AB962 DEFEATED

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

OK you CA bashers, heres your chance to eat some crow, AB 962 was just overturned in Court, yee ha!!!

hud

 

Right on Gunslinger!! (aka hud)

 

hey, I can tell a joke or two 'bout ole Cali cause I was born and raised there - surfer / motocross style..heck...even started SASS there

 

but I never will bash...ever

 

Got your back hud and all you other crazy Cali pards!

 

GG ~

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

This is good news Hud.

 

Wars are won one battle at a time, and every victory counts.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Stay the course.

[hud]

Oh yea, the CRPA, or California rifle and Pistol Association. They are the REAL deal out here. The NRA refers to them when asked about anything CA. Glad to have ya aboard. QDG, I will see you at the CA state championship, and Winchester Jack, anytime. Shouda seen that boy on my horse....he was scared to death, but hung on and didnt let out a peep

hud

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

From the CRaPA website: It's Twu, It's Twu!

 

Court Grants NRA/CRPA Foundation Motion, Invalidates Unconstitutional Ammunition Regulation Statute That Would Have Banned Mail order Ammo Sales & Required Ammo Sales Registration

 

1/18/11

 

In a dramatic ruling giving gun owners a win in an National Rifle Association/California Rifle and Pistol (CRPA) Foundation lawsuit, this morning Fresno Superior Court Judge Jeffrey Hamilton ruled that AB 962, the hotly contested statute that would have banned mail order ammunition sales and required all purchases of so called "handgun ammunition” to be registered, was unconstitutionally vague on its face. The Court enjoined enforcement of the statute, so mail order ammunition sales to California can continue unabated, and ammunition sales need not be registered under the law.

 

The lawsuit was prompted in part by the many objections and questions raised by confused police, ammunition purchasers, and sellers about what ammunition is covered by the new laws created by AB 962. In a highly unusual move that reflects growing law enforcement opposition to ineffective gun control laws, Tehama County Sheriff Clay Parker is the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit. Other plaintiffs include the CRPA Foundation, Herb Bauer Sporting Goods, ammunition shipper Able’s Ammo, collectible ammunition shipper RTG Sporting Collectibles, and individual Steven Stonecipher. Mendocino Sheriff Tom Allman also supported the lawsuit.

 

The ruling comes just days before the portion of the law that bans mail order sales of so called "handgun ammunition” was set to take effect on February 1, 2011. The lawsuit, Parker v. California is funded exclusively by the NRA and the CRPA Foundation. If it had gone into effect, AB 962 would have imposed burdensome and ill conceived restrictions on the sales of ammunition. AB 962 required that "handgun ammunition” be stored out of the reach of customers, that ammunition vendors collect ammunition sales registration information and thumb-prints from purchasers, and conduct transactions face-to-face for all deliveries and transfers of "handgun ammunition.” The lawsuit successfully sought the declaration from the Court that the statute was unconstitutional, and successfully sought the injunctive relief prohibiting law enforcement from enforcing the new laws.

 

The lawsuit alleged, and the Court agreed, that AB 962 is unconstitutionally vague on its face because it fails to provide sufficient legal notice of what ammunition cartridges are "principally for use in a handgun,” and thus is considered "handgun ammunition” that is regulated under AB 962. It is practically impossible, both for those subject to the law and for those who must enforce it, to determine whether any of the thousands of different types of ammunition cartridges that can be used in handguns are actually "principally for use in” or used more often in, a handgun. The proportional usage of any given cartridge is impossible to determine, and in any event changes with market demands. In fact, the legislature itself is well aware of the vagueness problem with AB 962's definition of "handgun ammunition" and tried to redefine it via AB 2358 in 2010. AB 2358 failed in the face of opposition from the NRA and CRPA based on the proposal’s many other nonsensical infringements on ammunition sales to law abiding citizens.

 

Constitutional vagueness challenges to state laws are extremely difficult to win, particularly in California firearms litigation so this success is particularly noteworthy. Even so, an appeal by the State is likely, but the Court’s Order enjoining enforcement of the law is effective – February 1, 2011 – immediately regardless.

 

Aw heck, I might even have to get my lifetime CRaPA membership now. ;^)'

[Subdeacon Joe]

Hey IROT and Hud,

Got a question. Is there one particular state organization that best helps you guys put up the fight? I think we all need to know which one it is so we can lend them our support. You two guys have been in the gun business and on the front line for a very long time. What can we do to realistically help? I would like to do more than just mouth the words. I want to get in the fight with you.

Thanks,

Long Hunter

 

I think the best organization for fighting the fight in CA is the California Rifle and Pistol Association. www.crpa.org

 

I think one of the best things that people outside the state can do for us is to counter some of the BS about the state. Let people know that, yes, many guns CAN be shipped into CA, same with most components. If you hear someone talking (or see them posting) about how we have let things go to hellinahandbasket, let them know that we haven't given up, but are here slugging it out and would appreciate it if they would hold their fire on us while we fight OUR fight so that maybe THEY won't have to do the same thing at their state, or maybe the federal level.

[San Fernando Slim, SASS #20521]

Let me add my congratulations for a job well done. I know about the fight that is needed. I have been in the fight back here since 1947 and I have nothing but the greatist respect for your fight and accomplishment. I have a dog in this fight too. I still have a lot of family in the San Fernando Valley.

[Ethan Cord]

Yep, One Nation, made up of 50 states (Obama says he has been to all 57) and a victory for one is a victory for all. Same goes with defeats. Thanks for everyone's effort and support.

 

Many of us have lived in other States and we live where we live for a variety of reasons. I am not a California Native, but I have lived the majority of my life here. I have called Texas, Kansas, Nebraska and Florida home at one time or another and have found things I like and dislike in each place.

 

Hacker, I geared up in a t-shirt and short pants to ride my Springer on Sunday because it was too warm for long pants! You ride much in January there in Colorado? If I want to visit the snow to ski it takes me a little over an hour to get there. A bit longer ride when I want to surf or walk on the beach. I just wish I had more time to do those things. We have to work year round here because the weather does not shut us down.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

At the risk of being singled out as the sole fly in the ointment of CA celebration it must pointed out that the law was overturned because it was too vague, NOT because the restrictions it placed were unconstitutional. There is a big difference. When the latter happens then you can really celebrate.

I estimate that this bill will make a comeback with more specific wording and more precise specification of what hand gun ammo is to be restricted.

The CA assembly tried to restrict more than they could specify. Unconstitutionally vague.

Next attempt will be more specific.

[hud]

ok thanks for your input. you can go back to pulling wings off of butterflies now

hud

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

At the risk of being singled out as the sole fly in the ointment of CA celebration it must pointed out that the law was overturned because it was too vague, NOT because the restrictions it placed were unconstitutional. There is a big difference. When the latter happens then you can really celebrate.

I estimate that this bill will make a comeback with more specific wording and more precise specification of what hand gun ammo is to be restricted.

The CA assembly tried to restrict more than they could specify. Unconstitutionally vague.

Next attempt will be more specific.

Ditto. Simply providing a list of handgun calibers would do the trick. The task could be delegated to the California Department of Justice (or whatever it is called) so new calibers could be regulated quickly. I support the NRA-ILA. Support strong organizations who protect our right to own and shoot firearms. Kudos the the NRA and the California Rifle and Pistol Organization. The battle will never end.

[Subdeacon Joe]

(Obama says he has been to all 57)

 

People still get that wrong. He said he had been to 57 with one left to go. Not counting Hawaii and Alaska, to which his handlers would not let him go. So, he was saying that there are 60 states. It must be because he cut his political teeth in the Daley Machine, where there is that 20% graveyard vote.

[Long Hunter SASS #20389L]

Appreciate the information! This Texan is the newest card carrying member of the CRPA. Also added an extra donation to help you guys keep up the fight.

 

It’ll be good to see you again at WR Hud.

