widder

[Utah Bob #35998]

I don't understand supporting the rifle with your forearm. Are you left handed?

[Anvil Al #59168]

Its legal and most efficient in a good transition.

 

Even as a GF, if I have a split pistol stage that is Pistol, Rifle, Pistol, SG type scenerio, I will draw left pistol and at the same time, I will put my right hand in the lever and lift the rifle up off the table with the barrel muzzle resting on the table, while I shoot my 1st pistol.

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

I would do this.

Or just get you hand in the lever.

 

by picking it up. I think you will be showing down and taking to much off what you are doing with the left hand shooting

the pistol.

 

Even if you don't pick the rifle up and only have hand in lever. By the time you get the pistol holstered. You will have enough time

to bring rifle up anyway.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

some people think that you can't have two loaded GUNS in hand at the same time, when it is actually "two loaded REVOLVERS" in hand, except for GF style of course.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Sounds like a bad plan and depending on what you mean by "supporting the rifle with my forearm" might result in an unsafe gun handlling call. If you pick up the rifle with your right hand and intend to hold it in the air with the buttstock resting on your right forearm you are going to be using a lot of strength to keep that 8 or 9 pound rifle up and you shots with the left hand are going to be made a lot more difficult. If you are talking about resting the rifle on your left forearm while you are shooting the pistol with your left hand that is a desaster waiting to happen. You don't ever want your hands to be idle. As previously noted you can grab the rifle through the lever opening and be ready to very quickly raise the rifle to its shooting position as you are holstering your left gun. However, holding it in the air and trying to deal with the attendant body tremors and shaking is simply counterproductive.

[El diablo gringo]

Widder, I'm glad you mentioned you keep the rifle's muzzle on the table. I bring the rifle up close to shoulder level and was told that the rifle had to touch part of the table until the time to engage rifle targets. Would you know if this is true?

 

To every one who has responded, many thanks. The sport of CAS has the greatest group of individuals I've ever had the pleasure of spending time with.

Happy trails to all,

EDG

[El diablo gringo]

Larson,

The butt is under my forearm which counters the weight of the barrel. With practice I was amazed at how little the weight seems to matter. But you are correct, I practice to focus on having a steady barrel pointed down range, safety first for me as well.

 

EDG

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Widder, I'm glad you mentioned you keep the rifle's muzzle on the table. I bring the rifle up close to shoulder level and was told that the rifle had to touch part of the table until the time to engage rifle targets. Would you know if this is true?

 

To every one who has responded, many thanks. The sport of CAS has the greatest group of individuals I've ever had the pleasure of spending time with.

Happy trails to all,

EDG

That is only for the pistols. If you are shooting double duelist and the pistols are staged on a table, you can grasp the second pistol but some part MUST remain on the table until the first gun is empty. Otherwise you will get a penalty for having two loaded handguns out at the same time.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Widder, I'm glad you mentioned you keep the rifle's muzzle on the table. I bring the rifle up close to shoulder level and was told that the rifle had to touch part of the table until the time to engage rifle targets. Would you know if this is true?

 

To every one who has responded, many thanks. The sport of CAS has the greatest group of individuals I've ever had the pleasure of spending time with.

Happy trails to all,

EDG

 

Gringo:

 

Your LOCAL club may have a rule/guideline that wants you to keep part of the rifle touching the table in the scenerio we are discussing. But, as far as SASS is concerned, I am not aware of any rule against completely picking up the rifle while shooting the pistol.

 

 

..........Widder

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I was under the impression that at least one part of a long gun, ie barrel, had to be touching the prop it was staged on until the gun in hand had been fired. After a very quick scan through the rule books I didn't notice a reference to it so I may have been mistaken. For me at least, if I'm trying to bring up a long gun while firing my left pistol I tend to have a miss.

 

Randy

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Randy,

 

Larsen stated it well in his post above.

 

p.s. - thanks for the package. PERFECT!

 

 

..........Widder

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

As a frontiersman shooting double duelist can I perform the following: stage is 2 pistols holstered, rifle 10 rds staged on bar followed by shotgun 4 rds staged on bar. At the beep, draw and fire 5 rds from right hand pistol then holster. While drawing left hand pistol the right hand brings rifle off bar pointing down range by supporting the rifle with my forearm. Fire 5 rds with left hand pistol. As left hand pistol returns to leather right hand moves rifle to shoulder, the left hand moves to rifle to commence firing rifle. Please let me know your thoughts as I have announced to TO my actions in advance. Only once I was told that I would not be allowed to perform the transition.

