"dropped round" rule clarification

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

A friend and I have been having a discussion about this rule and he reads the following emphasized text differently than I do and we'd like a clarification. (Actually, I just want you to say I'm right.) As with another case, I've been certain of my knowledge of this rule for years, but here goes.

 

From the ROI book, page 20:

24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of loading or reloading any firearm during a

stage or “ejected” is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes

the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as

required by stage description, or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot.

For example, if a round of shotgun ammo is dropped while loading, the round must be

replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or counted

as a miss. No attempt may be made by the shooter, or any other person, to pick up the

dropped round for use on that stage. Shooters trying to recover a dropped round prompts loss

of muzzle direction control. Once the dropped round leaves the shooter’s hand or control, it

is considered to be a dead round. Stop the shooter if he tries to recover the dead round. It is

a 10-second Minor Safety Violation if the shooter retrieves the round during the stage.

Staged rounds that are dropped back where they were staged are NOT considered “dead.”

For example, if a round is staged in a box on a table and it is dropped back into the box, it

may be picked up. If it falls onto the table, it may not be picked up. Rounds safely “placed”

onto a prop from their original loading area are not considered “dropped” rounds as long as

recovering these rounds does not create loss of muzzle control

 

Let's say a shooter starts with pistol, then picks up shotgun and pulls two rounds from his belt, realizes rifle is next, sets rounds and shotgun on table shoots rifle, then picks shotgun and rounds back up off of table and engages shotgun targets. I say it's no call. He says it is a MSV.

 

Please tell me I'm right, again.

Thanks,

Possum

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

No call. The key word is "placed", in that he deliberately set them down.

[Grizzly Dave]

Sounds like they are placed to me, no call.

[Griff]

Right again, no call.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

A friend and I have been having a discussion about this rule and he reads the following emphasized text differently than I do and we'd like a clarification. (Actually, I just want you to say I'm right.) As with another case, I've been certain of my knowledge of this rule for years, but here goes.

 

From the ROI book, page 20:

24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of loading or reloading any firearm during a

stage or “ejected” is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes

the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as

required by stage description, or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot.

For example, if a round of shotgun ammo is dropped while loading, the round must be

replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or counted

as a miss. No attempt may be made by the shooter, or any other person, to pick up the

dropped round for use on that stage. Shooters trying to recover a dropped round prompts loss

of muzzle direction control. Once the dropped round leaves the shooter’s hand or control, it

is considered to be a dead round. Stop the shooter if he tries to recover the dead round. It is

a 10-second Minor Safety Violation if the shooter retrieves the round during the stage.

Staged rounds that are dropped back where they were staged are NOT considered “dead.”

For example, if a round is staged in a box on a table and it is dropped back into the box, it

may be picked up. If it falls onto the table, it may not be picked up. Rounds safely “placed”

onto a prop from their original loading area are not considered “dropped” rounds as long as

recovering these rounds does not create loss of muzzle control

 

Let's say a shooter starts with pistol, then picks up shotgun and pulls two rounds from his belt, realizes rifle is next, sets rounds and shotgun on table shoots rifle, then picks shotgun and rounds back up off of table and engages shotgun targets. I say it's no call. He says it is a MSV.

 

Please tell me I'm right, again.

Thanks,

Possum

 

 

NO Call your example is text book and the key word is placed, if had dropped the rounds and set shotgun down then came back and used the rounds then it would have been a MSV but he placed them.

 

KK

[Presidio]

SG rounds were "placed" or "staged".

 

No Call.

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

The test is if the shooter "lost control of the rounds", they they were dropped.

 

It seems that your "friend" needs to show you rules that support his position, you are showing rules that support your position.

 

Blackfoot

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Another no call here. As has been stated, it's a classic case of doing what the rules allow. Possum, since he's a friend of yours, if you'd like I can come there and slap him around a bit...unless he happens to also be a friend of mine...or big...or bad...or can shoot. If that's the case, you're on your own!

[Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859]

PS,

You're 2 for 2. It sounds like your "friend" falls in the "hard ass" category.

[Dubious Don #56333]

No call. Rounds were "placed"

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

It's a no call. Several years ago at EOT we had a posse member given a MSV for this very reason and we complained to the posse marshal to no avail. I went and ask PWB who was one of the match officials (and our rules guru) and he ruled that it was a no call and the score for that person was corrected. She was very happy I asked to pursue the issue.

Scout

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

You da man!

[Cassalong Hopidy]

I am with all those who say No Call, but have to add that the import of the words "from their original loading area" is unclear to me.

 

Cassalong Hopidy

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

From my saddle it's a clear no call. One can't pick and choose the rules to support their own agenda. You have to be familiar with all the rules and apply them all.

