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Ammo Shortage Match Adjustments


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44 minutes ago, vidette said:

Caprock, how do you handle scoring for “full” vs “reduced” shooters?

Al lot of great answers and ideas here.  This is a great question. 

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I think State level championships and above should be shot as they always have.  Monthly matches?  Anything goes.      

These are the changes we have made for our matches (monthlies, not the annual). We have temporarily added a few categories to keep folks shooting rather than have them not come because of ammo shortag

I wouldn't attend a four stage match. Not worth the drive time or gas money for me. If it came to .22's as a separate category with no overall match consideration or a four stage match.....I'd go with

Hey Sarge.  We shot at Lapeer today and there were a couple guys shooting 22’s.  As they are just fun monthly shoots during the winter overall scoring is not an issue.  But I believe they plan to allow 22’s all year.  There were two lightning pumps that were fun to watch.  

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5 minutes ago, Sinola Kid said:

Hey Sarge.  We shot at Lapeer today and there were a couple guys shooting 22’s.  As they are just fun monthly shoots during the winter overall scoring is not an issue.  But I believe they plan to allow 22’s all year.  There were two lightning pumps that were fun to watch.  

We are going to be discussing this issue Wednesday.  Lots of good ideas here.  

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Sarge, if you wouldn't mind, post to this thread with whatever your club decides. Not saying we all have to do the same thing, but it would certainly help if we could standardize on some formats.

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2 minutes ago, vidette said:

Sarge, if you wouldn't mind, post to this thread with whatever your club decides. Not saying we all have to do the same thing, but it would certainly help if we could standardize on some formats.

Will do,  

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I've written the scenarios for Orange County Regulators for our last match and the one upcoming.  With a little creativity you CAN reduce required rounds by 20-25% without making the scenarios too short or boring.  Plus, bringing back a little more of the old-school flavor.  One stage started with pistol empty and you had to load it on the clock.  One stage had one shotgun shot at one position and one at a different position.  Another stage had you stage rifle with only one round in it, but you had to do 3 reloads.  Then we had one stage that was only 2 pistols.  Shoot one and record time.  Shoot other and record time.  Score was difference of times.  (We scored it separate from other 5 stages.)

 

Now, would your shooters enjoy them?  I don't know, but ours sure did.

 

Possum

December 19. 2020 Orange.pdf

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14 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

I've written the scenarios for Orange County Regulators for our last match and the one upcoming.  With a little creativity you CAN reduce required rounds by 20-25% without making the scenarios too short or boring.  Plus, bringing back a little more of the old-school flavor.  One stage started with pistol empty and you had to load it on the clock.  One stage had one shotgun shot at one position and one at a different position.  Another stage had you stage rifle with only one round in it, but you had to do 3 reloads.  Then we had one stage that was only 2 pistols.  Shoot one and record time.  Shoot other and record time.  Score was difference of times.  (We scored it separate from other 5 stages.)

 

Now, would your shooters enjoy them?  I don't know, but ours sure did.

 

Possum

December 19. 2020 Orange.pdf 238.4 kB · 1 download

Very creative.

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I have been thinking about this for a few months and brought it up this past Saturday at our monthly... was shot down.

Had the idea, as some have said, of doing some of what had been done eons ago; one pistol or no rifle or shotgun on SOME of the stages, not all.

I thought it might help on the round expenditure but others did not like the idea. I get it that we want a "full" match and not take anything away, but some are already hurting in the ammo stores and some will be soon. We are down, as I'm sure most clubs are, in attendance and I'm sure some of that is due to ammo shortage.

God bless ya if you have all you can shoot, but some don't. I know we can still have some fun and challenging stages cutting back a little.

Hope we don't lose more due to ammo reasons. :(

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I agree with you 100%, Rainmaker.

 

To me it’s sad when folks get so used to running on a road that they refuse to ever make a detour out into the woods to see what’s there.  Can only run on the road, then get burned out because they never see or try anything else.

 

I’m super lucky to shoot with the folks we have here.  They’re usually up for trying anything.  (At least once :) )

 

Possum

 

ps: if anyone wants to see our scenarios for our match this coming Saturday send me your email and I will forward them to you.  Or I can attach them here when I get home.

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Nothing really new in this article, but I found these quotes a potent reminder of what our mid-term outlook is:

 

Quote

Jason Hornady said that they are producing about 30-percent more ammo than would normally be considered full production and 40-percent more reloading components. He said that if orders stopped coming in today, it would take two years to catch up

 

Quote

we are looking at somewhere between the fall of 2021 and the spring of 2022 before things show any sign of returning to normal

https://www.mossyoak.com/our-obsession/blogs/news/where-is-the-ammo

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These are the changes we have made for our matches (monthlies, not the annual). We have temporarily added a few categories to keep folks shooting rather than have them not come because of ammo shortages (because we all know that once they leave and start new interests, there is a fair chance they won't return). Bear in mind that our monthly matches are still written as they always were  for those that still want to shoot all their guns. These additional categories are scored separately:

 

  • Sheepherder: all four guns, but in .22 for rifle and pistols
  • Working Cowboy: one pistol and a rifle
  • Range Detective: two pistols and a rifle
  • Homesteader: rifle and shotgun

Not a perfect solution, but trying to keep folks shooting as long as they can

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I also look at this as an opportunity to help out new shooters on tight budgets. With the cost of scalpers ammo, it can easily run $100 or more just to shoot a traditional match if you don't reload centerfire. I know, golf is expensive too, as are other hobbies, but maybe this can become a blessing in disguise to draw new shooters.

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Stirrup, I think your group's efforts are commendable.

In the business world, the hardest customer to get, is the one you just lost.
I can see this happening in SASS, and in my Masonic lodge as well.

Lock-downs and chronic shortages will indeed change the face of group memberships.
I personally will fall into your Sheep Herder category.
It is most important to me that I do not spend down my stock of ammo and components, because I cannot replenish them.
 

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One club I shoot at has an all shotgun stage consisting of 8 to 12 targets. We have been shooting it for years every other month and it is quite popular. 

 

To facilitate those that cannot put that many shells in their belt we always start with two shells in hand and allow the pre-staging of shells at any or all shooting positions. Each spot has a holder built in that allows for 4 shells to be staged vertically in pairs for easier reloading. Stage has a lot of movement with no more than 4 shots at any position.

 

We also started a .22 category for adults and a 2 gun working Cowboy category.

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30 minutes ago, StirrupTrouble said:

These are the changes we have made for our matches (monthlies, not the annual). We have temporarily added a few categories to keep folks shooting rather than have them not come because of ammo shortages (because we all know that once they leave and start new interests, there is a fair chance they won't return). Bear in mind that our monthly matches are still written as they always were  for those that still want to shoot all their guns. These additional categories are scored separately:

 

  • Sheepherder: all four guns, but in .22 for rifle and pistols
  • Working Cowboy: one pistol and a rifle
  • Range Detective: two pistols and a rifle
  • Homesteader: rifle and shotgun

Not a perfect solution, but trying to keep folks shooting as long as they can

 

Looks like a great solution to me.

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31 minutes ago, StirrupTrouble said:

These are the changes we have made for our matches (monthlies, not the annual). We have temporarily added a few categories to keep folks shooting rather than have them not come because of ammo shortages (because we all know that once they leave and start new interests, there is a fair chance they won't return). Bear in mind that our monthly matches are still written as they always were  for those that still want to shoot all their guns. These additional categories are scored separately:

 

  • Sheepherder: all four guns, but in .22 for rifle and pistols
  • Working Cowboy: one pistol and a rifle
  • Range Detective: two pistols and a rifle
  • Homesteader: rifle and shotgun

Not a perfect solution, but trying to keep folks shooting as long as they can

I like this approach.  How do you handle the scoring differentials?

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16 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I like this approach.  How do you handle the scoring differentials?

 

The additional categories are just scored by themselves, separate from the overall. We toyed with the idea of using math to assume the extra gun times, but that did not feel fair as we would be basing their scores upon an assumed time, not an actual time. So we have our regular overall, top working cowboy, top homesteader, etc

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I thought the bayonet was for when you ran out of ammo?  Can't I just run down there and stab them targets in an arizona sweep? 

 

Tell ya what though, if it comes to that I'm going to stop shooting cody dixon and sharp shooter. 

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12 minutes ago, StirrupTrouble said:

 

The additional categories are just scored by themselves, separate from the overall. We toyed with the idea of using math to assume the extra gun times, but that did not feel fair as we would be basing their scores upon an assumed time, not an actual time. So we have our regular overall, top working cowboy, top homesteader, etc

Was there any thought to adding additional activities on the clock for those categories to even things out?  

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1 minute ago, Sarge said:

Was there any thought to adding additional activities on the clock for those categories to even things out?  

 

You know, it wasn't brought up. I'll bring that up at the next meeting for discussion. Thanks!

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On 1/10/2021 at 11:49 AM, vidette said:

Caprock, how do you handle scoring for “full” vs “reduced” shooters?

Mis-spoke earlier - we don't try to create a new category, but add RR to the alias (e.g. Caprock RR).  Shooter still lists their "normal category". Means shooter has to scan the match results to see where they fall in the their category/round count.  Won't work for points, but we shoot time only.  We do the same when we shoot Josey Wales (add JW to alias).

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On 1/10/2021 at 5:45 PM, vidette said:

Sarge, if you wouldn't mind, post to this thread with whatever your club decides. Not saying we all have to do the same thing, but it would certainly help if we could standardize on some formats.

Here is what our club decided to do at a club level at our meeting tonight.

 

Create a category Sodbuster.  Sodbuster will use 1 pistol, 1 rifle and 1 shotgun.  They will shoot in their own class.  However, for the sake of overall scoring, they will not be entered into the scoring and will be considered an "exhibition class."

 

.22 s will be allowed.  They will be placed in category "Sheepherders."  Sheepherders may shoot any style (gunfighter, duelist, etc.). They may use only .22s or a combination .22  and other calibers.  For example, competitor may have one .22 pistol and on .38 spl pistol.  High velocity ammunition will not be allowed.  Competitors using .22 rifles with tubular magazines will not be allowed to reload on reloading rifle stages (Probably a non-issue as we don't run too many reloading stages).  These shooters will be scored with all others for overall score.

 

We discussed fewer stages, but it was unanimous that people drive a distance to shoot and we should continue with five stage matches.  We also discussed reducing rounds fired.  Again, the decision was we should not reduce anything about our matches.

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It sounds like you have done a great job of listening to your shooters and following their suggestions. That's what makes the difference between a club that grows and one that declines, especially in times like these. Congratulations!

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I recently went to one of my local matches and was surprised to see a regular shooter not shooting, I asked them why.   They said that ammo was becoming a problem and when the math was done they could only shoot every other or every third match.  Using a .22 wasn’t an option because they don’t have any .22 guns.  I was surprised that they came out and then stayed, helping with posse duties.  To me this speaks volumes about so many things.

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Do what My son and I did:

Reload for the carbine, and shotgun, and 

Use two CB BP revolvers, and shoot the rest with regular shells, and cartridges.

 

We took one look at the future of the ammo shortage and it was a obvious solution to keep us shooting. 

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Remember there are chamber inserts for 22lR for 45lc chambers too... if it gets to .22 allowances. 

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How do the scoring programs work for the categories with reduced number of firearms and 22 caliber ammo that are excluded from contention for overall? It appears to be a scoring nightmare or do you not score these non-compliant categories and the participants just shoot for the enjoyment.

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1 hour ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

How do the scoring programs work for the categories with reduced number of firearms and 22 caliber ammo that are excluded from contention for overall? It appears to be a scoring nightmare or do you not score these non-compliant categories and the participants just shoot for the enjoyment.

 

Scoring programs only care about total time + misses + penalties.  Shoot 2 guns or 5 doesn't matter.

 

For clubs where they do an overall ranking those shooting the new categories are not factored in.

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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46 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

How do the scoring programs work for the categories with reduced number of firearms and 22 caliber ammo that are excluded from contention for overall? It appears to be a scoring nightmare or do you not score these non-compliant categories and the participants just shoot for the enjoyment.

Those shooting .22 are not excluded from overall.  So it makes no difference from a scoring standpoint.  If they are shooting the Sodbuster (one pistol only), they are considered an "Exhibition" category and the time will be recorded, but it will not be entered into the scoring system.

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@Sarge my comment about speaking volumes was geared more towards the person that came out and helped and the type of person they are.  However, I could see how it could be looked at as a statement about shortages.

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