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Don Coyote, SASS #63736

LTO Duties Required at Local Matches??

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Our local TG was not in attendance at EOT in 2019 so missed the TG meeting. Just recently, after reviewing the minutes only available to TGs, he believes that  the result of the discussion on item #9 as determining that the LTO must at least be performed by fellow shooters at the LT at local clubs that don't have LTOs. Is this a correct assumption? Didn't happen at our 2018 EOT, has never taken place during our 6 shoots at Winter Range, or our 10 shoots at Bordertown. As a board member of Arizona Yavapai Rangers, need some clarification.

DC

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7 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Maybe send a PM, to PWB.

Have your TG, post the question in the TG section here.

OLG

Thanks, OLG. Just requested our TG to do 1 or both.

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8.      The issue of enforcing Loading Table Officers was raised.  The question was “are they an absolute requirement?”  The TG pointed out how the requirement for a specific LTO is applied differently from club to club.  Blackjack Zak (MD at Winter Range) and Lassiter/Deuce (MDs at EOT) all agreed that there must be someone checking at the Loading Table, either a specific person assigned as an LTO……or shooters at the LT check each other.  In either case, a person MUST BE checking, as per our rules.   A consensus was reached that what really matters is that the firearms are checked, whether by an adjacent shooter or by an LTO.  

 

http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/EoT 2019 TG meeting minutes - FINAL.pdf

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5 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

8.      The issue of enforcing Loading Table Officers was raised.  The question was “are they an absolute requirement?”  The TG pointed out how the requirement for a specific LTO is applied differently from club to club.  Blackjack Zak (MD at Winter Range) and Lassiter/Deuce (MDs at EOT) all agreed that there must be someone checking at the Loading Table, either a specific person assigned as an LTO……or shooters at the LT check each other.  In either case, a person MUST BE checking, as per our rules.   A consensus was reached that what really matters is that the firearms are checked, whether by an adjacent shooter or by an LTO.  

http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/EoT 2019 TG meeting minutes - FINAL.pdf

 

The minutes of EoT and WR TG meetings are available to the public on THIS SITE (which is linked to the SASS SHOOTER HANDBOOKS page).

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Humm? Seems like I've heard all of this before. 

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On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 8:30 PM, Snakebite said:

Humm? Seems like I've heard all of this before. 

I agree. But what I haven't seen is a directive to local clubs that this is a required procedure. Rather than relying on local TGs to spread the rule, would be nice if some sort on communication would come from the SASS office. Most SASS affiliated clubs include the phrase, "all SASS rules apply" in their shooters meeting. If "LTO duties" in whatever form are not a part of the LT procedures, are we lying when we use that particular phrase? Just asking.

DC

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46 minutes ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said:

I agree. But what I haven't seen is a directive to local clubs that this is a required procedure. Rather than relying on local TGs to spread the rule, would be nice if some sort on communication would come from the SASS office. Most SASS affiliated clubs include the phrase, "all SASS rules apply" in their shooters meeting. If "LTO duties" in whatever form are not a part of the LT procedures, are we lying when we use that particular phrase? Just asking.

DC

 

It is one of a Territorial Governor's duties and responsibilities to communicate information to his/her club members.

The minutes of that meeting were posted on ALL SASS forums (including the TG Wire).

The entire transcript was posted on this forum as well:

 

 

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8 hours ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said:

I agree. But what I haven't seen is a directive to local clubs that this is a required procedure. Rather than relying on local TGs to spread the rule, would be nice if some sort on communication would come from the SASS office. Most SASS affiliated clubs include the phrase, "all SASS rules apply" in their shooters meeting. If "LTO duties" in whatever form are not a part of the LT procedures, are we lying when we use that particular phrase? Just asking.

DC

There is only so much that can be done..... the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink", applies. My comment was really just a bit of sarcasm, since I have beat this horse to death over the years, using the exact same examples that you used. Enforcement of the rules does indeed start at the top of the game, but the fact remains that rule enforcement can only be accomplished at the Club level. If the rules are not enforced at our Major events, then it becomes more likely that they will be disregarded at our local events. I believe that more people are swept with loaded firearms at the Loading tables than at any other location on the Firing Line. The LTO is an important position. If another shooter is to be used as a "temporary" LTO, then that person should take the job seriously while doing it. He/she should NOT continue to load their own guns while inspecting others. Just step out of character for the moment, be the LTO and do a proper job of it. Then become a shooter again and let the next person at the LT assume the mantle of LTO. It is NOT as good as having a dedicated LTO, but it is far better than nothing at all, which is what is now happening at far too many matches.

 

Snakebite 

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And what is the consequence (penalty) for not loading under the direction of a LTO? Are we going to start awarding SDQs for not following loading/unloading table procedures?

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38 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

. I believe that more people are swept with loaded firearms at the Loading tables than at any other location on the Firing Line.

Isn't sweeping anyone with a  gun, loaded or not a range violation? Are you saying this is not being enforced?

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Of course it is a violation, but I have never seen a shooter at the loading table make a issue of it when the person in front of them loads a handgun, and then sweeps him while holstering it. No, of course it does not happen all the time, and our shooters are generally very responsible, but getting swept by a loaded handgun at the loading table is IMO much more likely than it happening during the course of fire. An active LTO could help deter that from happening. Just knowing that someone is watching encourages the person loading to not be cavalier with his/her actions. So to answer your question,  Yes, I am indirectly saying that when no one is watching the shooter load, then it is much more likely to happen, and is therefore not enforced. 

