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Texas Jack Daniels

Would you shoot this match?

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Thanks for the PM TJD.  I'm replying here since it will probably get discussed anyway.  You're right!  I forgot the women!  So that makes it 32 categories, but as you mentioned some probably won't fill, so perhaps if you don't have Young/Female/Gunfighter (for example) maybe you eliminate that and replace it with Very Young/Traditional/Male, or Very Old Traditional Male, or whatever you're seeing demand for.   Just my .02, I'll be happy to shoot it however you set it up.

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Let us know when and where.

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Yup, Im there!!  SCJ

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TJD -

 

Glad you mentioned this at Trailhead.  This is a great idea!  The categories you suggested are more than enough.  It's getting so that we have more categories than shooters.  Pretty soon we will be shooting Silver Senior Frontier Cartridge Wild Bunch Cody Dixon Lever Duelist with one person entering for a first place.

 

The other suggestion I have is to run the match Monday through Friday so that the two weekends can be used for travel.  The gives the opportunity for us working stiffs to only take one week off.

 

Keep me posted!

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Posted (edited)
On 2/6/2019 at 10:38 AM, Texas Jack Daniels said:

The awards are serious,  Custom Colts, a jeep, a tricked out golf cart, Dillon 1050, etc., etc. 

A bit scary to see our fun sport slide down the slippery slope toward big prizes.  A good way to put the tense competition skids to all the mutual helpfulness and relaxed friendships that we have now. Just saying.

 

I'd much rather see the prizes given as raffle prizes or something other than shooting awards.  Look what happened in other sports after the cars, trucks, bass boats, and big cash prizes got a foothold. 

 

Sometimes you just don't know what you've got 'till it's gone.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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Hi there,

Thanks for the feedback.  All of this is still in concept and feedback.  I want nicer awards than paper certificates or cheap quality buckles.  Doubt we could actually afford a jeep.

People do want quality awards, door prizes, and raffle items.

Thanks again, I appreciate it.

TJD 

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13 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

A bit scary to see our fun sport slide down the slippery slope toward big prizes.  A good way to put the tense competition skids to all the mutual helpfulness and relaxed friendships that we have now. Just saying.

 

I'd much rather see the prizes given as raffle prizes or something other than shooting awards.  Look what happened in other sports after the cars, trucks, bass boats, and big cash prizes got a foothold. 

 

Sometimes you just don't know what you've got 'till it's gone.  

Do you know what the Prize Table looked like 20+ years ago?  We survived...thrived...

 

We're not talking about big cash...trucks...boats...

 

We're a Shooting Sport. Nothing wrong with occasionally giving out some stellar prizes. Prizes that you could buy with the money one spends traveling/hotel/etc.

 

Phantom

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14 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

A bit scary to see our fun sport slide down the slippery slope toward big prizes.  A good way to put the tense competition skids to all the mutual helpfulness and relaxed friendships that we have now. Just saying.

 

I'd much rather see the prizes given as raffle prizes or something other than shooting awards.  Look what happened in other sports after the cars, trucks, bass boats, and big cash prizes got a foothold. 

 

Sometimes you just don't know what you've got 'till it's gone.  

A one of a kind match like this is not going to put the skids on mutual helpfulness and relaxed friendships, IMHO. There is a major sponsor behind this endeavor and it’s probably how they want to do it.

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Count me in. If it is at Sparta that would be even better. 1000 campsites 12 possible bays. Hosts the Grand every year so capable of handling the event.

MT Pockets

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

We're a Shooting Sport. Nothing wrong with occasionally giving out some stellar prizes. Prizes that you could buy with the money one spends traveling/hotel/etc.

Just watch out for the ugly $$ camel sticking his nose under the tent.  

Enough said. 

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If someone is going to let a prize come between camaraderie/friendships then he’s probably not a Cowboy already.

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On 2/11/2019 at 10:17 AM, Texas Jack Daniels said:

Hi all.  Thanks for the great support.  Here are more thoughts running around in my head. 

 

Judgement Day

The concept was “So, how good are you cowboy?”  So, every firearm is part of the match; derringer, pocket pistol, single shot, rifle caliber.  And every shooting discipline is part of the match traditional, duelist, gunfighter. 

A challenge was made to me once…. How do we get a thousand shooters to a match?  I’ve seen 800 but never a thousand.  SASS has about 35 thousand active members on its books. So that is about 3% or 3 out of every hundred shooters.  Maybe this is the wrong goal.  

