What do ya think happened?

[Long Branch Louie]

Shooter starts a stage, is shooting a 66 Winchester. Shoots about 3-4 shots, all sounds normal, then rifle won't chamber next round. Gun is grounded and taken to unloading table. We determine there is a round stuck in the barrel, just far enough back to keep the next round from chambering. Got the stuck bullet out and everything is fine. We did not find a split case, though it is possible because a couple of shooters shot their stage after and the brass could have gotten in theirs. As I said, the shot sounded normal, not a squib. What do ya think happened??

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

Shooter starts a stage, is shooting a 66 Winchester. Shoots about 3-4 shots, all sounds normal, then rifle won't chamber next round. Gun is grounded and taken to unloading table. We determine there is a round stuck in the barrel, just far enough back to keep the next round from chambering. Got the stuck bullet out and everything is fine. We did not find a split case, though it is possible because a couple of shooters shot their stage after and the brass could have gotten in theirs. As I said, the shot sounded normal, not a squib. What do ya think happened??

 

 

If tha shot rung steel, I'd say maybe 2 bullets were loaded in tha case. I would also figger that woulda raised hell with tha rifle. Have no idea other than that Louie.

 

 

RRR

[Oliver Loving]

If tha shot rung steel, I'd say maybe 2 bullets were loaded in tha case. I would also figger that woulda raised hell with tha rifle. Have no idea other than that Louie.

 

 

RRR

The above sounds very likely. Even though the last round fired didn't sound like a squib you ended up with a bullet in the barrel. You're really lucky the next round wouldn't cycle into the chamber. Could have caused rifle damage or injury. Glad everything worked out safely.

 

Oliver

[Stump Water]

I'd say maybe 2 bullets were loaded in tha case.

 

This ain't billiards. Tha back bullet ain't gonna knock the front one out. And the bullet in front isn't going faster than the one behind it.

 

I'm going with split brass.

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

This ain't billiards. Tha back bullet ain't gonna knock the front one out. And the bullet in front isn't going faster than the one behind it.

 

I'm going with split brass.

 

Agree.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

My guess - Slight out of battery discharge. Action could have been open about 1/2 inch when shooter tripped the trigger - 66s do that, except the early ones that Uberti put a trigger safety on. With just a little bit of the case out of the chamber, the case is strong enough to handle the pressure without blowing into shreds, especially with CAS type loads. Might be able to find a case that is slightly swollen near the base. But, then again, if you don't scoop up brass after each shooter, some other pard could easily have gone home with the evidence.

 

Shooter should have noticed a fair amount of blowback if this was the cause. All the combustion gases would have blown back from the chamber, and with the 66 open-topped design of the action, there would have been a face full of gas and unburnt powder particles.

 

Shooter may want to check his lever against another known good lever, just to make sure the lever did not bend - many do with an OOB.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Two bullets in one case, have seen it now 3 different times. It does happen.

[Grouchy Greg, SASS#71981]

Sounds to me like somebody's not closely monitoring their reloading process. Several pards I know regularly have wide variances in the powder charges of their rounds.

[Stump Water]

Two bullets in one case, have seen it now 3 different times. It does happen.

 

Sure two bullets in one case happens.

 

Can ya 'splain at me how the front one got out the barrel when the back one stopped?

 

Or is the hypothesis that the front one lodged and the back one remained in the case and was ejected?

[Seamus McGillicuddy]

Could be no powder in the case. Primer only squib.

[Assassin]

Sounds like it's time for an experiment. I'll have to load two bullets in one case and try it out.

 

What caliber was the rifle and what weight bullet?

Now if someone was to load those 160 grain 45's and the hidden bullet turned sideways in that big case I could see the bullet being lodged in the barrel.

 

That's why some bullet manufacturers will not produce anything smaller than 200 grain bullets for 45.

 

LL'

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Sure two bullets in one case happens.

 

Can ya 'splain at me how the front one got out the barrel when the back one stopped?

 

Or is the hypothesis that the front one lodged and the back one remained in the case and was ejected?

