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Captain Bill Burt

Yet Another You Make The Call

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Stage instructions call for shotgun last, any order. Two knockdowns plus one that activates a popper, instructions say a successful hit on the popper is a five second bonus, but a failure to hit the popper will not be counted as a miss. The shooter successfully hits two knockdowns, then misses the third (the one that activates the popper) with his first attempt. He hits the third with his second try, but has no additional ammo on his person with which to engage the popper (he came to the line with only four shotgun rounds) Two spotters call it clean with no bonus, one calls it a P for failure to engage the popper.

 

What's the call?

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Call the shooter overconfident (or forgetful) for only bringing four rounds on a 4+ stage.

 

:P

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Call the shooter overconfident (or forgetful) for only bringing four rounds on a 4+ stage.

 

:P

 

 

I agree with the P.. failure to engage

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Lol! What's really funny was the next stage was on the same bay, the same shooter came to the line with quite a few extra shotgun rounds but missed the popper activator so many times I lost count (low every time). Once again he successfully hit it with his last round and was unable to engage the flyer and once again the spotters split two to one in favor of clean as opposed to a P. Needless to say the 'discussion' continued for some time after the match was over.

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No call, give the shooter a break and the benefit of the doubt. Stage called for four rounds to be shot. He planned to shoot the flier, just ran out of ammo.

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No call, give the shooter a break and the benefit of the doubt. Stage called for four rounds to be shot. He planned to shoot the flier, just ran out of ammo.

 

I wasn't spotting, just chasing brass, but that would have been my call mainly because I had no idea what the correct call should be and thus would have given the shooter the benefit of the doubt. I wonder what the call would have been If the shooter had additional rounds but chose not to try for a popper he could not have hit due to reload time (he was shooting a double).

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The stage called for a minimun of 4 SG rounds to be fired. The shooter shot 4 SG rounds. Any target left standing, count as a miss. The bird was a bonus, not a miss. No bonus, no misses, no call.

 

Fillmore

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+1... No call..

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From the SASS handbook:

Failure to stage guns or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault of

the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation,

unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time.

I would expect a 'P' if I did this, for not bringing enough shells to the stage to complete the stage in case of a reasonable number of shotgun misses.

Rather than placate poor decisions by a shooter, often penalties can enforce the shooter the learn and make better decisions.

Just my $.02.

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From the SASS handbook:

Failure to stage guns or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault of

the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation,

unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time.

I would expect a 'P' if I did this, for not bringing enough shells to the stage to complete the stage in case of a reasonable number of shotgun misses.

Rather than placate poor decisions by a shooter, often penalties can enforce the shooter the learn and make better decisions.

Just my $.02.

 

Running out of ammo after firing (or ejecting/dropping) the number required for the stage is NOT covered under that particular rule.

The four rounds (minimum) required for the stage were brought to the line by the shooter in an approved manner and fired at appropriate targets.

(assuming that is so, barring any additional info to the contrary)

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The stage called for a minimun of 4 SG rounds to be fired. The shooter shot 4 SG rounds. Any target left standing, count as a miss. The bird was a bonus, not a miss. No bonus, no misses, no call.

 

Fillmore

 

But shouldn't the shooter have to attempt a shot at the bird? It seems like he should recieve the P. Because it was the fourth shotgun target to be engaged and he only engaged three targets.

The P seems right. It's the best way for the cowboy learn to fill the shotgun belt.

With that said, I went to the line with out a reload just today. And wouldn't you know I jacked one out :huh: It only cost me 5 seconds. Maybe I can learn a leason? :lol:

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But shouldn't the shooter have to attempt a shot at the bird? It seems like he should recieve the P. Because it was the fourth shotgun target to be engaged and he only engaged three targets.

The P seems right. It's the best way for the cowboy learn to fill the shotgun belt.

