Black Powder Inquiry

[Pat Riot]

I am putting together a Traditions .50 cal percussion Kentucky Rifle.
A few years back I had some BP guns and used Pyrodex powder. I am not interested in using that stuff again. I want to use real black powder and have no idea on which powder is good true black powder. 
The brands I have seen available online:

Scheutzen

Swiss

Graf & Sons

 

Also, I have read that grain sizes for BP are as follows along with their recommended use:

FFFFG - flintlock priming 

FFFG - 45 cal and smaller 

FFG - 50 cal and larger

 

Out of those 3 powders what’s best and for a 50 cal would I use FFG?

 

The rifle won’t be done for a month or so. I plan to use it in mid December for deer and again in January. In January WV has a “Mountaineer Hunting Season”. Sidelock muzzle loaders only for deer, turkey and bear. I don’t hunt bear but I will try for turkey and deer. 

[Michigan Slim]

I use FFg in my 50. FFFg works too but I use patched balls in mine and the FFg gave better accuracy.

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

I had a .50 calibre T/C Hawken percussion and used FFG as the main charge and kept some FFFFG in a small nipple priming device, to use in case of a mis-fire.

(I used to use Curtis and Harvey powders until they disappeared, then it was Swiss)

[Pat Riot]

8 minutes ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

I had a .50 calibre T/C Hawken percussion and used FFG as the main charge and kept some FFFFG in a small nipple priming device, to use in case of a mis-fire.

(I used to use Curtis and Harvey powders until they disappeared, then it was Swiss)

If you had a misfire you would remove the cap, put FFFFG in the nipple, recap with a new cap and then fire it?

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

18 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

I am putting together a Traditions .50 cal percussion Kentucky Rifle.
A few years back I had some BP guns and used Pyrodex powder. I am not interested in using that stuff again. I want to use real black powder and have no idea on which powder is good true black powder. 
The brands I have seen available online:

Scheutzen

Swiss

Graf & Sons

 

Also, I have read that grain sizes for BP are as follows along with their recommended use:

FFFFG - flintlock priming 

FFFG - 45 cal and smaller 

FFG - 50 cal and larger

 

Out of those 3 powders what’s best and for a 50 cal would I use FFG?

 

The rifle won’t be done for a month or so. I plan to use it in mid December for deer and again in January. In January WV has a “Mountaineer Hunting Season”. Sidelock muzzle loaders only for deer, turkey and bear. I don’t hunt bear but I will try for turkey and deer. 

Schuetzen and Grafs are the same powder with different labels on the bottle. Swiss is great but has been generally more expensive for no discernible benefit, in my experience.  Go for the best price. 
 

2FG is my recommendation. 
 

YMMV. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

11 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

If you had a misfire you would remove the cap, put FFFFG in the nipple, recap with a new cap and then fire it?

Keep a nipple pick handy. A pipe cleaner could also work if the hole diameter is big enough, but that would be my second choice. 

[Alpo]

I always used FF in my Thompson Renegade 50 caliber. I used Goex.

[Blackwater 53393]

Any of those powder brands will work well. Goex is starting to return to the market and I have been well satisfied with it as well!!

 

FFg should fill the bill for your new toy and I’m with you!!  Substitutes for Black Powder,  AIN’T!!

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

FFg 

 

  what is the twist  rate that will determine round ball or conical 

 

  CB 

[J-BAR #18287]

5 minutes ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

FFg 

 

 

I agree,  2F is the most versatile, for rifles, handguns, and shotshells.

 

Schuetzen or Graf's would be my choice.

 

Go and smoke with my blessings.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

"Back In the Day," I did a lot of shooting with my .50 TC Hawken.  Oddly (according to some), I had the best accuracy with Maxi-Balls and 3f.

 

Be glad you're no longer in the Golden tarnished, peeling brass-plate state, where we're limited to a maximum possession of one pound of black powder.  

[Subdeacon Joe]

8 minutes ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

we're limited to a maximum possession of one pound of black powder

 

When did that go into effect?   I had 50 pounds at a time shipped to me in 2013.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I use 3F in everything from .36 C&B to 12 Ga. Shotgun....

My .58 loved it under a 610 gr. minnie.... My 54 shoots anything from "Real" bullets , Minnies, Maxies and Round Balls,,, Doesn't like the TC maxie...

My .50 in a Round Ball Gun...

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

[J-BAR #18287]

43 minutes ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

"Back In the Day," I did a lot of shooting with my .50 TC Hawken.  Oddly (according to some), I had the best accuracy with Maxi-Balls and 3f.

 

Be glad you're no longer in the Golden tarnished, peeling brass-plate state, where we're limited to a maximum possession of one pound of black powder.  

 

Hardpan,  when you want move to America let me know.