 

All three instances there was no evidence of a squib,but all three were unable to chamber the next round. I was the RO at the time. The first time I ever saw it was while my wife was shooting and remembered finding a case with no bullet but had primer in the bin and thinking nothing of it. I can't explain why one bullet leaves the barrel and the other does not,but it did happen that way. I ain't the brightest bulb in the pack but I am fairly observant and know what I saw,heard and knocked out of the barrel.

[Manatee]

Stump: You are thinking logically about mechanical interaction. However, I suspect that fluid dynamics plays a greater role. You have gas under high pressure exerting different forces on the two projectiles: one is crimped at the end of the case and the other is 'free-floating' within the case.

 

But, go back to billiards and beer if it makes you feel any better.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Stump: You are thinking logically about mechanical interaction. However, I suspect that fluid dynamics plays a greater role. You have gas under high pressure exerting different forces on the two projectiles: one is crimped at the end of the case and the other is 'free-floating' within the case.

 

But, go back to billiards and beer if it makes you feel any better.

 

Wouldn't the presence of the second bullet down in the case raise the pressure level by a considerable amount?

 

I'm not sure but it seems that a double loaded round should sound differently because of the higher pressure.........who knows.......

 

Stan

[Manatee]

You definitely could have an overpressure situation, but if Deuce's observations are correct, then it is likely that the gases encapsulate the round in the case, forcing the crimped round out of the cartridge with sufficient speed to exit the barrel. The remaining round would then exit the cartridge with only a minimal velocity, causing it to lodge in the chamber throat.

 

I'm not a physicist, but I can visualize the cased round moving backwards initially, then forward after the crimped round exits. How does it move forward? Inertia, low pressure/vacuum, residual gases....I dunno.

 

Side note: For a number of years, many of the gunsmiths and other folks on the Wire thought that the trigger had to be pulled when a round partially stuck in the chamber was set off in an 'out of battery' discharge. Cypress Sam's experiments and videos proved otherwise.

 

Conventional wisdom does not always work.

[Long Branch Louie]

It DID ring the steel as I recall, I wasn't spotting so I'm not sure. I'm thinking the two bullets in the case is correct, because there was no difference in the sound of the shot, it was definitely not a squib, so no one was surprised when he tried to lever another round. Guess it was lucky indeed that it stopped short enough to keep the next round from chambering....

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

it is likely that the gases encapsulate the round bullet in the case, forcing the crimped round slug out of the cartridge with sufficient speed to exit the barrel. The remaining round slug would then exit the cartridge with only a minimal velocity exerted by the almost spent gases, causing it to lodge in the chamber throat.

 

I've looked closely at a couple of double-bulleted loaded cartridges in .38 special. They all had a slightly visible bulge in the case wall that showed the lower bullet was a more-than-snug fit in the case. The inside diameter of the case there was small enough that the bullet inside had bulged the case wall so you could "see" the bullet telegraphed through the wall. This would be enough, I am inclined to say, to form a pretty good gas seal. If that lower bullet is forming a good gas seal, then powder gases cannot get around the lower bullet and act only on the upper bullet, leaving the lower bullet behind and able to exit at much slower velocities later.

 

The inertial forces on bullets at time of firing don't cause a bullet that is loose in the case to be forced down into the case. Those forces cause a bullet to pull loose from a case. Consider the common problems with loosely crimped revolver cartridges in, say, a .44 mag revolver. Firing the first round or two can loosen the bullets in the rest of the cylinder so that bullets creep forward in the case, to the point of jamming the cylinder because the nose has moved forward enough to snag the barrel as the cylinder tries to rotate. Same with loose balls in a C&B revolver. The inertial force of firing in another chamber of the revolver cylinder moves a bullet forward in the case of unfired rounds.

 

(The problem of bullets collapsing into cases in mag tubes of lever rifles is caused by a totally different mechanical arrangement than just the bullet crimped in a case. The recoil of firing compacts the rounds in the mag tube forward, compressing the mag spring. As recoil stops, the mag spring pushes the stack of loaded rounds back down the tube to their original position. When the stack comes to a stop, there is a fair amount of force available, especially on the cartridge right at the action, that collapses that bullet into the case, especially with a split case or a weak crimp.)