With that said, I went to the line with out a reload just today. And wouldn't you know I jacked one out :huh: It only cost me 5 seconds. Maybe I can learn a leason? :lol:

Using your logic you should have been given a 10 second P instead of a 5 second penalty. I still believe OP is a no call. Penalties are not there to teach shooter lessons, except maybe safety related penalties.

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There is no "rulebook" answer to this one.

This is from the RO2:

 

Targets that are activated by another target or prop (especially aerial shotgun targets) can be the source of varied interpretations and therefore require special instructions within the stage description to avoid problems.
RO2 p.4

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Perzackly what PWB sez in post #13.

 

No bonus and no P would be my way of thinkin!

 

 

..........Widder

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Rather than placate poor decisions by a shooter, often penalties can enforce the shooter the learn and make better decisions.

Just my $.02.

I doubt a penalty would drive the point any deeper than the experience itself already did.

 

Kinda like when a kid injures himself doing something foolish, and the father feels the need to use a belt to "teach you a lesson".

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Stage should have been written

 

Pop up target must be engaged.

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Running out of ammo after firing (or ejecting/dropping) the number required for the stage is NOT covered under that particular rule.

The four rounds (minimum) required for the stage were brought to the line by the shooter in an approved manner and fired at appropriate targets.

(assuming that is so, barring any additional info to the contrary)

 

Yes, the shooter did bring four rounds to the line in the correct manner (belt slide with two double loops) and did fire them appropriately.

 

AOH, IIRC the stage instructions did not say the popper had to be engaged, but merely stated it was a bonus with no penalty for a miss.

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Yes, the shooter did bring four rounds to the line in the correct manner (belt slide with two double loops) and did fire them appropriately.

 

AOH, IIRC the stage instructions did not say the popper had to be engaged, but merely stated it was a bonus with no penalty for a miss.

 

BB might chime in here since he wrote the stage but IIRC that is exactly what the instructions called for. When I shot the stage someone forgot to put a bird in the popper and when I hit the knockdown and was waiting for the bird to pop up nothing happened. Timer and spotters all yelled out for me to go ahead and fire a round....which I did. If I hadn't fired the 4th shotgun round I would have expected a P since the round count was 4 plus.

 

CBB, I would agree it would be a no call since the shooter did shoot at least 4 rounds.

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No call for this one. The simplest way to remedy these situations is to have left it as a simple hit or miss bird. A bonus shot for the last shot of a stage can lead to a definite time advantage for those that are unable to engage for whatever reason.

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Say you jack out a rifle round...so you never engage the last target. Would you give that shooter a "P"???

 

No....

 

Now I'm trying to figure out why anyone would make the bird a bonus...

 

:wacko:

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Phantom, as you know a 5 second "bonus" like this is really just a mind game that lets folks have a clean shoot, even if they do not get the "bird."

 

Since many folks do not get to shoot them often and some have trouble with them, folks can be discouraged. So sometimes the stage writer does it like this. you still get a 5 second advantage on your score if you hit it rather than miss it.

 

And you bring up a good logic about not having enough rounds for the last rifle target when you jack out a round.

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I say NO CALL !! We quit writing bonus targets years ago. They are a total nuisance. Bad for scorekeepers, and once hit not really a bonus for anyone. We use flipped birds at EVERY match here, They are a normal hit or miss target. We put out another target for buckaroos as sometimes they don't activate the launcher. If the stage calls for 4+ SG once you have fired 4 rounds you have met the requirement. See Phantom's post for more logic.

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BB might chime in here since he wrote the stage but IIRC that is exactly what the instructions called for. When I shot the stage someone forgot to put a bird in the popper and when I hit the knockdown and was waiting for the bird to pop up nothing happened. Timer and spotters all yelled out for me to go ahead and fire a round....which I did.If I hadn't fired the 4th shotgun round I would have expected a P since the round count was 4 plus.CBB, I would agree it would be a no call since the shooter did shoot at least 4 rounds.

I think that would only be a miss.

 

Fillmore

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should he had just reloaded and fired in the direction of the last target?