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot said:

If you had a misfire you would remove the cap, put FFFFG in the nipple, recap with a new cap and then fire it?

 

Yes.

I didn't like doing it because there was always a delay a definite delay before the powder in the nipple set off the main charge,

[Pat Riot]

1 hour ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

FFg 

 

  what is the twist  rate that will determine round ball or conical 

 

  CB 

I don’t know. My gun is still in pieces in the original packaging. I will have to break out the barrel and check and see. 
 

42 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

When did that go into effect?   I had 50 pounds at a time shipped to me in 2013.

I thought it was in 2014, but I am not positive. I know when I moved there in 2018 it was in effect. 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

49 minutes ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

"Back In the Day," I did a lot of shooting with my .50 TC Hawken.  Oddly (according to some), I had the best accuracy with Maxi-Balls and 3f.

 

Be glad you're no longer in the Golden tarnished, peeling brass-plate state, where we're limited to a maximum possession of one pound of black powder.  

 

I had the best accuracy with the 350 grain "Maxi-Ball" as well. I took several deer with those during the primitive season up here. (December)

I found the .490 rb somewhat erratic and not as effective on a larger deer.

 

I learned to hold the lever on the bottom feed Lyman furnace open a little longer after the pour, for Maxi-balls, to ensure the mold was really full as it cooled and the lead solidified, otherwise I ended up with a slight hollow in the base of the bullet, which caused some erratic shots until I discovered what I was doing wrong.

When I cut the excess sprue off, I was "smearing" enough lead over the cavity to make it less noticeable.

I started weighing the bullets.

[Pat Riot]

1 hour ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

FFg 

 

  what is the twist  rate that will determine round ball or conical 

 

  CB 

I found the specs. The barrel has a 1 in 66” twist. 
 

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product/Kentucky-Rifle-Kit-.50-cal-Percussion-KRC52206

[J-BAR #18287]

17 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

I found the specs. The barrel has a 1 in 66” twist. 
 

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product/Kentucky-Rifle-Kit-.50-cal-Percussion-KRC52206

 

That begs for a patched round ball.  Set your sights for 75 yards and go put a hole in a big whitetail!

[Subdeacon Joe]

31 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

I thought it was in 2014, but I am not positive. I know when I moved there in 2018 it was in effect. 

 

Thanks.  I wasn't able to find it on the CA DOJ website, but then, I think it's designed to hide things.  But I also didn't see any shipping restrictions from the few suppliers I remember.  Usually if they can't ship something to CA there is a big disclaimer.

 

ADDED:  What a mess!  One site says that in 2014 it went from 1 pound up to 20 pounds, One site says only one pound.  Another says you can buy 48 pounds at a time.  Federal law says 50 pounds.

[Blackwater 53393]

9 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Thanks.  I wasn't able to find it on the CA DOJ website, but then, I think it's designed to hide things.  But I also didn't see any shipping restrictions from the few suppliers I remember.  Usually if they can't ship something to CA there is a big disclaimer.

 

ADDED:  What a mess!  One site says that in 2014 it went from 1 pound up to 20 pounds, One site says only one pound.  Another says you can buy 48 pounds at a time.  Federal law says 50 pounds.

Aren’t all Kalifornia gun laws designed to try to entrap as many law abiding citizens as possible??

 

It certainly seems that way!!

[Subdeacon Joe]

14 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

certainly seems that way!!

 

Yep.

[Michigan Slim]

4 hours ago, Pat Riot said:

If you had a misfire you would remove the cap, put FFFFG in the nipple, recap with a new cap and then fire it?

You can. I will pull the nipple and put FFg in the flash hole and then reinstall the nipple. Works every time.

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

6 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Keep a nipple pick handy. A pipe cleaner could also work if the hole diameter is big enough, but that would be my second choice. 

 

I kept the nipple pick in the stock's patch holder.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

I am with J Bar , patched RB in a 1 in66 , I use a .015 to .018 patch 

a 1 in 48 , tends to stabilize both RB and conical. 

a 1 in 28 or faster is conical only IMO 

 

  as to charge , I run a bit hot , in my Hawkin , Traditions LH , 85 gns , FFG , under a Buffalow Bullet .HB ballet. 240 gn 

 

  I use the same charge for RB , does well for me 

 

 My Hawkin , is rated for 100 gn max charge , 

 

   CB 

[Subdeacon Joe]

My google-fu has failed.  I have been unable, on the CA DOJ Firearms site to find how much black powder you may have in possession.  

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

12 hours ago, Michigan Slim said:

I use FFg in my 50. FFFg works too but I use patched balls in mine and the FFg gave better accuracy.

What Slim said, and I'll support Gearhart Owens (GOEX) powders as long as they keep making it.  I think it's the only US made black powder and it's always been the best IMHO.

