"Pop" Dawson Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Wondering if BP (expecially subs) will diminish the appearance and finish? Some of you guys that shoot the black whats it done to your guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Been shooting APP & Pinnacle in SS Ruger Vaqueros & ROAs, for about 4 years. I can't see any degragation in the finish anywhere, except for normal wear from handling. Can't answer for blued pistols. Shoot same in my Marlin, same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Won;t affect the finish - if'n ya keep 'em clean like any other gun GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Won't affect the finish - if'n ya keep 'em clean like any other gun Ditto. BP won't harm the blue on a gun. Failure to clean a BP gun can harm the blue, though. Have two 73's that have shot BP for about 8 years. No damage to finish. BP actually cleans the smokeless fouling from SS guns. My stainless Vaqueros always look spotless after shooting BP and cleaning them. They look less than clean when I've been shooting smokeless (that heathen powder). BP removes smokeless residue and lead fouling! Good luck, GJ Pyrodex will quickly rust blued and even stainless guns. If you insist on shooting that "bastardized" substitute powder, be ready to clean thoroughly and soon. I'll not shoot it again in cartridge guns, and probably never again in muzzleloaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Howdy Very often asked question. Funny thing. I was just going through my knife drawer and noticed some rust stains on some knives that are clearly labeled Stainless Steel. There are probably thousands of different industry standard alloys for Stainless Steel. The truth is, none of them are truly 'stainless'. If you look at the military specifications for stainless steels, they are not even called stainless. The military calls them Corrosion Resistant steel. Which is the point. ALL 'stainless steel' alloys will corrode (rust) if you treat them badly enough. Some are more resistant to corrosion than others. The different stainless alloys have different compositions for different qualities such as corrosion resistance, toughness, and wear resistance. Some resist corrosion better than others. But treat them badly enough and they will all rust. Obviously my 'stainless' knives are not a great alloy, or the dishwasher would not have caused rust stains on them. More than you wanted to know, huh? I shoot nothing but real Black Powder in CAS. Mostly I shoot it out of a pair of regular blued 2nd Generation Colts, an Uberti Henry and an old Stevens double. All arsenal grade tool steel, not Stainless. I also shoot Black Powder out of a blued EuroArms 1858 Remington, a blued Uberti Cattleman, and some original S&W Top Breaks. One is nickel plated, the other is simply blued. Oh yeah, I also occasionally shot real Black Powder out of a couple of 100+ year old Winchesters and a Marlin. While I was acquiring the Colts I regularly shot Black Powder out of a pair of Stainless 'original model' Vaqueros. So I have some experience with both blued and stainless with real Black Powder. I am here to tell you that if you shoot real Black Powder out of blued guns, and clean them in a reasonable amount of time, you will not experience problems with rust. By a 'reasonable amount of time' I mean if you clean them within a few days of shooting them. You do not have to rush home and clean them the same day, they will not disintegrate into a pile of rust. Been doing it for years now. I also had no problems with rust with the Stainless guns, again cleaning them in a reasonable amount of time. In truth, I see ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE, shooting real Black Powder from blued or stainless guns, as long as I clean them in a reasonable amount of time. If I were to get lazy, and I have been known to do that from time to time, yes, over an unreasonably long amount of time I will see some rust with the blued guns and I will not see any rust with the stainless guns. But only when I wait too long. Like several weeks. While I am at it, let me dispel another myth. Many shooters believe that Stainless guns are easier to clean than blued guns. Completely untrue. What makes a gun easy to clean is the degree of polish to the metal. A mirror finish gun will be easier to clean than a gun that has any texture to the finish. Has nothing to do with the actual alloy of the gun, it has to do with whether or not there is any 'tooth, (microscopic pits) for the fouling to cling to. Just like you rough up a surface to get paint to adhere better. I have run side by tests, and with both shiny stainless guns and shiny blued guns, it takes the exact same amount of elbow grease to clean them. One other point is, a light colored shiny finish of a Stainless gun may highlight any fouling still clinging to the surface, while a blued surface might hide the same fouling. Lots more than you wanted to know huh? Sorry, no experience with the subs. I suspect the story with APP and 777 will be the same. I have heard through the grape vine that Pyrodex is more corrosive, so that may make a difference, but I have no personal experience with it. One other thing. Shiny stainless guns can sometimes create enough glare that it is difficult to see the sights in bright sunlight. Easily corrected with a Sharpie. On the other hand, dark blue sights are sometimes difficult to see against dark targets on a cloudy day. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 +1 on the corrosive power of pyrodex. Learned the hard way, but not a totally catestrophic lesson - just minor damage. Definitely recommend rushing right home and cleaning after shooting pyrodex. Some state a few days is ok with the real deal holy black. I still clean my guns as soon as I get home if shooting anything but smokeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 +1 on the corrosive power of pyrodex. Learned the hard way, but not a totally catestrophic lesson - just minor damage. Definitely recommend rushing right home and cleaning after shooting pyrodex. Some state a few days is ok with the real deal holy black. I still clean my guns as soon as I get home if shooting anything but smokeless. I've gone 2-3 weeks before cleaning after shooting Goex. It's okay in a dry climate. Bad in a damp one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Pete, SASS # 29941 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Howdy, I've been shooting APP out of Ruger stainless Vaqueros for several years and have not noticed any issues with the finish of the revolvers as well as the finish on my Uberti '73 which is blue. My Stoeger shotgun is blue and nickle and I use real black in it, and agian, no issues on the finish. I tend to clean my guns the morning after a match. Sometimes, I wait an additional day, but still no issues. I live in Arizona and it is normally very dry. Buckeye Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Ah heck. I live in New England. Ask anybody who attended the Great Nor'Easter how humid it gets here in July or August. We have had shooters come up from the Deep South who were amazed how humid it gets here. Like I said, a few days will not cause a problem with blued guns. In the old days, it was the corrosive primers, coupled with BP fouling that caused most of the rust. We stopped using corrosive primers a long time ago. With modern non-corrosive primers, even in a humid environment, I have no problems waiting a few days to clean a blued firearm fired with real Black Powder. I am not going to go on record and tell you just how long I have gone without cleaning my shotgun, but it was a heck of a lot more than a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Pop" Dawson Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Thank you all for the replies.......... especially you Driftwood. I was going to PM you and ask you how you felt about this subject. As you helped me last month when we first started experimenting with BP. I let her Marlin rust, apparently I did not disassemble it and clean if throughly...... I did the bore and took the bolt out and sprayed it out inside the chamber and dried it with compressed air, then sprayed in a liberal amount of moose milk and three days later the carrier was barely moving. So I never told HER about that. She catches me looking at stainless guns last night and say what are you doing? I say I'm gonna get a couple of stainless guns to shoot bp in.........................I don't think I want to shoot it in my guns. Well, Boys let me tell you that did not go well. She about loses it and screams if its gonna ruin my guns, I don't wann shoot it either. So I thought I might better ask...... as bad as I hated too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Thank you all for the replies.......... especially you Driftwood. I was going to PM you and ask you how you felt about this subject. As you helped me last month when we first started experimenting with BP. I let her Marlin rust, apparently I did not disassemble it and clean if throughly...... I did the bore and took the bolt out and sprayed it out inside the chamber and dried it with compressed air, then sprayed in a liberal amount of moose milk and three days later the carrier was barely moving. So I never told HER about that. She catches me looking at stainless guns last night and say what are you doing? I say I'm gonna get a couple of stainless guns to shoot bp in.........................I don't think I want to shoot it in my guns. Well, Boys let me tell you that did not go well. She about loses it and screams if its gonna ruin my guns, I don't wann shoot it either. So I thought I might better ask...... as bad as I hated too. Pop, Try to find some of the Windex general purpose spray cleaner. It has vinegar and the vinegar is just acidic enough to help neutralize the salts in the BP. Flush and clean with it then hot water. To dry I like AutoZone brand brake parts cleaner. Then spray it with your favorite oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wire Paladin # 5954 L Regulator Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Wondering if BP (expecially subs) will diminish the appearance and finish? Some of you guys that shoot the black whats it done to your guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Howdy Very often asked question. Funny thing. I was just going through my knife drawer and noticed some rust stains on some knives that are clearly labeled Stainless Steel. There are probably thousands of different industry standard alloys for Stainless Steel. The truth is, none of them are truly 'stainless'. If you look at the military specifications for stainless steels, they are not even called stainless. The military calls them Corrosion Resistant steel. Which is the point. ALL 'stainless steel' alloys will corrode (rust) if you treat them badly enough. Some are more resistant to corrosion than others. The different stainless alloys have different compositions for different qualities such as corrosion resistance, toughness, and wear resistance. Some resist corrosion better than others. But treat them badly enough and they will all rust. Obviously my 'stainless' knives are not a great alloy, or the dishwasher would not have caused rust stains on them. More than you wanted to know, huh? I shoot nothing but real Black Powder in CAS. Mostly I shoot it out of a pair of regular blued 2nd Generation Colts, an Uberti Henry and an old Stevens double. All arsenal grade tool steel, not Stainless. I also shoot Black Powder out of a blued EuroArms 1858 Remington, a blued Uberti Cattleman, and some original S&W Top Breaks. One is nickel plated, the other is simply blued. Oh yeah, I also occasionally shot real Black Powder out of a couple of 100+ year old Winchesters and a Marlin. While I was acquiring the Colts I regularly shot Black Powder out of a pair of Stainless 'original model' Vaqueros. So I have some experience with both blued and stainless with real Black Powder. I am here to tell you that if you shoot real Black Powder out of blued guns, and clean them in a reasonable amount of time, you