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----"When I shot the stage someone forgot to put a bird in the popper and when I hit the knockdown and was waiting for the bird to pop up nothing happened. Timer and spotters all yelled out for me to go ahead and fire a round....which I did. If I hadn't fired the 4th shotgun round I would have expected a P since the round count was 4 plus."

 

Kajun, why would you have expected a P for a stage malfunction????

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should he had just reloaded and fired in the direction of the last target?

It certainly is not sporting to shoot a bird on the ground :blink:

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Kajun, why would you have expected a P for a stage malfunction????

 

Round count was 4 plus....means you still have to shoot the 4th round regardless of a stage malfunction. Think of it this way, what if the round count for the shotgun part of the stage was 4 plus and there were 4 knockdown shotgun targets and lets say 3 of the 4 targets were reset but the 4th one wasn't. You'd still have to fire a round at the 4th shotgun target even though it was not reset. IMHO, this is the same thing for the bird not being put on the popper target. If the round count is plainly stated as 4 plus you have to shoot at least 4 shots and if the 4th and final shot is at a nonexistent popup bird I think you still have to expend the round. Failure to shoot 4 shots when the round count is 4 plus to me would be a failure to engage hence a P at least, even if the last shot is at a bonus target. All of this is my opinion here but it seems logical, at least in this Krazy Kajun mind :)

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Round count was 4 plus....means you still have to shoot the 4th round regardless of a stage malfunction. Think of it this way, what if the round count for the shotgun part of the stage was 4 plus and there were 4 knockdown shotgun targets and lets say 3 of the 4 targets were reset but the 4th one wasn't. You'd still have to fire a round at the 4th shotgun target even though it was not reset. IMHO, this is the same thing for the bird not being put on the popper target. If the round count is plainly stated as 4 plus you have to shoot at least 4 shots and if the 4th and final shot is at a nonexistent popup bird I think you still have to expend the round. Failure to shoot 4 shots when the round count is 4 plus to me would be a failure to engage hence a P at least, even if the last shot is at a bonus target. All of this is my opinion here but it seems logical, at least in this Krazy Kajun mind :)

 

 

Failure to engage??????? I was of the opinion that failure to engage was for a non-shooting activity, might be wrong tho. Lemme check again.

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R.O. I, page 24

 

PENALTY OVERVIEW

5-SECOND PENALTIES

Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A "miss" is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to

be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural "trap" by making it difficult to determine the shooter's intent when engaging the targets.

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round.

 

This is what I call a "primary definition" in that it applies even before looking at the flow chart.

And at the top of page 25:

To help understand this concept, a "MISS FLOW CHART" is found in Appendix C. It is also good to understand "A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL."

 

So unless the stage description specifically says that not shooting at the bird is a procedure, I believe the above rules apply. A miss only.

 

And if the stage were to say a procedure is required, then the shooter would be given both a miss and a procedure - which doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

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Failure to engage??????? I was of the opinion that failure to engage was for a non-shooting activity, might be wrong tho. Lemme check again.

 

I guess you could look at it that way; but a failure to fire (the last required round) would be a none shooting activity since you didn't fire the round. Kinda feel like a dog chasing my tail here!

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I guess you could look at it that way; but a failure to fire (the last required round) would be a none shooting activity since you didn't fire the round. Kinda feel like a dog chasing my tail here!

It would appear the only required rounds were to shoot 4 shotgun rounds. Not to specifically engage 4 different targets. Lucky for the shooter that the 4th was the flier and no miss can be levied since it was a bonus. Shooter gets a no call. If shooter shot his 4 rounds at the first knockdown and it nor any of the rest did not fall, he would just get 3 misses-i.e. no penalty for the bonus.

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I can maybe agree on just letting it pass..

 

But can't agree on the above scenario...

the original OP never said it was only 4 shotgun...

but it also never said it was 4+ shotgun rounds...

makes the call completely different

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Agree with PWB and Widder -- No Bonus and No P

 

that is what I would call.....

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