 

Snakebite

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

There is only so much that can be done..... the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink", applies. My comment was really just a bit of sarcasm, since I have beat this horse to death over the years, using the exact same examples that you used. Enforcement of the rules does indeed start at the top of the game, but the fact remains that rule enforcement can only be accomplished at the Club level. If the rules are not enforced at our Major events, then it becomes more likely that they will be disregarded at our local events. I believe that more people are swept with loaded firearms at the Loading tables than at any other location on the Firing Line. The LTO is an important position. If another shooter is to be used as a "temporary" LTO, then that person should take the job seriously while doing it. He/she should NOT continue to load their own guns while inspecting others. Just step out of character for the moment, be the LTO and do a proper job of it. Then become a shooter again and let the next person at the LT assume the mantle of LTO. It is NOT as good as having a dedicated LTO, but it is far better than nothing at all, which is what is now happening at far too many matches.

 

Snakebite 

Well said.

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

Of course it is a violation, but I have never seen a shooter at the loading table make a issue of it when the person in front of them loads a handgun, and then sweeps him while holstering it.

 

I've seen it ONCE (at a major match), but it wasn't the swept shooter that made an issue of it.

The LTO observed a shooter sweep the foot of another shooter while holstering a loaded revolver..

The MDQ call was made.

 

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   What is the procedure for someone sweeping somebody before they reach the loading table? How do you handle that, other than ducking and delivering your favorite wrestling move? Say someone takes their long gun from their cart and carries it arm hanging down muzzle pointing straight out. 

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4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

   What is the procedure for someone sweeping somebody before they reach the loading table? How do you handle that, other than ducking and delivering your favorite wrestling move? Say someone takes their long gun from their cart and carries it arm hanging down muzzle pointing straight out. 

What??:o I'd use my Rick Flair double tap ears slap:D

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What’s a LTO?  I’ve never seen one

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

   What is the procedure for someone sweeping somebody before they reach the loading table? How do you handle that, other than ducking and delivering your favorite wrestling move? Say someone takes their long gun from their cart and carries it arm hanging down muzzle pointing straight out. 

Harsh words?

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2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Harsh words?

Have used stern words to no avail. No fun looking straight down the barrel of a rifle. 

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3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Have used stern words to no avail. No fun looking straight down the barrel of a rifle. 

If they're not on the firing line it's a gun club issue.  I would go to the cowboy who is the gun club member/contact and complain, in front of witnesses.

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REF: SHB pp. 12-13 - "PARTICIPANT CONDUCT"

also

p.23 - "STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ)"

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25 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

REF: SHB pp. 12-13 - "PARTICIPANT CONDUCT"

also

p.23 - "STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ)"

Participant conduct doesn't specify a penalty.

 

P. 23 cites 'performance on the course of fire'.  I certainly may be wrong, but my understanding was that those type infractions, not on the course of fire, did not fall under the rules.  For example, if I'm putting my shotgun in the cart after cleaning it, nothing to do with the stage, and I drop it, is that a SDQ?  My understanding is that it's not.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't penalize sweeping someone off the firing line, but I am saying that I'm not sure the rules address that.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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8 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Participant conduct doesn't specify a penalty.

 

P. 23 cites 'performance on the course of fire'.  I certainly my be wrong, but my understanding was that those type infractions, not on the course of fire, did not fall under the rules.  For example, if I'm putting my shotgun in the cart after cleaning it, nothing to do with the stage, and I drop it, is that a SDQ?  My understanding is that it's not.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't penalize sweeping someone off the firing line, but I am saying that I'm not sure the rules address that.

Hence my confusion. Unless I'm wrong instead of confused:ph34r:

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6 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Hence my confusion. Unless I'm wrong instead of confused:ph34r:

I've been both.

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- A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time.

- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.

- A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster.

- Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for a Stage Disqualification penalty assessment, and for repeat offenses, a Match Disqualification penalty.

 

SHB p.18

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39 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.18

To which stage do you apply the penalty? 

When someone gets out of their car and is walking around the range?

When someone sweeps someone between stages?

 

 

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MY observation as I frequently am at the Unloading table is this.....most if not all, shooters are very muzzle conscious bringing their firearms to the loading table, at the loading table and to the firing line.

 

I see muzzle discipline go quite haywire when leaving the firing line and coming to the Unloading table......and usually it is with the shotgun. It seems like there is an attitude internally that "I finished the stage..."Whew!! Gotta go to the Unloading table with my empty guns and show clear" Almost lackadasical in leaving the firing line.  Sort of a "My guns are empty man, I just shot the stage so there can't be a problem"

 

This always changes when there is a malfunctioning firearm with rounds in it.....EXTREME Cautions then shows up!!! Almost like they are carrying Nitro.....

 

Anyone else see that same issue?

 

Bugler

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I do a lot of loading table officer duties.  I give a few suggestions but most of our shooters are experienced and there are few things caught.   At last match I did catch an experienced shooter lower the hammer down on a live round.  I see and have called new guys and experienced guys forget where they are and carry a long gun in a dangerous manner.   Probably the most common infractions is the walking away from the loading table with loaded handguns in their holsters. 

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53 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

  Probably the most common infractions is the walking away from the loading table with loaded handguns in their holsters. 

I do that a lot. And I do it on purpose:ph34r:

 

On the way to the stage

Edited by Tennessee williams
Spilleng
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On 9/11/2019 at 11:30 PM, Snakebite said:

Humm? Seems like I've heard all of this before. 

You did. 

In a thread some time back we were told that a shooter who was a "War Hero" who had been shooting "All his life" was asked to check a revolver at the loading table and replied that anyone who needed someone else to check his guns had no business shooting.

Some of us disagreed, but some people expressed a very assertive resistance to having LTOs.

 

Duffield

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