will not experience problems with rust. By a 'reasonable amount of time' I mean if you clean them within a few days of shooting them. You do not have to rush home and clean them the same day, they will not disintegrate into a pile of rust. Been doing it for years now. I also had no problems with rust with the Stainless guns, again cleaning them in a reasonable amount of time. In truth, I see ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE, shooting real Black Powder from blued or stainless guns, as long as I clean them in a reasonable amount of time. If I were to get lazy, and I have been known to do that from time to time, yes, over an unreasonably long amount of time I will see some rust with the blued guns and I will not see any rust with the stainless guns. But only when I wait too long. Like several weeks. While I am at it, let me dispel another myth. Many shooters believe that Stainless guns are easier to clean than blued guns. Completely untrue. What makes a gun easy to clean is the degree of polish to the metal. A mirror finish gun will be easier to clean than a gun that has any texture to the finish. Has nothing to do with the actual alloy of the gun, it has to do with whether or not there is any 'tooth, (microscopic pits) for the fouling to cling to. Just like you rough up a surface to get paint to adhere better. I have run side by tests, and with both shiny stainless guns and shiny blued guns, it takes the exact same amount of elbow grease to clean them. One other point is, a light colored shiny finish of a Stainless gun may highlight any fouling still clinging to the surface, while a blued surface might hide the same fouling. Lots more than you wanted to know huh? Sorry, no experience with the subs. I suspect the story with APP and 777 will be the same. I have heard through the grape vine that Pyrodex is more corrosive, so that may make a difference, but I have no personal experience with it. One other thing. Shiny stainless guns can sometimes create enough glare that it is difficult to see the sights in bright sunlight. Easily corrected with a Sharpie. On the other hand, dark blue sights are sometimes difficult to see against dark targets on a cloudy day. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Look at thos knife again..does it say "Stainless' and "China"?? That;s a city in China...Stainless ,China !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Look at thos knife again..does it say "Stainless' and "China"??That;s a city in China...Stainless ,China !!! Nope, they don't list the country of origin. And I didn't save the packaging, so I dunno where they came from. But I should have known the price was too good. I have some other stainless knives made in Germany. No problems with rust. Bottom line is, some CRES alloys are better at corrosion resistance than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Pop" Dawson Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Pop, Try to find some of the Windex general purpose spray cleaner. It has vinegar and the vinegar is just acidic enough to help neutralize the salts in the BP. Flush and clean with it then hot water. To dry I like AutoZone brand brake parts cleaner. Then spray it with your favorite oil. I'll try brake cleaner Nate thanks. I usually use starting fluid....... have for many many years. That stuff evaporates so fast its not funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I usually use starting fluid....... have for many many years. That stuff evaporates so fast its not funny. Starting fluid - An incredible fire hazard, too. And an anesthetic. Hope you are not using that indoors. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge'm All Duncan, SASS#67320 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 *1 for Nate!! I use Windex with vinegar and then strait Ballistol before I hang'em up. When you mix it with water is when you have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Threebars, SASS #35671 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Wondering if BP (expecially subs) will diminish the appearance and finish? Some of you guys that shoot the black whats it done to your guns? I shoot Triple 7 in blue & stainless guns and it doesn't affect the finish. R3B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Howdy Very often asked question. Funny thing. I was just going through my knife drawer and noticed some rust stains on some knives that are clearly labeled Stainless Steel. Driftwood, I know from watching CSI on TV that they can determine DNA from "rust" stains on knives. Not that I am accusing you of anything illegal but a suggestion offered in the spirit of blood, er, rust free clean eating ware across America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I shoot APP in a salt-n-pepper set of Ruger OMVs: one case-colored/Blued and one in sstl. I have learned to clean my guns at the end of the match while the scores are being tallied. I have seen no difference in how the steels/finishes clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Pop" Dawson Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Starting fluid - An incredible fire hazard, too. And an anesthetic. Hope you are not using that indoors. Good luck, GJ In the man cave or right out the door. It just melts the gunk and crap out of them. The range officers used it at the PD. I picked it up and been using it ever since, now this black is different, it rusted anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I admit to being a tad lazy. When I get home from a match, I'm usually too tired to clean the guns, and say I'll do it tomorrow. Well, tomorrow more often than not turns out to be next Saturday. After a week, some of the BP fouling has turned into a light gray powder. So far, no rust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
