'Never attempt to dog fight the Zero'

[Chantry]

This is from the official  US Army report from December 1942 where they used a captured Zero and tested against the aircraft available at the time and in the San Diego area.

 

Link to the story: https://www.warbirdforum.com/diego.htm

Link to the actual December 1942 report: https://www.warbirdforum.com/diego.pdf

 

It matches everything I've read in other books, to summarize:  the American pilot should keep their speed above 300 mph and to avoid dog fighting the Zero should use rolls, high speed reversals and power dives.

 

The P-47 was not evaluated, but I would expect the results would be similar to the P-38F due it's very good rate of roll, incredible dive speeds and very good high altitude performance.

[Cypress Sun]

When the opposing plane weighs considerably less (due to lack of pilot/fuel/engine protection) it would be unwise to duel.  A friend of mine flew the Jug (RIP Jerry) in the ETO.....back then, they didn't know that they were approaching the speed of sound during a dive. He told me that the wings shaking, until he got used to it, used to scared the hell out of him. Toward the end of the war, he just dove on them and most of them flew into the ground during evasion maneuvers.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

P-51 was a heck of a Zero killer.

OLG

[Phantom Falcon, SASS # 46139]

Same advice for F4 pilots vs MIGs. Go straight up or straight down and do it VERY fast. Do not do a horizontal fight unless you want to die that day. 

 

PF

 

[DocWard]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

P-51 was a heck of a Zero killer.

OLG

 

The P-51 wasn't in use in the Pacific Theater until late 1944, by which time the Zero was completely obsolete. Against the more advanced Japanese fighters, the Mustang only enjoyed about a 2 to 1 kill ratio.

 

https://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/-/P-51_Mustang.htm

 

Probably the best Zero killer of the war was the F6F Hellcat, although my personal favorite, the P-38 was bad juju to them as well when used on their terms, out climbing, out diving and out running the Zero.
 

https://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/F/6/F6F_Hellcat.htm

 

https://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/-/P-38_Lightning.htm

 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

Don’t forget the AVG learned how to use the P40 very effectively. It’s all in using the tactics tailored to the weakness of your opponent.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Mom who was a WASP, always said the P-51 would kill you faster as the pilot, than any other aircraft the USA had.

She said the P-40 was a very good and stable plane to fly. 

OLG

 

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

I have a buddy whose dad got a Zero with a P-39.  

 

I reckon he was feelin' mighty lucky that day!  

[Utah Bob #35998]

11 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Mom who was a WASP, always said the P-51 would kill you faster as the pilot, than any other aircraft the USA had.

She said the P-40 was a very good and stable plane to fly. 

OLG

 

I heard the P39 was a bear too with that midships mounted engine. Threw the balance off until you got used to it.

[DocWard]

Even with the F4F, the "Thach Weave," developed by then Lt. Commander John Thach, allowed the aircraft to maintain some level of defensive and offensive capability against the Zero.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just now, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I heard the P39 was a bear too with that midships mounted engine. Threw the balance off until you got used to it.

It does have the reputation as being one of the worst AC ever made.

OLG

[DocWard]

2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

It does have the reputation as being one of the worst AC ever made.

OLG

 

Unless you want to bust tanks for Mother Russia!

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Russkies loved the P-39 and downed many Luftwaffe planes in air-to-air combat. Chuck Yeager commented on that in his autobiography when recounting a banquet with Russian pilots after the war. Most of the combat was at low altitude where the P-39 could hold its own in the hands of a good pilot.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

3 hours ago, DocWard said:

Probably the best Zero killer of the war was the F6F Hellcat, although my personal favorite, the P-38 was bad juju to them as well when used on their terms, out climbing, out diving and out running the Zero.

 

In this YouTube documentary on the F4U Corsair a former F4U pilot claimed that the Zero couldn't make right turns very well, and they used it to their advantage. Right around 20:50 in the video:

 

 

[DocWard]

2 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

In this YouTube documentary on the F4U Corsair a former F4U pilot claimed that the Zero couldn't make right turns very well, and they used it to their advantage. Right around 20:50 in the video:

 

 

 

I believe that was based upon the testing of the Zero found in the bog in Alaska that was tested against our aircraft in 1942.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

It does have the reputation as being one of the worst AC ever made.

OLG

 

That was because the Army Air Corp, in exercising their infinite wisdom, decided to be cheap and omit the superchargers that were in the original plans. 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

It does have the reputation as being one of the worst AC ever made.

OLG

Russians loved them almost as much as they loved the Stormovik.

[Trailrider #896]

The F4F-3 Wildcat couldn't outclimb the Zero. But it could sure outrun it in a dive!  The thing that made the Zero so "great" was its light weight.  To keep it light, the bird was made of magnesium allow, had no armor plate to protect the pilot, and had external tanks that couldn't be dropped!  Although it was recognized until much later, "energy management" was the key.  Dive at a Japanese formation, shoot and run like hell!  Then use your speed to zoom climb to altitude again.  The Zero's armament was to be feared, if they hit you with the 20mm canon.  But their other guns were 7.7mm machine guns,  versus 4-6 .50 cal. Brownings.  The other thing was that most of the best Japanese Navy pilots were highly trained.  But once their numbers dwindled, they couldn't replace them fast enough, if at all, whereas the U.S. forces were putting through plenty of fighter pilots.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

2 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

The other thing was that most of the best Japanese Navy pilots were highly trained.  But once their numbers dwindled, they couldn't replace them fast enough, if at all, whereas the U.S. forces were putting through plenty of fighter pilots.

 

The lack of sufficiently-trained replacement pilots is what really doomed the Japanese Navy. It became painfully obvious to them during the "Marianas Turkey Shoot". The few remaining veteran, skilled Japanese pilots were kept at home in Japan trying to train the new ones, and once the US Navy came knocking on Japan's door they finally encountered these older veterans. They easily proved to be more than a match for the US Navy pilots who were mostly accustomed to dealing with rookies.

[Utah Bob #35998]

21 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

It does have the reputation as being one of the worst AC ever made.

OLG

My dad thought it looked cool. He called it a hot rod and said that’s why he joined the Air Forces. Never flew one though.

 

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

... you could take everything I know about air combat and stuff it down into a sewing thimble, and have room enough to pour in a quart of whiskey on top ...

... when I read this thread, I'm reading it with both eyes, and the gears are turning ...

... astigmatism kept me out of the pilot's seat ...

[Capt. James H. Callahan]

My dad fought in the Philippines in WWII, according to him the Zeros wanted no part of the Lightnings.

JHC

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

I read an article a while ago about we will likely never again have an air ace.

[DocWard]

13 hours ago, Capt. James H. Callahan said:

My dad fought in the Philippines in WWII, according to him the Zeros wanted no part of the Lightnings.

JHC

 

 

Quote

Famed Zero ace Saburo Sakai said of the Lightning:

On my first confrontation with the P-38, I was astonished to find an American aircraft that could outrun, outclimb, and outdive our Zero which we thought was the most superior fighter plane in the world. The Lightning's great speed, its sensational high altitude performance, and especially its ability to dive and climb much faster than the Zero presented insuperable problems for our fliers. The P-38 pilots, flying at great height, chose when and where they wanted to fight with disastrous results for our own men. The P-38 boded ill for the future and destroyed the morale of the Zero fighter pilot.