Gringo,

The transition is legal as others have said, but I would use a timer to tell me if the transition is faster than to reach for the rifle touching it but not thinking of the complete transition (picking up and shouldering) while firing left. Not saying this well, but are you taking mental time from your firing of the left revolver because you are thinking about your plan for the rifle with right hand. If not, then your ideal is the best. Mental time can cost you just as slow reflex time can, you have a great plan but you are thinking all the time. I practice back to leather a lot so in your scenerio although I might place my right hand on rifle as I fire left I want it to be instictive and not thought about during the time I am firing left revolver. Think of it like this, can I draw my left faster not concerning with right hands next function then holster left fast as right grips rifle netting a better time than doing it your way (thinking and shooting at same time can get me in trouble sometimes me sometimes--ha). Timer can tell you if you are using time thinking about right hand transition. Bottomline is you have to holster that left gun so in that transition how fast can you get that rifle into play. Not sure I am making sense, but hope you understand what I am trying to say. Instict is one thing, thinking about to many things can be costly although you think it is not.

[Dewey Cheatem, SASS #75620]

I think your on the right track but for me I holster right gun and while shooting left gun put fingers in lever and grip stock. While holstering is the time that I pull the rifle up to the shoulder them run left hand up to support rifle. Very effective method taught to me by Nuttin Graceful and TBone Dooley. Keep your hands moving.

Example if stand and deliver pistol pistol rifle shotgun. Draw right pistol while shooting have left hand on left pistol. As soon as last round fired holster right gun while drawing left put right hand on rifle. Holster left gun while pulling up rifle. Empty rifle setting down with left hand grab shotgun with right. While coming up with shotgun left hand grabs shells and finish the stage. As a double duelist always keep your hands moving and on a gun.

 

Hope this helps.

 

DC

[Anvil Al #59168]

Gringo,

The transition is legal as others have said, but I would use a timer to tell me if the transition is faster than to reach for the rifle touching it but not thinking of the complete transition (picking up and shouldering) while firing left. Not saying this well, but are you taking mental time from your firing of the left revolver because you are thinking about your plan for the rifle with right hand. If not, then your ideal is the best. Mental time can cost you just as slow reflex time can, you have a great plan but you are thinking all the time. I practice back to leather a lot so in your scenerio although I might place my right hand on rifle as I fire left I want it to be instictive and not thought about during the time I am firing left revolver. Think of it like this, can I draw my left faster not concerning with right hands next function then holster left fast as right grips rifle netting a better time than doing it your way (thinking and shooting at same time can get me in trouble sometimes me sometimes--ha). Timer can tell you if you are using time thinking about right hand transition. Bottomline is you have to holster that left gun so in that transition how fast can you get that rifle into play. Not sure I am making sense, but hope you understand what I am trying to say. Instict is one thing, thinking about to many things can be costly although you think it is not.

 

 

I think your on the right track but for me I holster right gun and while shooting left gun put fingers in lever and grip stock. While holstering is the time that I pull the rifle up to the shoulder them run left hand up to support rifle. Very effective method taught to me by Nuttin Graceful and TBone Dooley. Keep your hands moving.

Example if stand and deliver pistol pistol rifle shotgun. Draw right pistol while shooting have left hand on left pistol. As soon as last round fired holster right gun while drawing left put right hand on rifle. Holster left gun while pulling up rifle. Empty rifle setting down with left hand grab shotgun with right. While coming up with shotgun left hand grabs shells and finish the stage. As a double duelist always keep your hands moving and on a gun.

 

Hope this helps.

 

DC

 

 

+1 to both the above.

And Billy said what I was trying to better than I did.

 

You do want to start the trans to the rifle. but don't take to much of you mind off of that left pistol

as one miss will cost more than what you would have saved in the transition.

That is why most of the very best DD in the world. T-Bone, Nuttin, Billy Boots have taught me

to just get my hand on the rifle, fingers in lever.

 

Even doing that. By the time you have your pistol holstered you will have had the time to bring rifle up

anyway. AND you did not push taking to much of your mind off of the left pistol or throw to much of your balance off

maybe causing a miss with the pistol. As you WILL NOT be able to make that time up.

 

P.S. Larsen is a REALLY good DD also.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

transitions such as this are great ideas but if not practiced seriously can cost a bobble in a match rather than "time shaver". When you practice said transition so that it is instict not thinking on top of drawing-acguiring site/target-pulling trigger then it becomes what you want. Trouble is this scenerio is not in that many matches in all club so lots of other things become more important to spend time on....the draw, the reholstering, reholstering inside on the move, etc....these things are used more often. Not to take from OP, it is legal and great if perfected.....big close targets and practice can certainly perfect this transitions outcome.

[Flying W Ramrod]

Just playing the other side of the field, for once.

