Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Since all of us that write matches - setup steel and ALSO try to win are now considered cheats because we have "prior knowledge" of the scenario, steel placement/ distances and sequences...I got to thinking - how exactly would one put on a match without ANY prior knowledge? Hmmm. Lets see - a big shoot is usually 12 stages - 10-10-4, so that could mean 24 (or more) targets per stage = 288 (or more) pieces of steel to be set. Every shooter in the match could randomly set (depending on the number of shooters) 1-3 pieces of steel wherever they wished. Ok - that handles the steel placement. What about round counts? The first posse at each stage could pick numbers from a hat, 1-10. Announce "Shotgun" and then draw a number from the hat. Do the same for rifle and pistol(s) - sure would eliminate that same old - same old of 10-10-4 round counts. Write the round count on a chalkboard for the next posse. Once the round count was established - someone would have to make up a shooting sequence for each type of gun (using a different posse member for each firearm would be best to avoid the appearance of impropriety). Three more posse members could decide the shooting positions for each type of gun and yet another posse member would decide firearm order. Sequences - shooting positions and gun order would also be written on the chalkboard for the following posse' Shooter order would be determined by dice throw to ensure that no one was allowed to deliberately lag behind to gain an edge. The shooter has to operate their own timer as the TO gains too large of an advantage by running through the stage with multiple shooters. Every person on the posse will spot for every other shooter to maintain equal access to the information. Screens will be set up between bays to avoid any shooter getting advance knowledge about the next stage. Did I miss anything? Maybe it would be easier to have all matches setup by folks who don't care about putting on a good shoot and have no interest in winning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Fuller Bullspit Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 The hyperbole is piquant yet understated, the procedures pithy and flawless! Creeker's Random Shoot Generator is born! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Creeker; I don't like yer shoot none ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Too ramdom ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Don't know how many Truck loads of ammo I will need !!!! So I think You must Be "Cheating" !!!! Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. P. Cobb Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 maybee some fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellfire # 35333L Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Or, a neighboring club could come in to set up your monthly match, and then the next week you would go set up their match. Thats easier to do. Now you have no prior knowledge unless you belong to both clubs, but then you would have to declare which club you belong to, and you would have to quit the other one...... Hellfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Hellfire ; Good Idea ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Except fer da part bout quiting a club ,,,,,,,, How do Ya deside which one ???? Merry Christmas ta All !!! Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I think a cadre of non-shooters who were nothing but shoot generating folks could simply be employed to come up with scenarios and set up the match (think caterers). Heck, 6 guys per area, working every weeked, running around to clubs. Heck fire, we'd whip the recession by putting folks to work and insure fairness in the bargain. Memo, add $25 per shooter per day of shooting to match fees, not counting the rent-a-cops to watch the range to insure nobody peeks. After all, with a new pickup, maybe $100,000/week, and dates with waitresses as a prizes every month, somebody might cheat to gain advantage..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EE Taft Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Sounds to me like the writer of the editorial is saying the hard workin' folks that set up a match should not be allowed to shoot that match. If that became the rule, I would not be setting up or MDing anymore matches. I love doing so for the sake of giving back to my club and doing my fair share. Not to get an advantage. ~EE (Who shoots too slow anyway) Taft~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Did I miss anything? Yeah, you missed a money-making opportunity for SASS. They already sell software for scoring. How about they require all clubs to buy the ... SASSTM Random Stage Generator! Enter your steel inventory, berm arrangement, etc. You just push the "Go" button after the safety meeting and then all the shooters haul steel out and place it according to a grid map. Print the stages and you're set... a completely generic, cheat-free match. JJ p.s. I'll be watching and when I see this software in use, I'll be expecting a royalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Fuller Bullspit Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Yeah, you missed a money-making opportunity for SASS. They already sell software for scoring. How about they require all clubs to buy the ... SASSTM Random Stage Generator! Enter your steel inventory, berm arrangement, etc. You just push the "Go" button after the safety meeting and then all the shooters haul steel out and place it according to a grid map. Print the stages and you're set... a completely generic, cheat-free match. JJ p.s. I'll