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Where Do I Start? How to Improve the Most When You First Start in CAS


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10 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I wonder if some shooters REALLY understand what true speed IS and how it is accomplished.

 

Its shooting a single-action revolver faster than someone can shoot a semi auto pistol.

Its drawing & firing 2 single action revolvers for 10 rounds in less than 2 seconds (1.68 or better).

That includes the draw time.

 

These speeds don't just 'come'.   They don't just happen to pop up one day because we put

a picture of a roadrunner under our pillow and dreamed about speed.

 

From my experience, Phantom and Doc are correct in their assessments of our game/sport 

and in relationship to gaining speed.   Ya gotta push yeowndangself.

Ye gotta go where no one thought possible..... and then still push the limit.

 

..........Widder

 

  Dang it now i have to get rid of my road runner, and widder pics.  

 

 

There is a lot of knowledge being spoken here.   

 

   One big problem with new shooters, is they think they know. 

 I'm not slamming that, ignorance is bliss. 

 

  It's just that until you put everything you know aside and truly push yourself beyond all reason,  you will never know what can be accomplished .

 

  On my race to speed I would watch videos of the greats.    Then myself, and adjust. 

 Then practice.  When you think your getting good, practice more.   Find what works for your body.  Every body is different. Injuries, flexibility,  sensitivity. Try different guns. Try different transitions.  Forget everything you KNOW, and try anything with an honest effort.  Be an open canvas.    

 As you get better you start to realize how ignorant you were when you started.  There is nothing wrong with that,  just don't dig in and get  stubborn. Be fluid,  adapt, and you'll be suprised with what you can achieve. 

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14 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Shot to shot time on a SxS is not super critical. Within reason, how much time is being consumed Shot to Shot?

 

Loading/reloading/unloading the shotgun is critical.

I agree with this, and referenced it in my previous post.

 

How much is it worth? From my perspective and watching videos of my shooting...

 

Assuming 2 followup shots (typical 10-10-4) per stage, lower recoil shells are worth maybe a second per stage.

 

From a speed perspective, I appear to be losing an extra 5 seconds on each stage considering the rest of my shotgun handling.

 

Since I'm trying to go from 60 to 30 second stages, shotgun overall can get me 1/5 of what I am trying to accomplish.

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John, time yourself shooting 10 rounds from your rifle, then time 5 from each pistol, and 4 from your sg. Only time the firing sequences. Add those together for total time it takes you to fire them all. Take that number and subtract it from your average stage time. What's left? That will tell you how efficient you are on the stage when NOT shooting. This is usually where someone is able to take the greatest time off their stage times. Transitions and movement.

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20 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Impatience won't get you anything different.  For most, It will be at least a year or two before they've shot enough to routinely shoot stages under 30 sec.  You can speed that up if you have the time (driving, shooting reloading) and significant money to live-fire practice 2 or 3 times a week.  Dry fire and transition practice also help, without the high associated cost.    

There are video and other resources out there that are helpful, but nothing works better and faster that watching and asking good CAS shooters for help and practicing what they share with you.  They are good shooters for good reason.   There is no substitute for practice and experience.   Also it helps to commit the SHB to memory as much as possible.  Nothing ruins match ranking as fast or effectively as a DQ. 

I am going to disagree with you on most points.  Impatience is a killer for sure.  But if you spend the time to practice properly there is no time frame you can pout on any stage times.  I was shooting high 20 second stages consistently in a few months.  Why?  Because I committed myself to a practice schedule and stuck with it.  I will be shooting 3 years next weekend and consistently shoot ion the mid teens now.  Your progress will depend on a number of factors but the biggest is the way you practice and how much time you commit to it.  

 

As far as the SHB.  Learning the rules comes with experience and interest.  I know shooters who have been around 20+ years that know next to nothing about them and still place in the Top 5.  One has nothing to do with the other.  

 

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18 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Spend $150 on a good timer with a par time option.  PACT, Competition Electronics are the usual choices. Dry fire against a challenging par time.

 

Buy or borrow Evil Roy’s DVDs.  Watch them repeatedly.  You won’t get it all the first time through.

 

Take videos of yourself shooting.  Get critique from the top shooters in your club.

 

In my experience, practicing with a timer when you first start does more harm than good.  Most are too worried about the timer and TRY to go fast instead of running their guns smoothly.  This creates bad habits that translate to slower stage times.  When we first start out, the focus should be on proper technique and NOT speed.  IMO, speed practice isn't something that should be done until you are very proficient in the basic technique.  If not, the bad technique will trump the fast gun manipulation almost every time.  

 

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18 hours ago, Chacón said:

Thank you so much for this.  I have a lot to l earn.  for me, safe gun manipulation > going fast at this time.  Once I get that down, I will move onto transitions.

That is a mistake in my opinion.  You should learn transitions and marksmanship first.  The speed will come with reps but if you learn how to manipulate your guns fast without good marksmanship it will take you longer to unlearn it and relearn how to shoot properly.  Take it slow at first and get your technique perfect and you will be pleasantly surprised how much your speed naturally increases without much effort.  

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14 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

This may sound harsh, but I'm going to use it as a teaching moment. 

 

Where will the speed come from?  It doesn't.  You want to shoot fast?  Practice shooting fast.  Yeah, you'll miss a lot.  That's expected.  Your eyes are moved by muscles.  Those muscles don't really get exercised during normal course of activities.  When you shoot faster than you can see the sights, you're exercising those eye muscles.  They get stronger (yes, you can improve your vision), they get faster.  Eventually, at the speed you're shooting, you stop missing because you can see your sights.  Now speed up again.  Keep going through the cycles.

 

If you want to shoot fast, you have to practice shooting fast.  It's far easier to teach fundamentals, than speed.  Work on the speed first.  The bad habits can be fixed.  This comes from personal experience with several shooters that I've worked with. 

 

If you want to shoot fast, you have to practice shooting fast.

I agree but this was directed at brand new shooters.  If you are trying to push your speed when you first start it will keep you from learning good technique.  Once the technique is solid, then the speed work is more effective.  But that is my take.  I know shooters who shoot really fast strings but can't put together a  sub 20 run because everything else is so sloppy.  Why?  Because they focused on practicing fast and never took the time to practice their technique.  To shoot fast consistently, there must be a foundation to build on.  

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This blog and advice is for BRAND NEW SHOOTERS.  Those with less than a year in our sport.  I agree that eventually you need to push your speed.  But not at first.  You need a foundation to build that speed on.  If you never take the time in the beginning to learn good technique, all that speed will amount to a bunch of fast strings and slow transitions.  Yes, at some point if you want to shoot fast you have to push yourself to do so.  But not at first.  Take the time to learn proper fundamentals and then once they are proficient, then push your speed.  

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57 minutes ago, The Outlaw Travis James said:

That is a mistake in my opinion.  You should learn transitions and marksmanship first.  The speed will come with reps but if you learn how to manipulate your guns fast without good marksmanship it will take you longer to unlearn it and relearn how to shoot properly.  Take it slow at first and get your technique perfect and you will be pleasantly surprised how much your speed naturally increases without much effort.  

 

You must be reading something that isn't there.  I'm not even to transitions yet.  I'm still working on getting comfortable running my guns.  I tend to agree with your point that the speed will come.

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3 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

You must be reading something that isn't there.  I'm not even to transitions yet.  I'm still working on getting comfortable running my guns.  I tend to agree with your point that the speed will come.

Contrary to those that have been teaching World/National Champs for like...ever...

 

:wacko:

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3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Contrary to those that have been teaching World/National Champs for like...ever...

 

:wacko:

I've been shooting USPSA for 17 years.  Nothing in cowboy action shooting even remotely approaches the speed of that sport.  If you want to roll your eyes, so be it.  In any event, you should know that argument from authority is fallacious.