All the sidebar stuff is eliminated.  Wild Bunch, side matches, costume contests, poker tournaments.  This is a cowboy action shooting match.  Everybody gets enough sleep.

We are cowboys.  So, no starched jeans, button down shirt, boots, and a hat. Full on classic cowboy dress. 

How many categories?  I am not sure.  Depends on the ages of the shooters, whether or not we have black powder, etc.  I will do a survey as soon as I figure out how to use Survey Monkey.

Where should we hold the match?  Depends on where the participants live, I think.  Find the range closest to most of them.  Or the question might end up being; “What ranges are available?”  I heard Sparta could handle a match of this size.  Two really great ranges have already expressed interest. 

One thought I had was Sparta, if it is still there.  Get 20 clubs to each design and bring in 1 stage and set it up and run it.  This worked once before on a smaller scale.

If you ever shot OWSA at Raton; that was 8 stages a day for 4 days.  32 stages.  Not many people shot the match, the targets were small, stages difficult.  Lots of walking. The match died.

What sort of awards should we have?  Are buckles enough?  How about firearms? or reloaders? or a golf cart? or….?

Is media coverage good?  You betcha.  What does it take to get Jim Scoutten to cover us?  How about national news?

And vendors.  Yep, we need vendors.  Charging them a fee never incents them.  Having a thousand shooters will. 

We will need funds.  Should we charge an entry fee?  Can we get enough funds from our sponsors to cover expenses?  What if we charge a fee and, if you show up, we give it back to you? 

Sponsors?  Yep,  need them a lot.  How do we get sponsors with deep enough pockets to fund this?  What will motivate a sponsor.  Shooters……  Yep, a thousand shooters,  and media coverage.  Sponsors need ROI. 

Need  a web designer.  Need marketing team.  Must promote and advertise.  Lot’s to do.

Why only 4 stages a day? Commancheria Days used to be 8 a day.  Every survey I’ve ever done said 5 was a good number.  6 didn’t leave enough time to socialize. If the range has 20 physical stages then each posse shoots 4 a day, each posse has 25 on a posse.  That’s 500 shooters, 3 waves a day for 1,500 maximum shooters.  If the range has 12 physical stages then each posse shoots 4 a day, each posse has 25 on a posse.  That’s 300 shooters, 3 waves a day for 900 maximum shooters.  Maybe 10 physical stages and the second 2 days are all new stages.

Camping?  That’s a lot of campers.  Parking for a thousand cars, or more…… 

How do we score this?  Total time.  Every shooter gets a secret number.  Every day times are posed using only the secret number as an identifier.  Nobody gets to look up someone else’s scores unless that person reveals their secret number.    

As you can tell I have been thinking about this a lot.  I am a strong SASS supporter.  I’d love to be able to pull this off.  We will need a team to do it.   I am serious about this.    My target date is fall of 2020.

If B-Western attire is out I'd have to buy some clothes.

 

Randy

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Posted (edited)
On 3/29/2019 at 7:52 PM, Yul Lose said:

A one of a kind match like this is not going to put the skids on mutual helpfulness and relaxed friendships, IMHO.

Big prizes have done exactly that in other tournament sports.  They experienced profound cheating, doping, arguments, physical fights, decision appeals/challenges and even lawsuits.  

 

This kind of match would be fun in its own right, for sure, and the week itself would be even more fun.  But I will stick with my original concern that if big prizes are offered, it would be best for them to be non-tournament related, such as raffles - - possibly with extra raffle tickets being given to winning shooters.  

 

The reputation of the match will come from having great stage designs, tough competition, good officiating, and good fun,  not necessarily just from its list of big shooter prizes.   

 

And the draw to the match will probably be broader with big raffle prizes accessible to any competitor, than with huge shooting prizes that are really accessible only to a few of the top shooters.  If all you are looking for is publicity from participation by the top shooters, then the big prizes will likely accomplish that.   So make a thoughtful choice.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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I appreciate all the feedback.  I have no idea what a big prize would be. It won't be paper certificate, made in China belt buckle, or Olympic medal out of a cracker Jack's box.  I seriously doubt I get enough funds for jeeps, hummers, and pickup trucks.  I am hoping for awesome door prizes, great raffle items and winners prizes you will be proud of.

Sincerely,

TJD

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2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Big prizes have done exactly that in other tournament sports.  They experienced profound cheating, doping, arguments, physical fights, decision appeals/challenges and even lawsuits.  

 

This kind of match would be fun in its own right, for sure, and the week itself would be even more fun.  But I will stick with my original concern that if big prizes are offered, it would be best for them to be non-tournament related, such as raffles - - possibly with extra raffle tickets being given to winning shooters.  