Thanks,

Long Hunter

[Subdeacon Joe]

At the risk of being singled out as the sole fly in the ointment of CA celebration it must pointed out that the law was overturned because it was too vague, NOT because the restrictions it placed were unconstitutional. There is a big difference. When the latter happens then you can really celebrate.

I estimate that this bill will make a comeback with more specific wording and more precise specification of what hand gun ammo is to be restricted.

The CA assembly tried to restrict more than they could specify. Unconstitutionally vague.

Next attempt will be more specific.

 

 

Ditto. Simply providing a list of handgun calibers would do the trick. The task could be delegated to the California Department of Justice (or whatever it is called) so new calibers could be regulated quickly. I support the NRA-ILA. Support strong organizations who protect our right to own and shoot firearms. Kudos the the NRA and the California Rifle and Pistol Organization. The battle will never end.

 

Either way, it got shot down. And there is no way that they can define handgun ammo. Is .22 LR handgun or rifle? How about 9mm? There are a lot of carbines out there in 9mm. Contrary-wise, you could call 30-30 a handgun round because of the TC Contenders. And the 45-70 is a handgun round because of the Magnum Industries Biggest Finest Revolver (BFR), chambered in that round.

[Nichols Creek, SASS #77627]

Howdy Hud,

Congrats to all our pards in California for the victory!!

 

Any FFL that refuses a sale to a Californian because of a stupid state law is not helping our 2nd amendment fight. The state paperwork takes us about 3 minutes to prepare for a shipment. Our California friends need our help, not our criticism setting on some make believe lofty perch. What affects any citizen of the USA affects us all. Personally, I admire the gun right crowd in any of the left wing states for staying home and putting up a fight. Although it may be easier to run to a more comfortable state, they choose to stay home and fight. What’s not to admire? Good luck on your upcoming battles. We all need you.

Thank you,

Long Hunter

 

 

+1

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

Either way, it got shot down. And there is no way that they can define handgun ammo. Is .22 LR handgun or rifle? How about 9mm? There are a lot of carbines out there in 9mm. Contrary-wise, you could call 30-30 a handgun round because of the TC Contenders.

They could always ask the Wally*Mart clerk who asked me if the 12G ammo was for a rifle or pistol.

 

 

And the 45-70 is a handgun round because of the Magnum Industries Biggest Finest Revolver (BFR), chambered in that round.

Yer kiding, right? .45-70?

 

Anyway: Ring the Bell, Joe! I'm buyin'!!!

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Of course they can name all handgun ammo. They don't even need be that nice; they could say all ammunition.

But here is a quick (and rather incomplete) starting list that might appear later.

Ammunition controlled by this legislation includes the following; 357 mag, 38 special, 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp, 45gap, 380, 44 special, 44 magnum, 41 mag.

 

The new version might appear with a list and the caveat that says that CA DOj is charged with updating said list based upon ammo used in crimes.

Or it could say something like CA DOJ is charged with updating said list based upon ammo found in common handguns.

[Foard County News, SASS #77236]

Keep on fighting. It is far better to beat it at the legislative level than in the court. A win is a win no matter how ugly it is...

[Subdeacon Joe]

They could always ask the Wally*Mart clerk who asked me if the 12G ammo was for a rifle or pistol.

 

 

 

Yer kiding, right? .45-70?

 

Anyway: Ring the Bell, Joe! I'm buyin'!!!

 

You betchem! Take a look here: http://www.magnumresearch.com/Browse.asp?C...y=BFR:Revolvers

 

Hey, cool! Also 30-30, .22 Hornet, 460 Smith & Wesson, and several others.

[Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217]

I just wanted to say THANK YOU to the Calguns foundation, the California Rifle And Pistol Association and the National Rifle Association for the great fight they put up to get this B.S bill overturned. Also to all the great passionate gun owners we have in this state that helped with there pocketbooks. We got a long way to go but we just took a big step forward. For us California gun owners, the fight will never end!!!!

[Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217]

Woops!

[Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217]

Appreciate the information! This Texan is the newest card carrying member of the CRPA. Also added an extra donation to help you guys keep up the fight.

 

It’ll be good to see you again at WR Hud.

Thanks,

Long Hunter

THANK YOU LONG HUNTER!!! God Bless You Brother!!!

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Just something to keep in mind and I am not sure how this all works.

 

There are several (7-9 or so) law suits to be file on Feb 1st or there a bouts. I am not sure if today's ruling stops those proceeding or not. Or will they be heard due to being filed in Sacramento court. These other law suits cover different sections of AB962 than just the handgun calibers.

 

We'll see in Feb where it goes.

[hud]

Of course they can name all handgun ammo. They don't even need be that nice; they could say all ammunition.

But here is a quick (and rather incomplete) starting list that might appear later.

Ammunition controlled by this legislation includes the following; 357 mag, 38 special, 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp, 45gap, 380, 44 special, 44 magnum, 41 mag.

 

The new version might appear with a list and the caveat that says that CA DOj is charged with updating said list based upon ammo used in crimes.

Or it could say something like CA DOJ is charged with updating said list based upon ammo found in common handguns.

Wow, what kinda ax do you need to grind here? This post is for us that fight the good fight, and are happy we won one for a change. I'm sure Bisley Joe is lonely, go find him and then you can grouse together. BTW, you sound more like Boxer then Boxer does, you must be a HOOT at party's.

hud (dont go away mad, just go away)

[Subdeacon Joe]

Again a big Thank You to all of you who have voiced support for us here in CA. Real nice to see. And do keep in mind that we are doing our best to get the capons out of office.

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

Of course they can name all handgun ammo. They don't even need be that nice; they could say all ammunition.

But here is a quick (and rather incomplete) starting list that might appear later.

Ammunition controlled by this legislation includes the following; 357 mag, 38 special, 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp, 45gap, 380, 44 special, 44 magnum, 41 mag.

 

The new version might appear with a list and the caveat that says that CA DOj is charged with updating said list based upon ammo used in crimes.

Or it could say something like CA DOJ is charged with updating said list based upon ammo found in common handguns.

Hacker,

Since I'm sure you don't follow CA politics too closely, this bill was introduce SIX TIMES in the CA Legislature before it ever got out of commitee. When it finally passed, our idiot RINO Governator signed it as a political payback to the author (something about Latio votes in certain districts). Our current Governor may be a leftist looney, but he is tight-fisted when it comes to spending $$ the state doesn't have. There was no budget to enforce this law before today and there will still be no budget to enforce a second bill. Also, Gov. Brown while not a card-carrying NRA supporter, wrote a favorable brief in the Chicago 2nd Amendment case. So, he is at least not our enemy on guns. My bet is he wouldn't sign another bill like this one if it hits his desk.....constitutionally vague or not.

 

My appologies Mr. Harris if I strayed over the line into politics.

 

And Long Hunter.....THAK YOU for your support. The CA Rifle and Pistol Assoc. is the best source for CA politics and pending legislation. Others should follow your lead, sir.

[Dakota Brown]

This victory is for all of us! This law being overturned here in California means that it will not be duplicated in another state. Although there's no telling what else they will attempt to do!

 

DB

[Cowboy Junky]

I ain't turnin' the stove on yet...but I'm happy for ya'. One small step for man...one small step for mankind.

[Ethan Cord]

We here in California know we live in a liberal voting state. We know the libs want to take our guns, our money and as many of our rights as possible. We know this is a lifelong battle. Guess what else we know. They want to do the same thing to you! The power will continue to shift as those folks who get "free stuff" (i.e. your tax dollars) from the govenrment for doing nothing keep multiplying faster than folks who work for a living. When the Dream Act passes you will have 20 or 30 million new liberals voting to take all of your guns and more of your money.

