Let's make a call

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

Stage calls for 10 rounds from the rifle followed by a reload and shoot the 11th target. (not a bonus, it was a required shot). The shooter shoots the 10 rounds and forgets to reload and shoot the 11th target.

 

What's your call?

 

Lafitte

[Grizzly Dave]

A miss for the 11th target is a given.

 

What would seem to be in question would be if a P was earned or not.

 

I would say no, as it would be similar to a shooter on a normal string jacking out a round and choosing to take the miss rather than reloading.

 

I like an occasional stage with a mandatory reload on the clock.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Blackfoot,

 

Listed under 5 second penalties is "Each unfired round."

 

So, I'd have to go with a miss.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Painted Filly]

I believe Grizz is right a miss but only a miss.

 

Page 24 pf the ROI A miss can not cause a P.

 

Painted Filly

[Doc Shapiro]

Yup, just a miss.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

I do not see it as a miss.

 

No attempt was made to shoot at the target and no round was jacked out.

 

Forgot or just didn't want to, No attempt was made to load the required 11th round which was in the stage instructions. It was not an option.

 

A procedural.

[Doc Tombstone, SASS #49630]

Many shooters would gain time by this "forgetfulness" 5 sec compared to 7, or 8 sec that a reload would take.

I agree with only a miss but would be concerned that folks who don't practice reloads would start becoming forgetfull.

At my club about 12 people would have been yelling "RELOAD, RELOAD"

 

Doc

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

But Cliffy, if the "no attempt" was intentional that is not a P. It is a SOG!

 

So, it can't be a P.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Black Tom]

I would say a miss and a P: A miss for the unfired round, And a P for failure to attempt a prescribed stage maneuver that of reloading the rifle, this is different than jacking a round out and not reloading because that was not required in the stage instructions. But I've been wrong before

•

Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver

[Dirty Chris]

I do not see it as a miss.

 

No attempt was made to shoot at the target and no round was jacked out.

 

Forgot or just didn't want to, No attempt was made to load the required 11th round which was in the stage instructions. It was not an option.

 

A procedural.

I would agree with this. It wasn't just an unfired round, shooter did not follow stage instructions by completing the mandatory reload.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Oooh Tom,

 

That is a good call.

 

However, a miss can't cause a P; but a P can cause a miss. So which caused or didn't cause what. Until I hear from PWB, I'd stick with the lesser penalty, which is a miss.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I have too, Tom. No harm in being wrong if we learn from it.

[Black Tom]

The miss didn't cause the P the failure to attmept the reload did, if he had attemped the reload and dropped it or jacked it out after loading it I would say miss only because he attempted to follow the stage instructions but failed to get the round off. But in this case he would have taken the P for not attempting the reload which took place before the shot was to be fired.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Miss Allie,

 

I can't possibly know the shooters intentions.

Shooter may have forgot.

I know 1 round was not loaded and shot or loaded and jacketed out.

 

I know there was suppose to be an 11th round reload.

That didn't happen.

------------

If I load my revolver with 4 rounds (forget or intentional) and shoot, is the round 5 a miss? Or is a procedural for not following the instructions and gaining an unfair time advantage over all other shooters who follow the instructions.

 

Not arguing. Just discussing.

------------

 

Personally, if I didn't load the 5th round or one round doesn't fire, I would reload to make it 5. Just the way I choose to play the game. I have even recapped when a cap fell off my C&B.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Miss Allie,

...

I give up. So many things are going through my mind based on various rules and comments that I'll wait for PWB before sticking out my neck any farther.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I do not see it as a miss.

 

No attempt was made to shoot at the target and no round was jacked out.

 

Forgot or just didn't want to, No attempt was made to load the required 11th round which was in the stage instructions. It was not an option.

 

A procedural.

So if a shooter forgets to shoot one knockdown target, is it a miss or a P?

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

"So if a shooter forgets to shoot one knockdown target, is it a miss or a P?"

 

To be a miss the shooter must engage the target.

If the round does not fire or the target is missed, then the call is a miss.

To not shoot at or engage the target would be a procedural in my opinion.

 

As a counter, I call what I see.

But there are always two other counters who can also call it as they see it.

I can and have been out numbered.

Two of three is the call unless the shooters protests.

Then it goes to the MD.

-------------------

Calling PWB..... your assistance is needed !

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

_{ROI page 24}

 

_{"10- SECOND PENALTIES
Procedural Penalties
Any unintentional procedural errors caused by “brain fade,” confusion, ignorance, or mistakes
(not to exceed one for any given stage).
• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm.
• Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver...."}

 

_{I would say a Procedural and a miss - 10+5}

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Miss Allie,

 

Don't give up.

 

Wasn't it much easier when all the rules where in a small book that fit in a shirt pocket!

 

CH

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I would say a miss and a P: A miss for the unfired round, And a P for failure to attempt a prescribed stage maneuver that of reloading the rifle, this is different than jacking a round out and not reloading because that was not required in the stage instructions. But I've been wrong before

 

 

•

Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver

Hi Again Tom,

 

I just figured out the rebuttal for this. It was not a "prop or stage maneuver" it was a shot or target.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Fingers McGee]

I would say a miss and a P: A miss for the unfired round, And a P for failure to attempt a prescribed stage maneuver that of reloading the rifle, this is different than jacking a round out and not reloading because that was not required in the stage instructions. But I've been wrong before

 

 

•

Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver

+2, The P for not loading the 11th round and a miss for the unfired round.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

_{ROI page 24}

 

_{"10- SECOND PENALTIES}

Procedural Penalties

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by “brain fade,” confusion, ignorance, or mistakes

(not to exceed one for any given stage).

• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm.

• Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver...."

 

_{I would say a Procedural and a miss - 10+5}

Gol darn MT!

 

I need a magnifying glass to read that.

 

Anyway, I already gave my opinion on one. Here goes on "failure to attempt to fire a firearm." That doesn't apply either, as he/she fired that firearm and there is no rule about "failing to fire a shot."

 

Regards,

 

AM

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

Gol darn MT!

 

I need a magnifying glass to read that.

 

Anyway, I already gave my opinion on one. Here goes on "failure to attempt to fire a firearm." That doesn't apply either, as he/she fired that firearm and there is no rule about "failing to fire a shot."

 

Regards,

 

AM

 

Not sure what happened there Allie!... Fixed it

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

It's a miss....• Each unfired round.

• To help understand this concept, a "MISS FLOW CHART" is found in Appendix C. It is also good to understand "A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL."

 

Would it be a miss and a P if the shooter only fired four from a revolver then reholstered.....NO it's only a miss. Good Luck

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

It's simply a Miss.... if the shooter did it to gain advantage then the proper penalty is SOG.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I didn't read all the reasonable post BUT I do agree with Black Tom..... 'P' with a Miss.

 

 

..........Widder

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Wow!

 

When I first saw the OP. I thought that's sure an easy call. I guess it's only easy if my first post was right on.

 

I think when we hear from PWB, I will have to send my mailing list a clarification in case they are "wrong headed" or get a bad call on them.

 

Blackfoot, thank you for starting this.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Shooter is not obligated to reload a rifle or a pistol due to a jacked out or dead round. Nor is it any other penalty than a miss if a shooter miscounts and only shoots 9; downs the gun open AND EMPTY.

 

In my view, only if the stage instructions specifically state that not performing the reload is a "P" would the reload be a penalty other than a miss, which is the same penalty as not reloading a jacked out/ dead round in any gun.

 

The jacked out round scenario could also be argued (and has been until it is a dead horse) to have been done to avoid the time/ didn't have the shells/ target wasn't engaged....etc. etc. etc. But, that has been ruled an error many many times.

 

If you want the reload to be MANDATORY or only done at the end of the string then state it in the stage instructions.

[Noz]

I have a problem with the shooter not attempting the reload.

He should have a time penalty for not hitting the target and a time penalty for not attempting the reload. Two separate and distinct portions of the stage directions.

I'd call a miss and a P.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Bro King,

 

Blackfoot stated in his OP that it was a required shot, which help me think is where the 'P' was earned.

 

Of course, I have been wrong a few times on things such as this.

 

 

Best regards

 

 

..........Widder

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

It's a P for not following stage instructions,(did not do the reload per stage instructions), and a miss for the unfired round.

[Cat Brules]

Miss Allie,

 

I can't possibly know the shooters intentions.

Shooter may have forgot.

I know 1 round was not loaded and shot or loaded and jacketed out.

 

I know there was suppose to be an 11th round reload.

That didn't happen.

------------

If I load my revolver with 4 rounds (forget or intentional) and shoot, is the round 5 a miss? Or is a procedural for not following the instructions and gaining an unfair time advantage over all other shooters who follow the instructions.

 

Not arguing. Just discussing.

------------

 

Personally, if I didn't load the 5th round or one round doesn't fire, I would reload to make it 5. Just the way I choose to play the game. I have even recapped when a cap fell off my C&B.

 

I think it's a P.....ONLY.

 

In your ficticious example (see above), failure to load a 5th round in the revolver happened off the clock. But your failure to fire the missing round, or choosing to load the 5th round on the clock and fire it, was a miss. There is nothing in the stage instructions regarding any of the variations of that scenario. MISS ONLY.

 

However, in the real example of this topic, according to the stage instructions, the shooter should have loaded the 11th round, and engaged the 11th target, firing the round, on the clock. He did neither, so:

== failure to load the 11th round and fire it = P

== failure to hit the target WOULD HAVE BEEN A MISS.

BUT, a P cannot cause a miss, so ... P ... ONLY.

 

That's my logic, twisted though it may be.

 

Cat Brules

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I had a similar stage at my match yesterday. 11th. round was a required reload after the first 10 had been fired. We had no problems as all shooters did it properly. Some missed the target "miss". However, IF one had chosen not to attempt the reload I, as the MD, would have awarded a "P" (failure to follow instructions) and a "miss" for the unfired round. May not be correct, but until I am educated otherwise that is how I would have called it.

[rustyfinger 22618]

Stage calls for 10 rounds from the rifle followed by a reload and shoot the 11th target. (not a bonus, it was a required shot). The shooter shoots the 10 rounds and forgets to reload and shoot the 11th target.

 

What's your call?

 

Lafitte

P and a miss.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I had a similar stage at my match yesterday. 11th. round was a required reload after the first 10 had been fired. We had no problems as all shooters did it properly. Some missed the target "miss". However, IF one had chosen not to attempt the reload I, as the MD, would have awarded a "P" (failure to follow instructions) and a "miss" for the unfired round. May not be correct, but until I am educated otherwise that is how I would have called it.

 

We do the best we can....

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

.However, in the real example of this topic, according to the stage instructions, the shooter should have loaded the 11th round, and engaged the 11th target, firing the round, on the clock. He did neither, so:

== failure to load the 11th round and fire it = P

== failure to hit the target WOULD HAVE BEEN A MISS.

BUT, a P cannot cause a miss, so ... P ... ONLY.

 

That's my logic, twisted though it may be.

 

Cat Brules

Howdy Cat, if this is considered a P, then earning a P can cause a miss (each unfired round). The stated rule is a miss cannot cause P. Good Luck

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy