Let's make a call

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

Thanks PWB, that was the call--P and Miss. I posted this because one shooter (not involved in the infraction) became so vocal about it not being correct that ...........oh well, it's past now.

 

Lafitte

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I heard y'all callin' from way out on the range today!

 

As so many have already stated:

P + a Miss (for all the reasons already mentioned).

 

I see that the "P cannot cause a miss" misquote has already been addressed as well.

 

Thank y'all for participating.

Hi PWB,

 

Thanks for the call. However, many rules have been tossed around. (ha ha a- round...) Which specific rule is the P based on?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I'm probably going to want to word-smith it because I talked myself out of all of the P rules based on the way they were worded.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Hi PWB,

 

Thanks for the call. However, many rules have been tossed around. (ha ha a- round...) Which specific rule is the P based on?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I'm probably going to want to word-smith it because I talked myself out of all of the P rules based on the way they were worded.

 

 

I was trying to "MultiQuote" the appropriate posts...got an ERROR message telling me that I was overlimit on the number of quoted replies that could be attached...the other option was to go back through 3 pages to "tag" the post #'s...

 

FWIW - I was late for w**k.

 

There is a common theme throughout this thread:

 

Shooter failed to "...attempt a prop or stage maneuver" (reload the rifle) = P

Shooter ended up with an "unfired round" = MISS

 

 

[Kid Drover]

I think Tom hit the right answer. Attempting the reload was part of the specific instructions for the stage. Let's say the shooter attempted to reload, jacketed out the round attempting to hit the target, didn't try to reload again, that would make it would only a miss. However, not attempting the reload is the "P" in this case, so the miss didn't casue the "P". I will finish with this.....I hope I remember the next time I have to reload.

 

KCD

 

Edit: Mr. Brunelle posted just as I posted, but was 10 seconds faster.

[Hikes Point Hank]

Along these lines.......

if a shooter has a brain fade in a match at the loading table and loads 9 instead of ten in his revolvers(and the loading table overseer clears him to go) and shoots 9 of ten targets....

Whats the proper call?

Happened to me in Florida state match when I had a high primer, removed that one and replaced it with a good one then pulled another one out cuz I was in a hurry and the last shooter at the loading table...Just got out of sequence I suppose!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Along these lines.......

if a shooter has a brain fade in a match at the loading table and loads 9 instead of ten in his revolvers (and the loading table overseer clears him to go) and shoots 9 of ten targets....

Whats the proper call?

 

Happened to me in Florida state match when I had a high primer, removed that one and replaced it with a good one then pulled another one out cuz I was in a hurry and the last shooter at the loading table...Just got out of sequence I suppose!

 

That's a different situation than the OP...MISS only for not loading enough rounds at the LT.

Same for "short loading" a rifle.

USUALLY, the shooter will attempt to engage with the non-existent round (that "click" always sounds louder to me than the actual muzzle report)

 

There is always the option to load a round on the clock with NO penalty other than the time to do so.

[Hikes Point Hank]

And thats what was called. You are right about the sound coming from that empty chamber Pale Wolf, it was absolutely deafening!

Thanks and keep up the good work youre doing on here.

Sincerely

Hank

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

so where so we draw the line on "attemp"?

shooter reaches for belt or simply looks down and realizes they didnt bring a round for reload, P?

shooter forgets SG shells, thats not a P.

c(curious)c

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

so where so we draw the line on "attemp"?

shooter reaches for belt or simply looks down and realizes they didnt bring a round for reload, P?

shooter forgets SG shells, thats not a P.

c(curious)c

 

 

 

33. Failure to stage guns or ammunition at the designated position(s) or location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time.

 

EDIT: PLEASE SEE POST #84!!

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Wowzer!

 

I've never seen a P given when a shooter forgets SG shells.

 

I understand the P + misses when someone hands ammo to the shooter. P for illegally acquired ammo makes sense and misses make sense. Unfortunately, I can't wrap my aged blond head around a P for not acquiring ammo at all. I've never seen a shooter given a P for coming to the line with an unloaded gun. I've only seen them receive the misses.

 

This thread is turning out to be more of an education than I thought.

 

Unfortunately, folks don't like bad news (more penalties). IMO, this is not a clear situation, which is likely to lead to inconsistent enforcement.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

I think it's a P.....ONLY.

 

In your ficticious example (see above), failure to load a 5th round in the revolver happened off the clock. But your failure to fire the missing round, or choosing to load the 5th round on the clock and fire it, was a miss. There is nothing in the stage instructions regarding any of the variations of that scenario. MISS ONLY.