 

Many of you Californians probably remember that we had a goofy law in the past that made you provide ID and sign for Handgun Ammo. You had to be 21 years old to buy it. At 19 I bought myself a Ruger 10-22 ($62.50) from JC Penny and later that year a Glenfield (Marlin) 30-30. I had to have my Mom buy the ammo for my rifles because it could also fit in a handgun.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

At the risk of being singled out as the sole fly in the ointment of CA celebration it must pointed out that the law was overturned because it was too vague, NOT because the restrictions it placed were unconstitutional. There is a big difference. When the latter happens then you can really celebrate.

I estimate that this bill will make a comeback with more specific wording and more precise specification of what hand gun ammo is to be restricted.

The CA assembly tried to restrict more than they could specify. Unconstitutionally vague.

Next attempt will be more specific.

 

Well...ya ain't gonna poop my party for my fellow Californians. Like Cowboy Junky said above: "One small step for man...one small step for mankind"

 

G (who's always lookin' to celebrate somethin') G ~

[Subdeacon Joe]

We here in California know we live in a liberal voting state. We know the libs want to take our guns, our money and as many of our rights as possible. We know this is a lifelong battle. Guess what else we know. They want to do the same thing to you! The power will continue to shift as those folks who get "free stuff" (i.e. your tax dollars) from the govenrment for doing nothing keep multiplying faster than folks who work for a living. When the Dream Act passes you will have 20 or 30 million new liberals voting to take all of your guns and more of your money.

 

Many of you Californians probably remember that we had a goofy law in the past that made you provide ID and sign for Handgun Ammo. You had to be 21 years old to buy it. At 19 I bought myself a Ruger 10-22 ($62.50) from JC Penny and later that year a Glenfield (Marlin) 30-30. I had to have my Mom buy the ammo for my rifles because it could also fit in a handgun.

 

Well said, sir. Well said. And for those of you inclined to write things like:

 

Aint no crow to eat. california voters voted in a bunch of libs/dems that want to take away gun rights.

So one thing has been overturned.

How many rounds can you have in your magazine it could hold 12 but you can only have 10.

You can't buy any gun you want. Can you. You can't buy from any FFL. Only those that CA DOJ approves.

2nd ammendment is not in full effect in CA.

 

Well, gee, Let's substitute 'America' for 'California' so we get "American voters voted in a bunch of libs/dems that want to take away gun rights...The 2nd Amendment is not in full effect in the USA." The Oval Office and the Senate still belong to the Dems/libs, and the Lower House is held by nominal conservatives by a slim margin - all it takes is 25 to swing a vote the other way. Until every state has VT style gun laws,

2nd ammendment is not in full effect

.

 

Sorry for the rant. The more I thought about that post the more it ate at me. A little bit of kidding now and then is fine, and expected. But the vitriol is uncalled for. .

[Rye Miles #13621]

Congrats to Cal. shooters. Great victory on a really bad law.

Looks like my semi-retirement plans are to live out my life in sunny Cal. with my sons. 2 years and I can get my full SS and I can get outta this place!!!!

Even though I hate living in the Cleveland area it doesn't stop me from writing letters to the editor and pushing for easier gun laws for all my pards here. Ya gotta fight where yer at. Go Cal. pards!!

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Thanks Long Hunter. Real stand-up Cowboy.

 

Fillmore (Who tried to teach his children right and now I've got grandchildren. We will get California back)

[Flint 976]

Actually, there are plenty of other reasons to leave California besides gun laws. Overcrowded cities, freeways, taxes, home prices, air pollution, cost of living in general.....

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Actually, there are plenty of other reasons to leave California besides gun laws. Overcrowded cities, freeways, taxes, home prices, air pollution, cost of living in general.....

There aren't any overcrowded cities, freeways, or air polution in Amador and several other counties!

 

You could be talking about cities in several states. I hear NV has the same sales tax and TX has high property taxes...

 

Thank you to everyone who has made supportive comments about California.

 

BTW, Doc Shapiro, myself, and others have attended a committee meeting. What a fiasco. News and cameras came in for someone's photo op and there was no time for us.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo