Another load question - 38 spl 231, Clays, or....

[paradiddle]

I've google searched and seemed to have read a lot about these two powders.  Wanted to start a fresh thread for any recommendations.

 

Loaded up 50 rounds of 38 with W231.  had a lot of green, unburned powder from the pistols (5.5" colt clone), none I could see in rifle (18bbl 73).  No squibs, soft shooting, just get nervous with unburned powder as I've never experienced that before.

 

125 RNFP - Bear Creek bullet

3.8 - gr W231

1.50 OAL

Pretty heavy crimp

Lee Turret press (if that matters)

 

I love W231 in my 9mm IPSC loads which is why I have 10 pounds of it right now.

 

I have a pretty good stash of Clays also.

 

I'm seeing some loads on here in between 2.8 and 3.2 grain at a 1.50 OAL for Clays.

 

I can certainly try and find another powder.  I read a lot about Unique and Red Dot.

 

What do you pards say?  I live in So Cal but travel to Vegas and Phoenix a lot for work if that matters on Powder availability.

 

Thanks,

Jeff

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

231 will be too slow a powder for light .38 special.  Been tried by many.

 

2.8 grains of Clays or Clay Dot will work, but don't count on being able to buy any for QUITE a while.   You could load until you run out, though.

 

TiteGroup (also named High Gun) is often available now and will make good loads for that cartridge and bullet. 

 

good luck, GJ

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Not enough powder for proper combustion. I had that problem early in my reloading career. I now use 4.3 grains of 231 with the same bullet & case. Problem went away. 
 

9mm is a much smaller case, so combustion is better. 

[paradiddle]

Thanks.  That is what I figured.  Oddly enough 4.3 is my load under a 147 gr jacketed HP for my 9mm.  Powder puff and accurate as heck plus it runs my CZ all day.

 

I tried Titegroup on 45 and didn't like the snap, but might try again with 38.

 

I'll roll some with Clays and see if I can tell the recoil between more 231 and the Clays.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yeah, 4.3 grains of 231 should make about 825 FPS.  Not really a light load.

 

2.8 grains of Clays in a revolver will be down around 650 FPS.  You WILL notice it's softer and cleaner.

 

GJ

[El Chapo]

My load is 2.7 of Clays with the 125, and yes it's plenty soft.  I have heard there are people loading even lighter, but I don't see the point.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Try 4.0gn 231 and a magnum primer.

Keep the firm roll-crimp. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I have used Clays since I started in 2005 and have no intention of changing to anything else unless I absolutely have to. I load 3.0gr. Clays behind a 125gr. TCFP, I used a RNFP when I was shooting a Marlin but changed to the truncated flat point when I changed to a 1873. I use the same load in revolvers and rifle.

 

Randy

[Wild Eagle]

Like everyone else has said, Clays will be a much better powder for the cowboy loads.  I also tried HP-38/W231 for cowboy loads but couldn't get it to burn clean at the low pressures we use.  I do like it for 9MM, 40, and 45acp though.  

 

Since Clay's has not been available for some time, like 3 years, and no one knows when it may be made again, you may want to save it for something else.  If not, load up what you have, it will work well for our game.  Some other powders that work well for low pressure cowboy 38s are in no particular order are;

 

TiteGroup

Bullseye

Red Dot

Clean Shot 

 

I use 3.2 grains of all of these with either 105 or 125 grain bullets at 1.500 OAL in 38 special brass.

[Go West]

I wouldn't be concerned with unburnt powder unless taken to excess. Do they work? Is it affected by temperature? Are they inconsistent (bang, poof)?

[Blackwater 53393]

If you bump your 3.8gr 231 load up a half grain to 4.3, it cleans up nicely and it’s only a slightly noticeable difference in felt recoil!

[paradiddle]

Thank you Ladies and Gents - lots of great stuff on this board.

 

Jeff

[Texas Jack Black]

 Or you could make your own Trail Boss I just drill a tiny hole in the center of a flake of Unique. I get about 3 done a day real slow process.😉

[Eyesa Horg]

2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Or you could make your own Trail Boss I just drill a tiny hole in the center of a flake of Unique. I get about 3 done a day real slow process.😉

Use something stiff like a piece of piano wire in a pin vise for a punch. Then you can use the TB holes for loading as well.

[watab kid]

seeing some loads on here in between 2.8 and 3.2 grain at a 1.50 OAL for Clay/red dot 

 

this is what im using as thats the powders i have 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Waterloo at one time was shooting 2.5gr Clays with magnum primer and 125gr bullet.  I tried some like that and they were just too wimpy for me. 