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Just now, Chacón said:

I've been shooting USPSA for 17 years.  Nothing in cowboy action shooting even remotely approaches the speed of that sport.  If you want to roll your eyes, so be it.  In any event, you should know that argument from authority is fallacious.

Haha!!

 

Ooookay...cuz USPSA is so transition heavy.

 

Glad yer so up on what makes a competitive Cowboy Action Shooter. 

 

Gotta love the Wire and all the new found wisdom.

 

Phantom

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38 minutes ago, Chacón said:

I've been shooting USPSA for 17 years.  Nothing in cowboy action shooting even remotely approaches the speed of that sport.  If you want to roll your eyes, so be it.  In any event, you should know that argument from authority is fallacious.

Apparently, you haven't seen some of our best.

YouTube Matt Black, Missouri Lefty, Deuce Stevens running a rifle and tell me that again. Whatever!

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6 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Apparently, you haven't seen some of our best.

YouTube Matt Black, Missouri Lefty, Deuce Stevens running a rifle and tell me that again. Whatever!

Haven't met any of them, but it doesn't change the sentiment.  Fast splits are fast splits, but nobody is running .10 splits in a match with a lever action rifle.  Not that it's all that important to have splits that fast anyway.....but the people actually winning in USPSA open are physically shooting faster than anyone in a sport that requires manually operated guns.....it's just not physically possible to run a gun as fast as those people are shooting.

 

Not sure what we're disagreeing about here, however.  If people really want me to believe switching guns is more important (happens twice a stage), vs. actually running the lever/hammer (happens 20 times per stage), I have no problem telling them what I think of that.  Until a shooter can comfortably run all 4 guns at speed, transitions are a luxury.  After that, I agree entirely that it's important to focus on transitions.

 

All of this really fits into the category of efficiency of movement, whether it's foot steps, moving from one target to the next (getting your eyes there, then the gun), efficient gun handling, etc.  It's not uncommon for new people to think "shooting faster" is all that matters, but if you actually break down a stage, "shooting" takes hardly any time compared to looking for targets, switching guns, and in our sport because of the manual nature of them, actually operating the guns themselves.  The main efficiency gains are going to come from movement in general--all of that movement.

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59 minutes ago, Chacón said:

I've been shooting USPSA for 17 years.  Nothing in cowboy action shooting even remotely approaches the speed of that sport.  If you want to roll your eyes, so be it.  In any event, you should know that argument from authority is fallacious.

So in those 17 years how many national titles have you won?   You may know what it takes to win there.  However, here you would do better by listening because what your suggesting doesn't  create a fast shooter here.  It actually hinders.   It can get you to the 20s. However to truly fast in sass you need to be able to dance with the 8 to 14 second range.   You won't find anyone in uspsa that can shoot 2 pistols a rifle and a shotgun,  loading the shotgun.  under 10 seconds. 

 

   Yes  the majority of sass shooters can't compete at top level with other disciplines.  Just like their top dogs  can't compete here.   Jerry michalek sp?  Got destroyed by a mediocre cowboy shooter Shooting cowboy, but you put an ar or 2011 in in our hands and we couldn't touch him.  

 It's apple's to orange's. 

  A few of us do compete in 3 gun and other disciplines as well. Each style has its strengths. Each style has its best ways to learn and to  advance.    Not better or worse just different. 

  Trying to be fast in sass by using what works in uspsa is a recipe for failure. 

 

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1 minute ago, evil dogooder said:

So in those 17 years how many national titles have you won?   You may know what it takes to win there.  However, here you would do better by listening because what your suggesting doesn't  create a fast shooter here.  It actually hinders.   It can get you to the 20s. However to truly fast in sass you need to be able to dance with the 8 to 14 second range.   You won't find anyone in uspsa that can shoot 2 pistols a rifle and a shotgun,  loading the shotgun.  under 10 seconds. 