 

So, some of this speculation is just not adding up with the principals of internal ballistics. I'd encourage you to keep on thinking, gents.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Taquila Tab, Sass #25048]

My guess would be there simply was not enough powder in the case. I've had it happen to me before when my reloading machine threw an extremely light load (bridged powder funnel). The bullet started down the barrel like normal just didn't have enough power to get very far. Thankfully, I wasn't able to chamber the next round in the rifle either which saved me from a big problem.

 

As to the spotters hearing it ring steel, perhaps they were mistaken and heard a hit from another stage. At the Midwest Classic on one stage the spotters and TO all said a shooter was clean when in fact he had jacked out a round and never even attempted a reload. Stranger things have happened.

[Griff]

Not all sizers are equal, neither are all projectiles; IF the back projectile was floating in the case with enough gases flowing around it to expel the front bullet, the nose of bullet #2 would most likely be covered with soot, except where it'd been knocked out of the leade. Quite feasible if that bullet was loose in the case with being handled & recoil from previous shots some powder might have migrated in front of it. Otherwise it was probably a squib and just sounded like the shooter's normal loads.

[Manatee]

I've looked closely at a couple of double-bulleted loaded cartridges in .38 special. They all had a slightly visible bulge in the case wall that showed the lower bullet was a more-than-snug fit in the case. The inside diameter of the case there was small enough that the bullet inside had bulged the case wall so you could "see" the bullet telegraphed through the wall. This would be enough, I am inclined to say, to form a pretty good gas seal. If that lower bullet is forming a good gas seal, then powder gases cannot get around the lower bullet and act only on the upper bullet, leaving the lower bullet behind and able to exit at much slower velocities later.

 

The inertial forces on bullets at time of firing don't cause a bullet that is loose in the case to be forced down into the case. Those forces cause a bullet to pull loose from a case. Consider the common problems with loosely crimped revolver cartridges in, say, a .44 mag revolver. Firing the first round or two can loosen the bullets in the rest of the cylinder so that bullets creep forward in the case, to the point of jamming the cylinder because the nose has moved forward enough to snag the barrel as the cylinder tries to rotate. Same with loose balls in a C&B revolver. The inertial force of firing in another chamber of the revolver cylinder moves a bullet forward in the case of unfired rounds.

 

(The problem of bullets collapsing into cases in mag tubes of lever rifles is caused by a totally different mechanical arrangement than just the bullet crimped in a case. The recoil of firing compacts the rounds in the mag tube forward, compressing the mag spring. As recoil stops, the mag spring pushes the stack of loaded rounds back down the tube to their original position. When the stack comes to a stop, there is a fair amount of force available, especially on the cartridge right at the action, that collapses that bullet into the case, especially with a split case or a weak crimp.)

 

So, some of this speculation is just not adding up with the principals of internal ballistics. I'd encourage you to keep on thinking, gents.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Well, the mathematics escape me. While the brass is resized to the bullet diameter, the chamber is not. Perhaps the larger chamber accounts for the speed differential of the two bullets? Hard to say when we're dealing with 1000's of lbs/in² and chambers longer than the cartridge used. I don't know.

 

If the bullet remained in the chamber after the first bullet exited the cartridge, then recoil and Newton's law would come into play.

 

Again, nothing definitive, but unless there is an alternate hypothesis for the two-bullet theory.........

[BJT]

I was inclined to think there was no way but........

 

 

The forward bullet has a severe pressure differential that would move it down the barrel. The aft bullet does not have much of a pressure differential until the forward bullet leaves the barrel. Until the forward bullet leaves the barrel or the pressure curve starts to lower providing a pressure differential due to the increasing volume due to the forward bullet moving down the barrel, it would seem very possible the forward bullet accelerates while the aft bullet remains in the chamber.

 

Interesting stuff......