be watching and when I see this software in use, I'll be expecting a royalty. Perfect! And for an extra fee the Generator could supply a randomly chosen starting line from a data base of over 100 great movie quotes! Creeker could be the next member of the wild bunch if he hurries up and patents this idea and then negotiates well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I think Tex ought to lay off such trivia and go do something important like maybe force all major league baseball parks to have fields the same size and shape, all the same compass orientation, etc. When he gets that done, come mess with SASS some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Shucks...with my age...if'n I had Alzheimer's I'd have a better memory then what I've got now...or my name ain't Datthew Muncan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semi Conductor, SASS #51020 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Why don't you guys stop whining about being called cheaters - it’s getting old! If you honestly don’t feel you’ve taken unfair advantage by setting up a match then have the self confidence to realize that Tex was talking about someone else and not YOU and quit your bitchin! I believe those that continue to rail about being categorized as a cheater just because they organized a match “doth protest too much!” If Tex editorial really makes a few folks feel that uncomfortable, well maybe there's a reason. Semi Conductor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Ruffian, SASS #70225 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Every shoot I have attended you could show up early and look at the stages, so I don’t see a real advantage. A person with any sense at all should be able to look at a stage and figure out how to effectively run it. I appreciate those who give their time to set up stages and if anybody should be shooting the steel its them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 The article was an eye opener and some of the replies on the wire even more so. There is a group that thinks it is acceptable to know stage design and to be able to set them up months ahead of all others shoot them over and over again than shoot the match, place higher than many others and still think it is not cheating because they were the MD or they helped put the match on . T J B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Why not have shooters in some other action discipline like IDPA or IPSC set up your shoot and you set up theirs. Then we can spread this insanity to other disciplines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin O Lawman,SASS#7672 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Why don't you guys stop whining about being called cheaters - it’s getting old! If you honestly don’t feel you’ve taken unfair advantage by setting up a match then have the self confidence to realize that Tex was talking about someone else and not YOU and quit your bitchin! I believe those that continue to rail about being categorized as a cheater just because they organized a match “doth protest too much!” If Tex editorial really makes a few folks feel that uncomfortable, well maybe there's a reason. Semi Conductor Amen!!!!! Stop beating the horse it's already Dead and starting to stink!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 "End of Trail", the SASS World Championship. It's there a pre match match the week before open to anyone who wants to shoot early? --------------------------- Most major matches hand out shooter handbooks to all the competitors. Why not publish the stages a month or two before the match scheduled shooting date? Then anyone who wants to practice can setup the stages at their home range and practice all they want. -------------------------- Now what about props and terrain? Those who shoot monthly at the range where the major match is going to be put on will have the advantage of knowing the props and where to best shoot from. -------------------------- The confusion is brought about by insinuating some one is a cheater that practices and practices and knows the rules and plays right up to the edge of the line without crossing over. These people are not cheaters. They are gamers. And gamers and cheaters are far from being the same things. A shooter who actually goes beyond the rules over and over usually doesn't last long in this sport. Or any other sport for that matter. Wanting to be the best you can within the rules is not cheating. And why would someone continually step past the rules with everyone watching to get their name called out or for a $15 prize? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherokee Gambler, SASS # 33915 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Why don't you guys stop whining about being called cheaters - it’s getting old! If you honestly don’t feel you’ve taken unfair advantage by setting up a match then have the self confidence to realize that Tex was talking about someone else and not YOU and quit your bitchin! I believe those that continue to rail about being categorized as a cheater just because they organized a match “doth protest too much!” If Tex editorial really makes a few folks feel that uncomfortable, well maybe there's a reason. Semi Conductor I felt the same way about the cone of safety, it caused a lot of trouble on the Wire. However, I am really tired of the way Tex gets this Wire all riled up about every other month. After some of his other editorials, I can't fault people for feeling they were being attacked. Tex does entirely too much of that. I still say he does this as a sounding board for the WB. If I am right it is a poor way of conducting polls. By the way, in this case I don't think Tex was accusing all match directors of cheating. I think he was only refering of the ones that set up a match and then shoot it once or multiple times. Anyone capable of winning a match and setting one up can tell if there are safety problem from looking. Don't have to shoot it. Let us consider this thread in the vein it was considered. A joke and let the hard feelings go. Regards, Cherokee Gambler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 The article was an eye opener and some of the replies on the wire even more so. There is a group that thinks it is acceptable to know stage design and to be able to set them up months ahead of all others shoot them over and over again than shoot the match, place higher than many others and still think it is not cheating because they were the MD or they helped put the match on . T J B Now Jack, You are stirring again. I did not see that in any posts. Some folks, although they did not like Tex's editorial, even pointed out that shooting a stage over and over ahead of time was wrong. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Now Jack, You are stirring again. I did not see that in any posts. Some folks, although they did not like Tex's editorial, even pointed out that shooting a stage over and over ahead of time was wrong. Regards, Allie Mo Allie, Merry Christmas to you and your family But please take the time to re read some of the posts. But ,it seems the moderators made them all go away. T J B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Allie, Merry Christmas to you and your family But please take the time to re read some of the posts. T J B Merry Christmas back at ya! Please link to the posts. I've read the threads and did not see what you mentioned. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 "End of Trail", the SASS World Championship. It's there a pre match match the week before open to anyone who wants to shoot early? --------------------------- Most major matches hand out shooter handbooks to all the competitors. Why not publish the stages a month or two before the match scheduled shooting date? Then anyone who wants to practice can setup the stages at their home range and practice all they want. -------------------------- Now what about props and terrain? Those who shoot monthly at the range where the major match is going to be put on will have the advantage of knowing the props and where to best shoot from. -------------------------- The confusion is brought about by insinuating some one is a cheater that practices and practices and knows the rules and plays right up to the edge of the line without crossing over. These people are not cheaters. They are gamers. And gamers and cheaters are far from being the same things. A shooter who actually goes beyond the rules over and over usually doesn't last long in this sport. Or any other sport for that matter. Wanting to be the best you can within the rules is not cheating. And why would someone continually step past the rules with everyone watching to get their name called out or for a $15 prize? Exellent points! The Wild Bunch doesn't have any trouble taking money for warm up matches. If there is any match that should not have warm up stages its the world championship. I don't care if they are not the same scenerios. You are still shooting almost identicle props and target array. Of course this is the world according to TEX. A few of us with families and jobs can't afford to take that much time off for one match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Merry Christmas back at ya! Please link to the posts. I've read the threads and did not see what you mentioned. Regards, Allie Mo You are being very coy , You know those posts have now gone into cyber space thanks to the powers in charge. But do have a very Merry Holiday season, and fear not there will be much more debate over other silly issues. BEST WISHES T J B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smuteye John SASS#24774 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Since all of us that write matches - setup steel and ALSO try to win are now considered cheats because we have "prior knowledge" of the scenario, steel placement/ distances and sequences...I got to thinking - how exactly would one put on a match without ANY prior knowledge? Hmmm. Lets see - a big shoot is usually 12 stages - 10-10-4, so that could mean 24 (or more) targets per stage = 288 (or more) pieces of steel to be set. Every shooter in the match could randomly set (depending on the number of shooters) 1-3 pieces of steel wherever they wished. Ok - that handles the steel placement. What about round counts? The first posse at each stage could pick numbers from a hat, 1-10. Announce "Shotgun" and then draw a number from the hat. Do the same for rifle and pistol(s) - sure would eliminate that same old - same old of 10-10-4 round counts. Write the round count on a chalkboard for the next posse. Once the round count was established - someone would have to make up a shooting sequence for each type of gun (using a different posse member for each firearm would be best to avoid the appearance of impropriety). Three more posse members could decide the shooting positions for each type of gun and yet another posse member would decide firearm order. Sequences - shooting positions and gun order would also be written on the chalkboard for the following posse' Shooter order would be determined by dice throw to ensure that no one was allowed to deliberately lag behind to gain an edge. The shooter has to operate their own timer as the TO gains too large of an advantage by running