[Pb Mark]

Shoot lots of them.  Swiss is a bit cleaner than Goex and slightly smaller grain size vs Goex.  Unfamiliar with the other two powders.  My put would be - If you are buying a pound or two of powder, get the Swiss in 2F, it is the Cadillac.  If ordering like 50 pounds, buy best price available to you.  

 

A 1:66 only for round-ball.  A Spanish barrel from Traditions is a "B" quality barrel and should provide hunting accuracy, not target grade barrels typically.  A .490 swaged ball from Hornady with a 20 mil patch should be a good starting point.  Main thing on a new barrel is to retrieve some fired patches to determine if they are being cut-up badly in the new barrel.  Might take a bit of shooting to settle down the barrel.  Recommend staying 490/20 because of the new barrel.  Eventually you might find that a .495 ball and 15 mil patch is preferred.  Highly recommend you make or buy a good sturdy range rod for loading happiness.  

 

Nothing better than using that range rod with the barrel breach sitting in warm, soapy water pumping it to clean...smells so goood.  Makes me hungry for some eggs for breakfast just thinking about it.

[Pat Riot]

3 minutes ago, Pb Mark said:

Highly recommend you make or buy a good sturdy range rod for loading happiness.  

I am thinking I will probably buy one of these fiberglass ramrods from Midway USA. 
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002226023/?pid=741480

[Pb Mark]

The gun ramrod needs to be a good fit.  If correct, better than wood one.  I used to have a contact who made thick, lathe machined aluminum anodized range rods with muzzle guard and nice handles but out of business.  I prefer a brass gun ramrod for hunting over a fiberglass one.  Maybe make it yourself from rod stock?  I am fully set-up so have not shopped for years.  

 

Before Midway, go to Track of the Wolf.   Call them if needed vs the website.  The muzzle loading business is what they do, have been around for years, have the quality stuff and parts, etc etc.  Website is a bit difficult to navigate.

[Pat Riot]

This is all great information. Thank you all very much. 
 

I haven’t even built this gun yet and I have already picked out my next one. It’ll be a flintlock pistol…Arghhhh 

[Michigan Slim]

24 minutes ago, Pb Mark said:

Shoot lots of them.  Swiss is a bit cleaner than Goex and slightly smaller grain size vs Goex.  Unfamiliar with the other two powders.  My put would be - If you are buying a pound or two of powder, get the Swiss in 2F, it is the Cadillac.  If ordering like 50 pounds, buy best price available to you.  

 

A 1:66 only for round-ball.  A Spanish barrel from Traditions is a "B" quality barrel and should provide hunting accuracy, not target grade barrels typically.  A .490 swaged ball from Hornady with a 20 mil patch should be a good starting point.  Main thing on a new barrel is to retrieve some fired patches to determine if they are being cut-up badly in the new barrel.  Might take a bit of shooting to settle down the barrel.  Recommend staying 490/20 because of the new barrel.  Eventually you might find that a .495 ball and 15 mil patch is preferred.  Highly recommend you make or buy a good sturdy range rod for loading happiness.  

 

Nothing better than using that range rod with the barrel breach sitting in warm, soapy water pumping it to clean...smells so goood.  Makes me hungry for some eggs for breakfast just thinking about it.

I don't mind the smell when I'm cleaning my rifle in the tub. God help me if my wife is home and I'm using her tub.

The best smell is when you touch it off in the woods and a big white belly shows out in the field. Deer down!

 

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

Hey Pat, I have that exact same kit sitting in line on the workbench. I will get to it if things every stop needing to get done that are higher on the “need” list than on the “want” list. 

[Pat Riot]

1 hour ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

Hey Pat, I have that exact same kit sitting in line on the workbench. I will get to it if things every stop needing to get done that are higher on the “need” list than on the “want” list. 

Cool! You’ll get to it eventually. 

Well, I have had this kit since Christmas of 2017. I got it when we lived in Oregon and intended to put it together but my Pulmonologist told me that BP would be unhealthy for me as she diagnosed me with minor COPD. 
 

Then I moved to California and found out I didn’t have COPD after all, but I wasn’t going to assemble it there because I had no where to shoot it and no one would ship Black Powder to me in CA. 

I also had a Polymer 80 pistol kit there that I wouldn’t assemble. I didn’t want anyone thinking I was manufacturing guns there. 

After I retired and moved to WV I found out I have asthma and never had COPD. So I decided to build it this past Spring and I am just now getting around to it. I assembled the P80 last winter. Now I need to get on this kit and build it. 
 

I am looking forward to getting started on it next weekend. My wife and I are taking a little vacation this week. 

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

Hey Pat. Have a great vacation this week!

 

my kit has only been on the bench since summer ‘22. Always wanted one and ordered it from midway taking advantage of the birthday discount.