 

   Yes  the majority of sass shooters can't compete at top level with other disciplines.  Just like their top dogs  can't compete here.   Jerry michalek sp?  Got destroyed by a mediocre cowboy shooter Shooting cowboy, but you put an ar or 2011 in in our hands and we couldn't touch him.  

 It's apple's to orange's. 

  A few of us do compete in 3 gun and other disciplines as well. Each style has its strengths. Each style has its best ways to learn and to  advance.    Not better or worse just different. 

  Trying to be fast in sass by using what works in uspsa is a recipe for failure. 

 

Is it seriously your position that it is more important to learn how to switch guns than to learn how to run the hammer of a revolver or the lever of a rifle correctly under fire?  Or have you been shooting for so long that you can't think that would be hard for a newbie?  I'm really curious what all the disagreement is about in that area.  Obviously a person can never shoot fast if he can't run the gun, and I'm telling you right now, all these manually operated guns are a huge challenge FOR ME.

 

Also, shooting efficiently is not a recipe for failure.  What it means to shoot efficiently differs, but to move and shoot efficiently is the goal of ANY action shooting sport.  It doesn't mean it's the "same" set of skills, either, sports are different and have different techniques and rules.

 

Jerry Miculek could whoop us all with a slingshot.  The man is a legend.

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Wow, I'm just a light weight. However, my suggestion to new shooters would be to not do stooopid stuff on the clock; climbing into windows, crowding props, squatting to shoot, dancing around rather than plant one's feet, not using both hands, etc. This stuff eats up the clock. Running the guns is only part of a stage, there are many ways to cut time.

Proper stage management is another; shooting R-L rather than L-R, taking the SG with you rather than placing back at the shoot position, staging guns in the best position, shooting the SG last and not shucking on the clock, etc. Usually there is free time that can be found on most stages. 

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59 minutes ago, Chacón said:

Haven't met any of them, but it doesn't change the sentiment.  Fast splits are fast splits, but nobody is running .10 splits in a match with a lever action rifle.  Not that it's all that important to have splits that fast anyway.....but the people actually winning in USPSA open are physically shooting faster than anyone in a sport that requires manually operated guns.....it's just not physically possible to run a gun as fast as those people are shooting.

 

Not sure what we're disagreeing about here, however.  If people really want me to believe switching guns is more important (happens twice a stage), vs. actually running the lever/hammer (happens 20 times per stage), I have no problem telling them what I think of that.  Until a shooter can comfortably run all 4 guns at speed, transitions are a luxury.  After that, I agree entirely that it's important to focus on transitions.

 

All of this really fits into the category of efficiency of movement, whether it's foot steps, moving from one target to the next (getting your eyes there, then the gun), efficient gun handling, etc.  It's not uncommon for new people to think "shooting faster" is all that matters, but if you actually break down a stage, "shooting" takes hardly any time compared to looking for targets, switching guns, and in our sport because of the manual nature of them, actually operating the guns themselves.  The main efficiency gains are going to come from movement in general--all of that movement.

Have you watched the YouTube video of Matt Black v. Jerry Michelak?  You might enjoy it.  

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6 hours ago, evil dogooder said:

  Dang it now i have to get rid of my road runner, and widder pics.  

 

 

There is a lot of knowledge being spoken here.   

 

   One big problem with new shooters, is they think they know. 

 I'm not slamming that, ignorance is bliss. 

 

  It's just that until you put everything you know aside and truly push yourself beyond all reason,  you will never know what can be accomplished .

 

  On my race to speed I would watch videos of the greats.    Then myself, and adjust. 

 Then practice.  When you think your getting good, practice more.   Find what works for your body.  Every body is different. Injuries, flexibility,  sensitivity. Try different guns. Try different transitions.  Forget everything you KNOW, and try anything with an honest effort.  Be an open canvas.    