[Blackey Cole]

You're right on this one it's a No Call.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

It's pretty obvious he has never read this rule.

 

From RO1 page 6. under RANGE OFFICER ATTITUDE.

 

4. Don’t be a “hard-ass.”.................

..................

 

 

9. Always read the rulebook from the contestant’s

viewpoint.

 

10. Always give the contestant the benefit of doubt.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

I am with all those who say No Call, but have to add that the import of the words "from their original loading area" is unclear to me.

 

Cassalong Hopidy

 

That would be from the belt, slide, bandoleer, pocket, pouch, strong box, clothes pin bag, bucket o beans, etc.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

 

Let's say a shooter starts with pistol, then picks up shotgun and pulls two rounds from his belt, realizes rifle is next, sets rounds and shotgun on table shoots rifle, then picks shotgun and rounds back up off of table and engages shotgun targets. I say it's no call. He says it is a MSV.

 

Please tell me I'm right, again.

Thanks,

Possum

Yer right again

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Ya'll don't be too hard on him now. He's a good pard. That was just what he interpreted the rules, as written, to mean. Not what he wanted them to mean.

 

Thank you all for your affirmative answers. I love being right.

 

Possum

[Cowboy Junky]

Ya'll don't be too hard on him now. He's a good pard. That was just what he interpreted the rules, as written, to mean. Not what he wanted them to mean.

 

Thank you all for your affirmative answers. I love being right.

 

Possum

 

I was right once.........can hardly remember what it felt like

[Cassalong Hopidy]

That would be from the belt, slide, bandoleer, pocket, pouch, strong box, clothes pin bag, bucket o beans, etc.

 

 

What do those words add to the meaning of the rule? It would have the same meaning we are giving if it simply read "Rounds safely 'placed' onto a prop are not considered 'dropped' rounds as long as recovering these rounds does not create loss of muzzle control."

 

Cassalong Hopidy

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

"the import of the words "from their original loading area" is unclear to me"

 

What do those words add to the meaning of the rule? It would have the same meaning we are giving if it simply read "Rounds safely 'placed' onto a prop are not considered 'dropped' rounds as long as recovering these rounds does not create loss of muzzle control."

 

Cassalong Hopidy

The rules are written to PREVENT someone from coming to the line, laying down a shotgun, pulling 4 shells from their pockets and "staging" the shells on a prop (for easier access), before the buzzer starts the stage. Standard rules require carrying ammo for shotgun or extra ammo for reloading on the person, in a approved belt, pouch, pocket, etc. Unless the stage description calls for something else (grab shells from a bucket, etc), you have to keep the shells in your ammo accessory until you are ready to use them (otherwise, they are illegally acquired ammunition).

 

Also, as we have been discussing, if you pull those shells at the wrong time, the rule that the OP was about allows you to PLACE them, on the clock, onto a prop where you can retrieve them at the correct time, without any penalty.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Griff]

What do those words add to the meaning of the rule? It would have the same meaning we are giving if it simply read "Rounds safely 'placed' onto a prop are not considered 'dropped' rounds as long as recovering these rounds does not create loss of muzzle control."

Cassalong Hopidy

IMO, it means that rounds for use during a stage must be brought to the line in a legal manner. Ya can't carry yer spare ammo up there in yer fist or other illegal manner and plop 'em down on the prop.

[Cassalong Hopidy]

The rules are written to PREVENT someone from coming to the line, laying down a shotgun, pulling 4 shells from their pockets and "staging" the shells on a prop (for easier access), before the buzzer starts the stage. Standard rules require carrying ammo for shotgun or extra ammo for reloading on the person, in a approved belt, pouch, pocket, etc. Unless the stage description calls for something else (grab shells from a bucket, etc), you have to keep the shells in your ammo accessory until you are ready to use them (otherwise, they are illegally acquired ammunition).

 

Also, as we have been discussing, if you pull those shells at the wrong time, the rule that the OP was about allows you to PLACE them, on the clock, onto a prop where you can retrieve them at the correct time, without any penalty.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

I guess that makes some sense, Joe. I don't think of an ammo belt or slide as an "area," though. And the Shooter's Handbook (p. 11)already admonishes shoots to carry ammunition "on the shooter's person" unless they are to be placed elsewhere "as required by stage instructions." I think that is a clearer prohibition of the scenario you describe. Having spent plenty of time writing, however, I know how difficult it is to put anything into words that is incapable of misinterpretation, so maybe the phrase is just there to emphasize the point that you can only "place" rounds onto a prop if you took them in hand from your belt, slide, pocket, pouch or other location they were at when you began the shooting sequence.