German Jim Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Driftwood Johnson: You should take all your sage advise that you have posted here on the wire, index and chapter it and then publish it all in a book. You'd probably sell a million copies. I sure enjoy reading your posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Pop" Dawson Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 Driftwood Johnson: You should take all your sage advise that you have posted here on the wire, index and chapter it and then publish it all in a book. You'd probably sell a million copies. I sure enjoy reading your posts! +1 I do too............. Would like to shoot with him at least once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan Cord Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I live in the kind of dry low desert part of So Cal. Work and family obligations have me on a schedule that is impossible to predict. With that said, I have no excuse for not cleaning my guns after shooting BP in them for 4 months. I got busy and just plumb forgot. Ruger stainless steel did not rust after shooting Goex through them and waiting 4 months to be cleaned. I was very happy to find that out. I was very lucky and don't plan on trying to push my luck again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Pop" Dawson Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 One more question......... gonna shoot the bp at Ocoee Rangers monthly this Saturday. Is there anything I can or should do to the firearms before hand as most of them have been smokeless only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mean Matt McCord, SASS #24683 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Ah heck. I live in New England. Ask anybody who attended the Great Nor'Easter how humid it gets here in July or August. We have had shooters come up from the Deep South who were amazed how humid it gets here. Like I said, a few days will not cause a problem with blued guns. In the old days, it was the corrosive primers, coupled with BP fouling that caused most of the rust. We stopped using corrosive primers a long time ago. With modern non-corrosive primers, even in a humid environment, I have no problems waiting a few days to clean a blued firearm fired with real Black Powder. I am not going to go on record and tell you just how long I have gone without cleaning my shotgun, but it was a heck of a lot more than a few days. What he said. A lot of people are under the impression that high humidity is only in the deep South. But if you live anywhere east of the Mississippi River, it is humid in the summer time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 If you are planning to shoot BP or subs in a gun that has been used for smokeless, I recommend cleaning the guns very well before shooting BP or subs. The BP and subs come off the metal very well but the higher temps of the BP/subs seem to bake the smokeless residue onto the metal (my guess). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 If you are planning to shoot BP or subs in a gun that has been used for smokeless, I recommend cleaning the guns very well before shooting BP or subs. The BP and subs come off the metal very well but the higher temps of the BP/subs seem to bake the smokeless residue onto the metal (my guess). ++++++1!!!! I know I'm too late on this reply to help, since you're shooting TODAY, but remember - BP & Smokeless fouling don't play well together. They will combine to form the most durable (and most undesirable) finish in whatever nook they find. On the frame around the forcing cone & ejector opening, it's just a nuisance, but if the bore's not throroughly cleaned beforehand, you'll have your work cut out for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry McKenna #700L Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Driftwood Johnson: You should take all your sage advise that you have posted here on the wire, index and chapter it and then publish it all in a book. You'd probably sell a million copies. I sure enjoy reading your posts! Yep, Driftwood is the most articulate and credible pard on the wire. Facts and experience, all expressed in a friendly and readable tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Starting fluid, brake cleaner, carb cleaner etc. are great for cleaning - bear in mind they also remove every last bit of oil, grease and rust protectant from the firearm. It is VERY important to re-apply rust preventatives after using these solvents ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 With any powder you need to always pay a bit of extra attention to the ejector rod, its housing and spring. I also like to pull the cylinder pin latch and swab all through holes in that area of the frame. It only adds a couple of minutes and these are the primary breeding grounds for hidden rust. On me toggle links I tend to be a bit more attentive with the mag tube, spring and follower. Complete disassembly on my most used set of guns only happens once/twice a year. I have several sets of guns that do need to be well stripped for cleaning, with each use, since they are only in the rotation only rarely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Pop" Dawson Posted August 28, 2011 Author Share Posted August 28, 2011 Well, I just got through cleaning the 8 guns we shot today!!! What a blast, both Duchess and I think we are on to something. I thought I might be a little slower, but I was right on my A game. The pistols had a gray substance in the ends of the cylinder and the barrels by the time we got home but it came right out. I used the 50-50 mix of windex and vinegar in two of the pistols and the moose mix on the other two. Then the brake cleaner and then Eezox to finish them up. I swear, I think the shotguns are the cleanest since new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178 Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Good on ya! You may have noted that the cylinder faces are a lot cleaner than they've ever been. BP will remove those lead stains that smokeless leaves behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I recall, that vinegar will remove bluing. Probably best not to leave in set on the gun too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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