 As you get better you start to realize how ignorant you were when you started.  There is nothing wrong with that,  just don't dig in and get  stubborn. Be fluid,  adapt, and you'll be suprised with what you can achieve. 

New shooters have all got to do it their way and enjoy the consequences.  What's logical when you start something is seldom the same as the logic after you become proficient, and it all changes again after you reach the top couple %.  That's probably true in any sport or other undertaking.  If you want accuracy, you have to practice it.  If you want speed, you've got to practice that too.  "A" doesn't just come by practicing "B" ---- never did.   

In our sport, speed IS a fundamental skill, not an add on.  

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1 hour ago, Chacón said:

Is it seriously your position that it is more important to learn how to switch guns than to learn how to run the hammer of a revolver or the lever of a rifle correctly under fire?  Or have you been shooting for so long that you can't think that would be hard for a newbie?  I'm 

 

Also, shooting efficiently is not a recipe for failure.  What 

Jerry Miculek could whoop us all with a slingshot.  The man is a legend.

  Jerry is a legend.  Ive had the honor to talk to him.  As for whipping us, watch shooting network on utube from like 5 years ago maybe.   It was on there when he was beat by a cowboy shooter. 

 

 Yes,  transitions actually do take more time For a new shooter.   Transitions aren't just picking up a gun.  It's from when one shot to the next.   Between targets,  between guns,  between shooting locations. It's all transitions.   When your rifle is up and running.  A good shooter will run the ten rounds under 2 seconds.  A mid pack is under 4 and most slow are under 8.    Now if it takes you longer to than a couple of seconds  to get your rifle up , in position and firing.  You just doubled your time. 

 

 

 As  for how long I've not been a newbie, I'm currently going through it all over again.  My 8 year old daughter and 10 year old son started shooting this year.  Also I have been putting on new shooter clinics multiple times a year for the past few years.  As well as giving lessons and teaching classes at state and regional matches. As well as on my personal range at my farm.  So I would say that I do have a pretty good handle on what a new shooter is doing.

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3 hours ago, The Outlaw Travis James said:

I am going to disagree with you on most points.  Impatience is a killer for sure.  But if you spend the time to practice properly there is no time frame you can pout on any stage times.  I was shooting high 20 second stages consistently in a few months.  Why?  Because I committed myself to a practice schedule and stuck with it.  I will be shooting 3 years next weekend and consistently shoot ion the mid teens now.  Your progress will depend on a number of factors but the biggest is the way you practice and how much time you commit to it.  

 

As far as the SHB.  Learning the rules comes with experience and interest.  I know shooters who have been around 20+ years that know next to nothing about them and still place in the Top 5.  One has nothing to do with the other.  

 

OK, sir. Whatever you say.  You're making great progress.  We look for average minus times from you in the next year or two.  Looking forward to watching.   Matt Black better get to practicing!

 

Oh, and nobody said practice doesn't matter.  

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All this talk of shooting mid teen stages or high twenties, etc is a moot point. One club may run stand and deliver stages, another may run a scenario with a couple steps to the next shot position, others may actually have 12-15 yards of total movement. Stage sequences are also time sensitive. Some clubs use 4 SG targets others 2 or 4. Distance and target size also effects stage times. 

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KoppThe stage layout and mix of targets presented to the shooter in SASS vs USPSA is so different that you can't really compare.  Miculek is willing to do demos with guns he doesn't formally practice with but you don't see the reverse happening. He is a world champ in USPSA, ICORE, Steel Challenge, 3 gun, IPSC World shoot rifle, shotgun, Bianchi cup, IDPA, etc. 

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33 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

As far as the SHB.  Learning the rules comes with experience and interest.  I know shooters who have been around 20+ years that know next to nothing about them and still place in the Top 5.  One has nothing to do with the other.  

 

I guess as long as stages run perfectly for you every time, the SHB might be pretty irrelevant.  But when guns act up, or KD targets start falling prematurely, or a spotter calls out wrong direction, things can change and disorient fairly quickly.  Knowing or not knowing the procedures at those times directly affects how quickly and penalty-freely you can respond.   And that's pretty important to those average sub-20 stage times. 

 

So I guess we just have to agree to disagree again.  

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2 hours ago, Chacón said:

Haven't met any of them, but it doesn't change the sentiment.  Fast splits are fast splits, but nobody is running .10 splits in a match with a lever action rifle.  Not that it's all that important to have splits that fast anyway.....but the people actually winning in USPSA open are physically shooting faster than anyone in a sport that requires manually operated guns.....it's just not physically possible to run a gun as fast as those people are.

Would one of you PLEASE post the video of Matt outrunning the full auto sub-machine gun!!!

Chacon, you're correct about the fastest not running a .10 split with the lever rifle. I believe it is .157 if my math is correct:ph34r:

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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Would one of you PLEASE post the video of Matt outrunning the full auto sub-machine gun!!!

Chacon, you're correct about the fastest not running a .10 split with the lever rifle. I believe it is .157 if my math is correct:ph34r:

Jerry put 8 shots, 2 shots on 4 seperate targets from low ready in 1 second. Also the famous 6 shots, reload 6 shots on one target in 2.99 seconds. But these are just demonstrations. His match shooting record is the important part.

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2 hours ago, Chacón said:

but the people actually winning in USPSA open are physically shooting faster than anyone in a sport that requires manually operated guns.....it's just not physically possible to run a gun as fast as those people are shooting.

 

Haven't tried it in a while, but back when I was shooting every weekend even I could unload five out of my Vaqueros than you could out of a 1911.  I don't have to wait on the gun to cycle.

 

And as a good friend would say, "And I'm just a B-team player."

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3 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Jerry put 8 shots, 2 shots on 4 seperate targets from low ready in 1 second. Also the famous 6 shots, reload 6 shots on one target in 2.99 seconds. But these are just demonstrations. His match shooting record is the important part.

Wonder what the record is for speed gunfighter? It's 1.81 is on film for 10 shots on target from holsters...and it's been done faster. That's with those manually operated ruger vaqueros.

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26 minutes ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

Do you have a link for that video?

I'll look for it.  I'm sure if you Google the two names, it will come up.  

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43 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Would one of you PLEASE post the video of Matt outrunning the full auto sub-machine gun!!!

Chacon, you're correct about the fastest not running a .10 split with the lever rifle. I believe it is .157 if my math is correct:ph34r:

 

Realistically .157 seconds is faster than me unless I really focus that day with a bottom feeder.  With a revolver I'm a total amateur, which is why I'm here and reading this thread.  I can say I'm going to practice transitions from target to target before my next match.  That seems like low hanging fruit from what you guys are saying and that should help me a lot.  Starting out as a gunfighter has reallllllllly driven my brain bonkers though.

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3 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

Realistically .157 seconds is faster than me unless I really focus that day with a bottom feeder.  With a revolver I'm a total amateur, which is why I'm here and reading this thread.  I can say I'm going to practice transitions from target to target before my next match.  That seems like low hanging fruit from what you guys are saying and that should help me a lot.  Starting out as a gunfighter has reallllllllly driven my brain bonkers though.

Our sport only looks easy.  Misleading. 

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40 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Wonder what the record is for speed gunfighter? It's 1.81 is on film for 10 shots on target from holsters...and it's been done faster. That's with those manually operated ruger vaqueros.

 

Missouri Lefty set the record for fastest Gunfighter (all four guns on the world record target array) in 2018, 15.94 seconds.  It is the first of four records shown in the video.  The other three are blackpowder categories.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And you know this...based on your experience...over those old farts that have been training/mentoring/etc for years. Let us know when you've trained multiple World and National Overall Champions.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

Pretty sure I can speak from experience and shooting fast first and then learning the fundamentals is NOT the only way to become a fast shooter. 

 

Stan

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