 

BJT

[Stump Water]

Perhaps the larger chamber accounts for the speed differential of the two bullets? Hard to say when we're dealing with 1000's of lbs/in² and chambers longer than the cartridge used. I don't know.

 

If the bullet remained in the chamber after the first bullet exited the cartridge, then recoil and Newton's law would come into play.

 

Again, nothing definitive, but unless there is an alternate hypothesis for the two-bullet theory.........

 

Interesting thought. If both bullets are in freebore (or the back bullet is still in freebore after the front bullet engages the lands) then gas/presure could get around/in between the two bullets and, in effect, push them apart, thereby slowing the back bullet and accelerating the front bullet.

 

More likely in the event of a .38 spl case in a .357 mag chamber.

 

Interesting.

 

 

ETA: Did I just say the same thing as BJT?

[Buckshot Frank]

Did anyone ever say what caliber that it was? If it was a bottle-necked cartridge, the back bullet would essentially be loose in the case while the front bullet would have increased pressure behind it. I've seen surplus Turkish 8mm like this. Is the .44-40 bottle-necked enough for this to occur?

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

My guess would be there simply was not enough powder in the case. I've had it happen to me before when my reloading machine threw an extremely light load (bridged powder funnel). The bullet started down the barrel like normal just didn't have enough power to get very far. Thankfully, I wasn't able to chamber the next round in the rifle either which saved me from a big problem.

 

As to the spotters hearing it ring steel, perhaps they were mistaken and heard a hit from another stage. At the Midwest Classic on one stage the spotters and TO all said a shooter was clean when in fact he had jacked out a round and never even attempted a reload. Stranger things have happened.

 

That's the correct answer. You guys are over-thinking it. Down loaded ammo is the culprit. It usually happens the first time they try the load on a cold morning, too. It will sound normal but just won't push the bullet out. I can't tell you how many times I've had guns brought to me with bullets stuck. The lucky ones will leave the butllet just started into the rifling so that the next round won't chamber. The not so lucky end up with a "walnut" (a bulged barrel).

The strangest one was a revolver with 4 bullets stacked in the barrel. The gun was locked up so I had to remeove the barrel, first. No big deal, I figured it would require a new barrel anyway. Come to find out the barrel survived. I managed to drill the bullets out with a masking taped pilot on a long drill bit.

[Manatee]

Sounds like it's time for an experiment. I'll have to load two bullets in one case and try it out.

 

What caliber was the rifle and what weight bullet?

Now if someone was to load those 160 grain 45's and the hidden bullet turned sideways in that big case I could see the bullet being lodged in the barrel.

 

That's why some bullet manufacturers will not produce anything smaller than 200 grain bullets for 45.

 

LL'

 

I would urge you not to try it. The testing is equivalent to redneck darwinism. Always follow mfr recommendations.

[SGT. QUINCANNON, SASS #32999]

NO idea what happened- just glad nobody was hurt!

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

Fellas tell ye what, tha only time I've ever had a bullet stuck in my rifle barrel was on a sweep and I had NO misses up to that point and then tha next round would not chamber! I don't care if you are albert einstein, I know what happened to tha rifle in my hands. And as far as low powder charge sounding normal, tha 38 cal 125 grn was loaded with a MAX load of Red Dot.

 

 

RRR

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Fellas tell ye what, tha only time I've ever had a bullet stuck in my rifle barrel was on a sweep and I had NO misses up to that point and then tha next round would not chamber! I don't care if you are albert einstein, I know what happened to tha rifle in my hands. And as far as low powder charge sounding normal, tha 38 cal 125 grn was loaded with a MAX load of Red Dot.

 

 

RRR

 

Ditto, guess we are liars.

[Tom Bullweed]

Split brass is likely.

Another possibility, at least with fast cycling, is that the primer blew out of the case due to a worn primer pocket and the resultant pressure was too low to push the bullet out of the barrel.

[Long Branch Louie]

Ditto, guess we are liars.