through the stage with multiple shooters. Every person on the posse will spot for every other shooter to maintain equal access to the information. Screens will be set up between bays to avoid any shooter getting advance knowledge about the next stage. Did I miss anything? Maybe it would be easier to have all matches setup by folks who don't care about putting on a good shoot and have no interest in winning? I can't speak for everybody, but when I've help set up all I'm worried about is gettin' the steel in place. The last thing I'm lookin' at is how to shoot the stage. I've never seen anybody stand there and say, "OK, these 3 pistol plates are first and you shoot them from here using a So and So Sweep, then you grab your rifle and shoot those targets right to left with a Such and Such Sweep," while we are setting up the targets. All I've ever been told is where to put the targets and how many we need to set out. You can guess approximate shooting positions from the angle the targets are set at but shooting order is gonna be pure speculation. Sounds like "much to do about nothin' " to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 For our monthly matches our club posts (http://riosaladocowboys.com/) the stages on the club web site a couple of weeks before the match for any attendee to prepare any way he or she wants. We started doing this for our customers a few months ago and folks really seem to like it. Helps them bring the right amount of ammo and be prepared anyway they want. Haven't heard of anyone shooting the stages before hand to win the small awards we make at the monthly matches. I had been using one of the bays of set steel for our new shooters orientation session, but we normally just shoot 5-5-2 stages we make up on the spot for the set steel-so the new shooters can shoot several times before dark. If state level matches and above started doing this, I think it would eliminate any issues folks might have with prior stage knowledge because as soon as the stages were developed everyone would see em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. P. Cobb Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Why don't you guys stop whining about being called cheaters - it’s getting old! If you honestly don’t feel you’ve taken unfair advantage by setting up a match then have the self confidence to realize that Tex was talking about someone else and not YOU and quit your bitchin! I believe those that continue to rail about being categorized as a cheater just because they organized a match “doth protest too much!” If Tex editorial really makes a few folks feel that uncomfortable, well maybe there's a reason. Semi Conductor Amen!!!!! Stop beating the horse it's already Dead and starting to stink!!!!!!!!! ______________________________________ Amen II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Why don't you guys stop whining about being called cheaters - it’s getting old! If you honestly don’t feel you’ve taken unfair advantage by setting up a match then have the self confidence to realize that Tex was talking about someone else and not YOU and quit your bitchin! I believe those that continue to rail about being categorized as a cheater just because they organized a match “doth protest too much!” If Tex editorial really makes a few folks feel that uncomfortable, well maybe there's a reason. Semi Conductor Amen!!!!! Stop beating the horse it's already Dead and starting to stink!!!!!!!!! ______________________________________ Amen II Why don't you quit whining about whiners? Tex was 180 degrees off base! He has made some very major mistakes with his editorials that have truly upset customers. Just look at the decline in attendance at EOT to see the impact of some of his mistakes. It won't be a dead horse until Tex says he was just kidding or something else. This is shaping up just like his editorials on power factor did a couple of years ago. This time he upset the folks that are providing all the free labor for his enterprise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semi Conductor, SASS #51020 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 GCK How in the world can you blame declining attendance at EOTs on Tex’s editorials in light of the economy? Seriously! I stand behind the contention that if the editorial struck a nerve then there's a reason. Furthermore it is an editorial for heaven sake – not an edict! Editors write opinions – happens all the time. If his editorial upset you that much then vote with your feet and not your keyboard. Semi Conductor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 GCKHow in the world can you blame declining attendance at EOTs on Tex’s editorials in light of the economy? Seriously! I stand behind the contention that if the editorial struck a nerve then there's a reason. Furthermore it is an editorial for heaven sake – not an edict! Editors write opinions – happens all the time. If his editorial upset you that much then vote with your feet and not your keyboard. Semi Conductor Other major matches haven't declined like EOT, look at WR and attendance at most of the Regionals and State Championships, so the economy has an impact but not as great as the EOT attendance decline. EOT peaked at almost 1000 shooters as I recall then plummeted to just over half that number of shooters this year. A couple of years ago, EOT got a ton of last minute cancellations mostly over Tex's statements on power factor and the uncertainty of the whole issue for the upcoming EOT. Looks like quite a few folks are voting with their feet. The editorial did strike a nerve, Tex essentially accused folks that do the hard work, set up and run matches of cheating since they are familiar with the stages before the match. Those folks have a right to be upset with Tex! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Ruffian, SASS #70225 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 GCKHow in the world can you blame declining attendance at EOTs on Tex’s editorials in light of the economy? Seriously! I stand behind the contention that if the editorial struck a nerve then there's a reason. Furthermore it is an editorial for heaven sake – not an edict! Editors write opinions – happens all the time. If his editorial upset you that much then vote with your feet and not your keyboard. Semi Conductor It probably struck a nerve because it was another excuse to why I lost. It could never be that somebody is better or works harder to get that way. I have never been to a firing line not knowing were the target were or how to shoot them. They read the scenario and I get to see the targets before I loaded my guns so I had prior knowledge before I shot the stage. If you cant look at a stage and determine what might be in the way and how to get around it you don’t need to be shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 GCKHow in the world can you blame declining attendance at EOTs on Tex's editorials in light of the economy? Seriously! I stand behind the contention that if the editorial struck a nerve then there's a reason. Furthermore it is an editorial for heaven sake – not an edict! Editors write opinions – happens all the time. If his editorial upset you that much then vote with your feet and not your keyboard. Semi Conductor You wouldn't be insinuating that only cheaters would really be upset would you? That would be like someone saying that only people that are jerks would get upset by being called a jerk. Usually it's just the opposite. ....at least that's been my experience Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Well Pards, If you've been an active participant in CAS for several years, then you've shot many of the same target orders over and over again. Match performanace on any given day is more a matter of equipment funtioning and mental focus than having exact knowledge of the scenarios. Having duties to perform on match days and being at the range & able to see the setups early in the morning are no advantage. My best shooting has been at matches where I have no responsibilities other than show up & shoot the match. If you talk to the pards who write scenarios and setup stages, I guarantee they have all earned misses and procedurals on their own scenarios. I respect a man who has a conflict with an individual and speaks directly to him. I do not appreciate management who will chastise the whole group over an issue that is directed at only a few as this seems contrary to the "Cowboy Way". Hasta Luego, Keystone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semi Conductor, SASS #51020 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Well Pards, If you've been an active participant in CAS for several years, then you've shot many of the same target orders over and over again. Match performanace on any given day is more a matter of equipment funtioning and mental focus than having exact knowledge of the scenarios. Having duties to perform on match days and being at the range & able to see the setups early in the morning are no advantage. My best shooting has been at matches where I have no responsibilities other than show up & shoot the match. If you talk to the pards who write scenarios and setup stages, I guarantee they have all earned misses and procedurals on their own scenarios. I respect a man who has a conflict with an individual and speaks directly to him. I do not appreciate management who will chastise the whole group over an issue that is directed at only a few as this seems contrary to the "Cowboy Way". Hasta Luego, Keystone Please go back and read Tex's editorial. He did not say ALL Match Directors and other set up folks are taking advantage. Talk about painting someone with a broad brush! I can not understand why some are taking offence. The good news is that the majority of Match Directors are not complaining via the wire, because they know they have done nothing wrong. If they won it was because they were better than the other participants, period! Blaming Tex for low EOT attendance and driving shooters away via his editorials is ridiculous. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him held accountable for global warming on this wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Please go back and read Tex's editorial. He did not say ALL Match Directors and other set up folks are taking advantage. Talk about painting someone with a broad brush! I can not understand why some are taking offence. The good news is that the majority of Match Directors are not complaining via the wire, because they know they have done nothing wrong. If they won it was because they were better than the other participants, period! Blaming Tex for low EOT attendance and driving shooters away via his editorials is ridiculous. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him held accountable for global warming on this wire. I did read the article. In addition to the actions we all agree are unfair. ie shotting the stages for practice multiple times, he said ANY prior knowledge was cheating. That is what stirred the wire. He could easily have parsed his words, recognized that the "problem" is not widespread, or presented it as a heads-up for MDs. He did none of the above, hence the rancor. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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