 

However, in the real example of this topic, according to the stage instructions, the shooter should have loaded the 11th round, and engaged the 11th target, firing the round, on the clock. He did neither, so:

== failure to load the 11th round and fire it = P

== failure to hit the target WOULD HAVE BEEN A MISS.

BUT, a P cannot cause a miss, so ... P ... ONLY.

 

That's my logic, twisted though it may be.

 

Cat Brules

Howdy Cat, for clarification, a P can result in a miss ( as in this post). A Miss can not cause a P.

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

Wrong Thread

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

Wowzer!

 

I've never seen a P given when a shooter forgets SG shells.

 

I understand the P + misses when someone hands ammo to the shooter. P for illegally acquired ammo makes sense and misses make sense. Unfortunately, I can't wrap my aged blond head around a P for not acquiring ammo at all. I've never seen a shooter given a P for coming to the line with an unloaded gun. I've only seen them receive the misses.

 

This thread is turning out to be more of an education than I thought.

 

Unfortunately, folks don't like bad news (more penalties). IMO, this is not a clear situation, which is likely to lead to inconsistent enforcement.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

This came up on the RO Wire and it was determined that ammo loaded in a gun or carried on the person was NOT staged so the penalty for not staging ammo did not apply. Failing to load the correct number of rounds in a gun or not carrying ammo to the line on your person will result in misses for the rounds not fired unless it is corrected unassisted on the clock but no P.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Thanks, MM, I posted that "other" ref to see if anyone (besides AM) would catch it.

Figured it was my turn to mess with the Wire after a weekend of WtC?'s.

 

Here's the original response from the RO Instructor Wire re: forgetting to bring SG ammo to the line (BTDT)

 

Operative word in that rule is STAGED.

Ammo loaded in a firearm or in beltloops is not considered "staged".
Empty (or short-loaded) gun or loops = MISSES for "unfired rounds".

E.g. if the SG ammo was to be "staged" in a box & the shooter failed to do so during the run (i.e. loaded from his belt) he would get the "P".
If the shooter pulled ammo from loops; put it in the box; then loaded from the proper stage point = NO penalty.

Same when revolvers are to be STAGED on a prop. Shooter may pull from leather; stage on prop during the run = NO penalty.
Drawing & firing straight from holsters in that case = "P".

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I bet you throw a mean curve ball PWB.....

 

..........Widder

[Blackwater 53393]

It ain't the curve you gotta' watch for, Widder. It's that danged knuckleball!!

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

PWB,

youre not addressing my question. post 84 is discussing staged items. the OP says nothing about staging the reload yet you ruled this a P+M. i believe my post shows the inconsistancy of this call. there are several experienced and educated shooters on both sides of this argument. i'm just trying to understand.

cc

 

I heard y'all callin' from way out on the range today!

 

As so many have already stated:

P + a Miss (for all the reasons already mentioned).

 

I see that the "P cannot cause a miss" misquote has already been addressed as well.

 

Thank y'all for participating.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PWB,

youre not addressing my question. post 84 is discussing staged items. the OP says nothing about staging the reload yet you ruled this a P+M. i believe my post shows the inconsistancy of this call. there are several experienced and educated shooters on both sides of this argument. i'm just trying to understand.

cc

 

I was addressing the last statement you made in post #78 about not assessing a "P" for a shooter who neglected to bring SG ammo to the line.

...just to see if anyone would catch the fact that the rule quoted in post #79 would NOT apply under those circumstances.

That was further clarified in post #83 after MM noticed it & mentioned a previous discussion on the RO Instructor Wire...

which I then reiterated in post #84 regarding staging ammo or firearms.

 

The MAJORITY of respondents posted the correct call for the OP situation.

I posted the applicable rules in #73.

 

Your initial question in post #78 as to what constitutes "attempt" was not addressed.

The shooter's actions after firing the first 10 shots would indicate whether any "attempt" was made or not...T/O's call.

 

There are different specific rules that would apply under different specific circumstances:

E.G.

1) Shooter didn't even attempt (brain fade?) to perform the mandatory reload = P + MISS (the OP situation)

2) Shooter attempted the reload; discovered he didn't have an extra round on his person = MISS only

3) Shooter attempted the reload, but dropped the only round he had on his person = MISS only.