I'm inclined to agree with ya and RRR, both got a LOT more experience at this game than me. It was a .38 round, it was not early in the morning, not cold, and I didn't hear steel ring from another berm. The shot sounded NORMAL, as I said, nobody yelled STOP and nothing was out of the ordinary until he couldn't chamber the next round. I personally drove out the bullet with a rod I keep just for that. Unless somebody with a physics degree can explain what happens when two projectiles are in the same case, I go with it. Besides, the back bullet wouldn't have been crimped, and it had to expand the case when it went in....

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Sounds like it's time for an experiment. I'll have to load two bullets in one case and try it out.

 

What caliber was the rifle and what weight bullet?

Now if someone was to load those 160 grain 45's and the hidden bullet turned sideways in that big case I could see the bullet being lodged in the barrel.

 

That's why some bullet manufacturers will not produce anything smaller than 200 grain bullets for 45.

 

LL'

 

PLEASE don't. Loading 2 bullets in one case is very very VERY foolhardy. It will wreck the gun and maybe hurt someone.

 

There are many recorded instances of such a grenade taking the topstrap and top half of the cylinder completely off of Colts and clones.

 

I was present one day when a pard did just that with his pet Colt 45. A pard had passed and the widow gave him a coffe can of reloads. He should have known better. Apparently it was a Ruger only or Contender load. The gun was wrecked. Top strap separated at the barrel and bent way over backwards. Top half of the cylinder gone into outer space and never recovered. Thankfully he was un-injured but I will never forget the sick look on his face as he turned around with that wreck still clutched in his hand.

 

If you persist in such folly, I surely hope you use an RV or BH. No Colt or clone or rifle can survive such "experimentation".

 

Just don't do it.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

It was a .38 round, it was not early in the morning, not cold, and I didn't hear steel ring from another berm. The shot sounded NORMAL, as I said, nobody yelled STOP and nothing was out of the ordinary until he couldn't chamber the next round.

 

Ok, in an attempt to make sure we have as much info on the table as possible, how about providing a little more info, if you have it.

 

1) Experienced cowboy shooter, or pretty new?

2) Experienced reloader, or pretty new?

3) Amount of crimp on the .38 loads, light, heavy?

4) Power level of the rounds - just an estimate - light loads or close to factory?

5) What slug?

6) What type of powder?

7) How fast was the shooter firing the rifle string? Full out or a leisurely pace?

8) If you know, what press was used to assemble the ammo? Was the reloader well experienced on this press?

9) Had the reloader noticed any primed but empty cases in the batch of ammo that had been loaded?

10) Were any primed but empty cases found on the ground after the event?

11) Were any split cases found on the the ground after the event? If so, fresh or spent primer?

12) Any possibility that immediately before the round that would not chamber, that the shooter had jacked out a round (a round that had not fired)?

13) How far was the slug in the barrel? Stuck right at the throat, or down the barrel a fraction of an inch?

14) What was the condition of the NOSE of the slug that was driven out? Clean, except for the marks of the range rod? Blackened? Nose deformed from impacting the base of a leading bullet?

 

Most likely, an indisputable "proof" of what happened will be hard to come by. Especially if this occurred more than a week or two ago, as the exact details quickly become a little fuzzy many times. And, most folks normally don't have extensive experience with what is a very abnormal situation.

 

It seems that it's a little hard piecing everything together when the initial question is missing many of the important details.

 

And, no, there is no implication in any of this discussion that others who have experienced a bullet stuck right at the throat are wrong, lying, careless, forgetful or have any other less than honorable characteristic. But if we can help in your particular situation at all, and maybe prevent a repeat performance or worse, isn't a little discussion worth it?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Oh, and in the OP's particular situation, the assumption that there is a .357 chamber in the rifle is a mistake. The Uberti 66 rifles are chambered as .38 special, not in .357. Only the 73s from Uberti are chambered in .357 mag.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I don't usually State things quite like this ,,, But the double bullet nonsence with rear bullet sticking in the Barrel ....

 

Give your head a shake !!!!!!!