The hand holding the pistol must be shot "without support". Wouldn't laying the rifle barrel on the shooting forearm be supporting the shooting hand?

I know it's supposedly harder to hold both the rifle and the pistol in one arm but the rifle could be seen as holding the shooting arm in position therefore supporting the shooting hand.

 

SASS Handbook Page 13

• "Duelist Style" is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired one handed, unsupported. The revolver, hand, or shooting arm may not be touched by the off hand except when resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem or when transferring the revolver from one hand to the other.

• "Double Duelist Style" is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired one handed and unsupported, with each hand, that is, left gun with the left hand and right gun with the right hand. The revolver, hand, or shooting arm may not be touched by the offhand except when resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just playing the other side of the field, for once.

The hand holding the pistol must be shot "without support".

 

Wouldn't laying the rifle barrel on the shooting forearm be supporting the shooting hand?

NO.

 

I know it's supposedly harder to hold both the rifle and the pistol in one arm but the rifle could be seen as holding the shooting arm in position therefore supporting the shooting hand.

 

SASS Handbook Page 13

 

• "Duelist Style" is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired one handed, unsupported. The revolver, hand, or shooting arm may not be touched by the off hand except when resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem or when transferring the revolver from one hand to the other.

 

 

• "Double Duelist Style" is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired one handed and unsupported, with each hand, that is, left gun with the left hand and right gun with the right hand. The revolver, hand, or shooting arm may not be touched by the offhand except when resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Just playing the other side of the field, for once.

The hand holding the pistol must be shot "without support". Wouldn't laying the rifle barrel on the shooting forearm be supporting the shooting hand?

I know it's supposedly harder to hold both the rifle and the pistol in one arm but the rifle could be seen as holding the shooting arm in position therefore supporting the shooting hand.

 

SASS Handbook Page 13

 

• "Duelist Style" is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired one handed, unsupported. The revolver, hand, or shooting arm may not be touched by the off hand except when resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem or when transferring the revolver from one hand to the other.

 

 

• "Double Duelist Style" is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired one handed and unsupported, with each hand, that is, left gun with the left hand and right gun with the right hand. The revolver, hand, or shooting arm may not be touched by the offhand except when resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem.

 

 

if you are shooitng the pistol with your left hand. And you got the rifle in the right. How is that supporting the shooting hand??

[Flying W Ramrod]

AA read post 1, the right hand is in the lever of the rifle, the barrel is across the left forearm, also read post 9 where he states the butt of the rifle is in his arm pit counter balancing the weight of the rifle.

 

PWB, does post 9 counter the argument that there is weight on the forearm therefore it's not supporting?

 

I know some DD/GF/BW will ask/whine about this during a match and I would like the definitive answer.

Thanks

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

AA read post 1, the right hand is in the lever of the rifle, the barrel is across the left forearm, also read post 9 where he states the butt of the rifle is in his arm pit counter balancing the weight of the rifle.

 

PWB, does post 9 counter the argument that there is weight on the forearm therefore it's not supporting?

 

I know some DD/GF/BW will ask/whine about this during a match and I would like the definitive answer.

Thanks

 

As I understand this...the shooting arm (with revolver in hand) is also supporting the barrel of the rifle.

The 'off' hand (holding the rifle) is definitely NOT supporting the shooting arm/hand in any way that I can see...quite the reverse, actually.

[Anvil Al #59168]

AA read post 1, the right hand is in the lever of the rifle, the barrel is across the left forearm, also read post 9 where he states the butt of the rifle is in his arm pit counter balancing the weight of the rifle.

 

PWB, does post 9 counter the argument that there is weight on the forearm therefore it's not supporting?

 

I know some DD/GF/BW will ask/whine about this during a match and I would like the definitive answer.

Thanks

 

 

I don't think that is what he is talking about.

While the left hand is shooting the pistol.

 

The right hand goes in the lever and the back of the stock on the rifle is up against (under) his right forearm. supporting the rifle

with the right hand and right forearm.

 

The weight of the barrel forces it down. While the back of the stock up against the bottom of his forearm holds in up.

 

Does that make sense. not sure I am explaining it right.

[Dewey Cheatem, SASS #75620]

Ramrod maybe I'm missing it but I don't see anything about having the rifle in the left hand until shooting it.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Are you going to Jackson next week? You have to show me this transition. As I understand it you're going to shoot the rifle left handed, so that the right hand, which I would have thought would have been better placed on the forearm of the rifle, is bringing it up to the left shoulder as you're holstering the pistol held in the left hand. In any event, the transition is allowed.

 

Tex

[Attica Jack #23953]

Sounds to me like a match D.Q. waiting to happen

[Dewey Cheatem, SASS #75620]

The OP said nothing about shooting left handed or having rifle supported by left hand while shooting pistols. Reread what he said. Shoot right pistol re holster and while shooting left pistol pull rifle up to right forearm. I myself would not pick it up until last round fired from pistol but would have right hand gripping lever.

[El diablo gringo]

Howdy all,

AA and PWB are on point with the transition. That is exactly how it's done.

 

Tex, I'll see you next Sunday at Jackson. Are you going to make the WB match too? I'll be at both.

 

EDG

[Anvil Al #59168]

Howdy all,

AA and PWB are on point with the transition. That is exactly how it's done.

 

Tex, I'll see you next Sunday at Jackson. Are you going to make the WB match too? I'll be at both.

 

EDG

 

 

Some of the advice given to you that they only put hand in lever. Was by multi World and National Champion shooting

DD style. And a few in the top 10 a few times also.

So pretty good folks to listen to about DD.

 

Don't push a miss with a bad position. just getting that hand in the lever is what most do.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Some of the advice given to you that they only put hand in lever. Was by multi World and National Champion shooting

DD style. And a few in the top 10 a few times also.

So pretty good folks to listen to about DD.

 

Don't push a miss with a bad position. just getting that hand in the lever is what most do.

+1... even a slight, unnoticeable change in body position will happen when you begin to add weight on the right while shooting the left. It's sort of like what happens when you take your eye off the sight to look for a holster before pulling the trigger. MISS... put it away too fast.

 

When you go for another gun before/as you're shooting the other gun imperceptible changes (to you) can make enough difference to cause a miss. No matter what else you're doing you have to stay focused on the front sight as you break the shot.

[Dewey Cheatem, SASS #75620]

Amen Brother King. That is one of my biggest problems. I guess my brain is ahead of my trigger finger. Probably 75% of my misses are looking to holster or next gun before breaking the shot. Just remember smooth is fast. Practice transitions and they will become second nature.

 

DC

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Gringo, I am thinking this whole transition as if I would be doing it so when I make comment I do not want to sound as though it is criticism to you, BUT I would find it very hard to make that transition without my mind getting split between the two acts of shooting and holding rifle, not to mention the balance as others have pointed out. As I said before, target distance and size reflects a lot of how fluid this transition can/will be. If practicing this maneuver I would concentrate a lot on the flow of the left revolver into holster then that hand to forend of rifle..a miss to leather by the slightest with take any gain from play.... of course, this is true even if right hand is only in lever or merely touching rifle....all about practice and flow as intinctly as possible. Just like looking your revolver into holster, IMO, it is great practice as a rookie or to someone who does not shoot many matches, but if you are a serious competiter who can and desires to spend lots of time practicing then the ability to instictively hit that holster as you draw another revolver, are on the move, or as in this scenerio, as your eyes focus to rifle, is "time shaving".

 

I guess some of us are going a little overboard to your OP question which we have established as being legal, but perhaps you can learn also from the extended comments being injected to thread. I enjoy spending time with timer to see if ideas, such as yours, actually gain me time or cost me time. I could give numerous examples of ideas I thought would be good but the clock told me no. For some of those ideas, perhaps lots of practice would have turned the outcome around, but rather than refine that particular idea, I often shift practice to something I felt would work better or simply stay with and pratice more of what I had been doing before the new idea popped in my head.

[Flying W Ramrod]

PW, thanks. I have the answer to tell anyone who says other.

I wouldn't have called it but wanted to ask the question.

Thanks again

[Anvil Al #59168]

One other things that affects me on this transition. Is table height.

 

I find that for me. A short table that I have to really reach down to get into the lever on the rifle,

or get a grip on the shotgun. Really throws me off balance and I tend to push a miss more than

normal. As I am not real limber. And I DON'T bend very good.

 

So, at least for me. if the long gun is staged on a really short table or prop. Saving the one second to go for the

long gun. Is not worth having a miss and costing me 5.

But again. This is only is the long gun is staged low.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Alot of good advice above from some highly skilled Pards.

 

Billy Boots stated one item that jumped out at me which might be the most critical of all ..... "mind getting split between the two acts of shooting (pistol) and holding rifle".

 

If your physical part is saying 'YES' but your brain is being distracted and losing focus on what you should be focused on (like shooting your pistol), then you're gona have to work alittle harder to make sure all those brain waves stay in sync with your physical movements.

Just a thought.

 

There are some of use who's left side of the brain doesn't know what the right side is doing. Thats why it isn't difficult for some to independently operate a pistol in one hand and a rifle in the other...........

 

Happy Trails.

 

 

..........Widder