4) Shooter attempted the reload; dropped the round; safely retrieved it & loaded it = MSV only

5) Shooter attempted the reload; dropped the round; broke the 170 while retrieving it = SDQ

6) Shooter attempted the reload; dropped the round; T/O handed him one from his belt = P + MISS

7) Shooter didn't attempt the reload (w/1860 Henry rifle)...tells the T/O that it would have taken longer than the 5-second MISS to load & fire a round = P + MISS + SOG

8) Shooter loudly & profanely disputes the SOG call with the T/O, PM, RM & MD = MDQ

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

What if the round was dropped...and then slipped into a parallel universe where it was retrived and then loaded...target hit...

 

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

The shooter's actions after firing the first 10 shots would indicate whether any "attempt" was made or not...T/O's call.

 

thats all i wanted to know.

thanks,

cc

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

What if the round was dropped...and then slipped into a parallel universe where it was retrived and then loaded...target hit...

 

 

If yer referring to that "parallel universe" in which there is no penalty for "retrieving a dropped round" (as it should be in THIS one, IMO) = NO CALL

 

The shooter's actions after firing the first 10 shots would indicate whether any "attempt" was made or not...T/O's call.

 

thats all i wanted to know.

thanks,

cc

 

I knew that...ref line 2 in post #84

...yer welcome.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

but but but but,,,,,what ifffff ifff ifff,,,,,,

 

Have a good day PWB, happy spring....to yuze

 

 

CPBC

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Wowzer!

 

That's one crazy list of potential calls, which leads me to believe there could be inconsistent application, espcially for folks that don't read the Wire, which is possibly most of SASS.

 

I can see someone who doesn't want to reload taking advantage of No. 2 by saying, "oops I forgot my reload" or No. 3 dropping the shell to take a miss.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Don't look at me. I shoot a Marlin and they are easy to reload.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Iwl look at yuze awl I wunt! neener neener!

 

Wowzer!

 

That's one crazy list of potential calls, which leads me to believe there could be inconsistent application, espcially for folks that don't read the Wire, which is possibly most of SASS.

 

I can see someone who doesn't want to reload taking advantage of No. 2 by saying, "oops I forgot my reload" or No. 3 dropping the shell to take a miss.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Don't look at me. I shoot a Marlin and they are easy to reload.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Wowzer!

 

That's one crazy list of potential calls, which leads me to believe there could be inconsistent application, espcially for folks that don't read the Wire, which is possibly most of SASS.

All of those situations are covered in the RO1...no need to dig through the Wire mire to find the answers....IMO.

 

 

I can see someone who doesn't want to reload taking advantage of No. 2 by saying, "oops I forgot my reload" or No. 3 dropping the shell to take a miss.

...& that would cost them the time for the "attempt/drop" + the 5 seconds

 

 

...

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Okay! I give.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Wait! I take that back. Maybe...

 

After sending PWB's clarification to "the local Gang," I received an email from a smart lady, who I have the pleasure of shooting with. She came up with the following simplification of the rules.

 

She proposed the following.

1. The 11th target when not engaged results in a P+M. (This could apply to any potential reload, whether the ammo is forgotten, dropped, and not attempted.)
2. The 11th target (any reload) engaged and missed = M .
3. The 11th target (any reload) engaged but wrong target of the same type hit = P.
4. The only reason you should be not required to engage the full array of targets without penalty is a gun failure = misses left in the gun.

 

What do you think?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Bart Solo]

Since I have actually done this very thing, I can tell you that it happens without any wrongful intent. There is no way I can get in the head of a shooter. I think that it is a miss for the reasons stated above. It has been a long time since it happened to me so I am a little fuzzy how it was scored.

 

 

 

.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I would suggest reviewing the applicable rules as they apply to those situations and consider the impact of making any changes base on this one "incident".

 

e.g.

#1) The "dropped or ejected ammo" rule - REF: RO1 p.19 #24

#2) no change to current rules

#3) no change to current rules

#4) ?? so...in the interest of "simplicity" a shooter who fumbles & drops his/her last SG round gets a 15-second penalty?

(see proposal #1) ?

 

The rules must be applicable to MOST of the common occurences on the firing line...

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Allie, I think that the suggestions are a great idea for including in the stage instructions.

 

With the myriad of possible stage scenarios, it is difficult for the general rules to clearly and easily be interpreted for all the various possibilities. As such, good stage instructions are most helpful.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Okay! I'm outta here! Y'all make the calls and I'll comment if I believe you are really nuts! LOL!

 

That was supposed to be funny...