 

The little gas that could sneak around the side of the rear bullet would be about 2,000 times less than the gas remaining behind the rear bullet and pushing it toward the muzzle !!!! And once the rear bullet reached the barrel IT WOULD STOP ALL GASSES FROM PUSHING ON THE FRONT BULLET !!! And it would stop !!!

 

Please don't try loading double bullets !!! That is just asking for trouble ...

 

I own and run a ballistic testing service ... When not fixing Guns or playing Cowboy ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Long Branch Louie]

Ok, in an attempt to make sure we have as much info on the table as possible, how about providing a little more info, if you have it.

 

1) Experienced cowboy shooter, or pretty new?

2) Experienced reloader, or pretty new?

3) Amount of crimp on the .38 loads, light, heavy?

4) Power level of the rounds - just an estimate - light loads or close to factory?

5) What slug?

6) What type of powder?

7) How fast was the shooter firing the rifle string? Full out or a leisurely pace?

8) If you know, what press was used to assemble the ammo? Was the reloader well experienced on this press?

9) Had the reloader noticed any primed but empty cases in the batch of ammo that had been loaded?

10) Were any primed but empty cases found on the ground after the event?

11) Were any split cases found on the the ground after the event? If so, fresh or spent primer?

12) Any possibility that immediately before the round that would not chamber, that the shooter had jacked out a round (a round that had not fired)?

13) How far was the slug in the barrel? Stuck right at the throat, or down the barrel a fraction of an inch?

14) What was the condition of the NOSE of the slug that was driven out? Clean, except for the marks of the range rod? Blackened? Nose deformed from impacting the base of a leading bullet?

 

Most likely, an indisputable "proof" of what happened will be hard to come by. Especially if this occurred more than a week or two ago, as the exact details quickly become a little fuzzy many times. And, most folks normally don't have extensive experience with what is a very abnormal situation.

 

It seems that it's a little hard piecing everything together when the initial question is missing many of the important details.

 

And, no, there is no implication in any of this discussion that others who have experienced a bullet stuck right at the throat is wrong, lying, careless, forgetful or has any other less than honorable characteristic. But if we can help in your particular situation at all, and maybe prevent a repeat performance or worse, isn't a little discussion worth it?

 

Good luck, GJ

I'll answer the ones i can. Very experienced shooter and reloader. No idea about amount of crimp or powder used, load was NOT light, I would say mid to upper range for cowboy loads. Shooter is very good with a rifle, smooth and fairly fast. Don't know anything about reloading process, no split case was found, but can't rule it out. No round was jacked out, string was normal, and bullet was not really deformed when i knocked it out, but I may have flattened it a little with my brass tipped rod. The bullet was deep enough that the next round round lacked about 3/16ths of an inch going all the way in, so not at the throat. Just a bit more and he would have been able to chamber another round. That's about all I can remember...

[Blastmaster]

The only "times" I've seen a stuck bullet in a rifle barrel is from a squib. Meaning the cartridge fired sounded and acted like there was no powder in the case and the primer was all that pushed the bullet out. I don't buy the split case either. I believe the cartridge and bullet would still perform for cowboy purposes providing the rifle was able to chamber the split case w/o collapsing the bullet when first enter the chamber. I've shot complete spit case cartridges out of revolvers w/o any notice of performaance loss,,,, as far as cowboy shooting is concerned.

 

I stopped two shooters last weekend with squib loads in their rifle and they were able to jack another round into the chamber with the squib bullet stuck in the barrel, but I got them stopped first. So at least their chamber or bullet size was big/small enough for the bullet to go down the barrel enough to allow another round to be chambered.

 

I think it was a squib load. I know you said it sounded like steel was hit and a normal sound... but it doesn't add up. I know of a reloader that did manage to load two bullets in a case by accident because of excess buildup of wax in the seating die. They caught the mistake before firing these rounds and scrapped those bullets.

 

I agree with JC about the gasses not being able to go around the back bullet to push the front bullet out first. Either the back bullet pushes the front bullet all the way through or both would be stuck in the barrel.

 

Good mistery

 

Blastmaster