[Bison Bud]

From my personal experience, the true beauty of using Clays was how cleanly it burned, especially with light loads.  I know of no other propellant that does this better.  However, I have used all I had and it apparently isn't in production or at least for sale at this time, so I have worked up loads with Clay Dot that seem to serve me well, although not quite as clean.  As for 231, it's a fine pistol load propellant that measures well, but it doesn't make lighter loads without running into the unburned powder situation that has been already mentioned.  I too use it almost exclusively for my 9mm loads and it also performs well in my .38 Special rounds as long as I load them hot enough to burn all the powder.  As for Titegroup, it too works well and will burn at lighter load levels.  I like it in my .357 rifle rounds primarily because it is more consistent and less position sensitive with larger spaces left inside the cases.  Although it also works well in the handgun loads, it does have a very sharp report and recoil impulse compared to many other propellants, so it's not my favorite in the handgun loads.  Frankly, if you have some Clays on hand, I don't think you will find a better propellant for the type of lighter target loads we use, but you have to weigh the fact that you may not be able to replace what you use for a good long while.  Personally, I'd use it till it's gone and hope it comes back on the market soon.  Good luck and good shooting to all.  

[Blackwater 53393]

I tried Clays several years ago at a state level match. I was shooting Solo 1000, but had been on the road for several weeks and didn’t have time to reload at home.  
 

Another shooter was kind enough to let me use his press. I had all the components, except for powder, and he had Clays on hand.  I ran up enough rounds to complete the match with what was supposed to be a popular load, (I don’t recall the numbers) and headed for the match.

 

On the first stage, I had a squib on my second pistol. At the unloading table, the cowboy that loaned me his reloading gear and offered the powder told me that I should thump the box of cartridges on the loading table a couple of times with the base ends down. “It’s position sensitive,” he said.

 

That worked for the rest of the day, but the next day it rained and turned much colder.  I discovered then that Clays can be temperature sensitive when lightly loaded too!!

 

To say that I didn’t have a very good match is being kind. Once burned, twice shy.  I’m using up an 8# jug of International Clays that I inherited and it works good in my shotgun shells, so far.

 

I doubt I’d use Clays in my pistol/rifle cartridges again.  I just picked up a jug of Clean Shot to try and I still have about six pounds of Solo 1000 left from a purchase I made several years ago.  I’d buy it, (Solo) again in a heartbeat if I could find any at a reasonable price. ‘Til then, I’ll use what I have and work up a load for the Clean Shot.

 

I can always load up some FFFg and slip over to the Dark Side.  I’m pretty comfortable there when the mood strikes.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I shot about 500 .38's with 2.8gr of Clays and 125gr bullet.  It shot fine and I would have continued but I was hand dipping the powder since my Lee powder measure wasn't consistent with light loads of fluffy powder, plus wanting to save the Clays for other stuff.  In 44 Spcl with 180gr and 200gr bullets I use the Hodgdon minimum, and .45 Colt with 200 gr bullet use Hodgdon minimum.  All burn clean, clean brass that drops out of the cylinders, and I've never noticed any position sensitivity in any of them.  Now, I know about Clays light loads being sensitive to cold weather, but I just don't shoot that much in the cold.  It's more the opposite around here.  Now that I have switched to magnum primers for all my .38's, I would be less worried about cold weather for any powder.  BTW I have now switched to Clay-Dot with same data in the .44s and .45s, still good.

[Ripsaw]

700x is a perfect substitute for Clay's in 38spl cowboy loads. Same load, same results. I run 2.9g under 105, 125 and for KDs, 140 or 158g bullets.

[watab kid]

ve used a lot of 700x over the years as a direct sub for clays 

[paradiddle]

Thanks guys.  I loaded up a few different "samples" (more 231, a Titegroup load, and two Clay's  and will go shoot them.  Is 700x a better Clays sub then Clay Dot?

 

Jeff

[Eyesa Horg]

Moons ago I shot bullseye with a Ruger GP100 357. I loaded 38s with 2.9gr of 231 and it was the most accurate and cleanest for me! I also tried Bullseye and Unique, they were very dirty for light loads. Didn't have a Chrono then, so no idea how they performed other than clean and accurate!

[Guns Goforth]

I use 2.4 231 and 125gn bullet in 38 short colt brass, they have it now in stock at starline. Burns well in smaller case like 9mm.

 

https://www.starlinebrass.com/38-short-colt-brass

 

obviously for pistol only, load to spec for rifle in regular 38 brass.

Edited September 3 by Guns Goforth

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Really? Thumping a box of ammo down to settle the powder  at the base. Then loading revolvers and holstering them muzzle down, loading rifle and usually laying them on a table.  The powders going to be at the base when you shoot? I've loaded lots of Clays in 38 special, 44 special,  9mm and 45acp. No issues. Not minimum loads and bullet weights though.