 

The reputation of the match will come from having great stage designs, tough competition, good officiating, and good fun,  not necessarily just from its list of big shooter prizes.   

 

And the draw to the match will probably be broader with big raffle prizes accessible to any competitor, than with huge shooting prizes that are really accessible only to a few of the top shooters.  If all you are looking for is publicity from participation by the top shooters, then the big prizes will likely accomplish that.   So make a thoughtful choice.  

I guess we can agree to disagree.

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4 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Big prizes have done exactly that in other tournament sports.  They experienced profound cheating, doping, arguments, physical fights, decision appeals/challenges and even lawsuits.  

 

This kind of match would be fun in its own right, for sure, and the week itself would be even more fun.  But I will stick with my original concern that if big prizes are offered, it would be best for them to be non-tournament related, such as raffles - - possibly with extra raffle tickets being given to winning shooters.  

 

The reputation of the match will come from having great stage designs, tough competition, good officiating, and good fun,  not necessarily just from its list of big shooter prizes.   

 

And the draw to the match will probably be broader with big raffle prizes accessible to any competitor, than with huge shooting prizes that are really accessible only to a few of the top shooters.  If all you are looking for is publicity from participation by the top shooters, then the big prizes will likely accomplish that.   So make a thoughtful choice.  

Do you think that those that have been in this game for awhile haven't dealt with this question before??

 

Big prizes didn't ruin this game back in the 90's...

 

TJD, the idea sounds like a lot of fun! The "Big" awards sound great!! I mean yer still not giving away a fricken a Cadillac:lol: so I'm sure we Cowboys/Cowgirls will not get all cutthroat over them.

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Would I do that Hell yes

I use to shoot at the NRA Whittington center

Shootout on the Santa Fe Trail 

32 stages 8 stages per day plus all the side events

Did that for about 10 years, drove 1800 miles from Canada, two days of hard driving.

one of the best shoots ever, I am sure the Whittington center could accommodate this event again.

Lefty

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3 hours ago, Yul Lose said:
6 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

I guess we can agree to disagree

Fair 'nuff.  You make some good points.   But I just don't want to see our sport degenerate from the fun we have in it now into one where promoters and competitors are there only to make a buck or drive home in a new rig.    

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17 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Fair 'nuff.  You make some good points.   But I just don't want to see our sport degenerate from the fun we have in it now into one where promoters and competitors are there only to make a buck or drive home in a new rig.    

You make some good points also but, IMNSHO, a one time match such as this should have some big prizes for the top shooters. A piece of wood or a belt buckle ain’t the same as a new rifle, pistol, gunnleather or whatever because you were the top shooter in your class and it would, in my opinion also really attract the top shooters. I’m at the bottom of most score sheets but I’ll be at this match if they have it because the opportunity to see some of the legends of our game perform in a match like this would be priceless. Just think about the potential if there was more of an incentive than bragging rights maybe Bud and Lead Dispenser or others that don’t play the game anymore could be coaxed out of retirement. I don’t see a match like this as a bad thing for our sport but maybe a good way to garner more interest, exposure and possibly more new shooters and if I’m not mistaken that was the original intent in putting something like this together. 

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If you can get enough money or big prizes from sponsers to award to the top finishers, along with other expenses, it can work. If the money and prizes are dependent on raising the match fee per shooter to a high amount, it's a tougher sell.

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Last time I checked, Sparta had not completed a long range bay that would go 75 to 100 yard. The bays are good (12) but not all setup for cowboy any more.

It is for rent by the state of Illinois for ANYBODY willing to pay the fee. It use to be about $3-$4 per shooter per day and the camping is a separate fee.

If you contact the range, they would work with you to put on the event and you would have to talk to the local clubs about help, I am a member of the one at Sparta but it would take more than just the group there.

 

I would like to know if B-Western would be included as I got rid of all my cowboy stuff that would rate good enough for classic cowboy.

I would love to shoot a match like this.

 

If you need some help. Feel free to contact me.

 

Maddog  McCoy

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I've been thinking about the big money thing... Truly pondering how I would behave...

 

The sad truth is that I would grind up anyone in a chipper and feed them to my young just to win a $500 gun.

 

Kinda pains me to admit this...

 

Phantom

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15 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I've been thinking about the big money thing... Truly pondering how I would behave...

 

The sad truth is that I would grind up anyone in a chipper and feed them to my young just to win a $500 gun.

 

Kinda pains me to admit this...

 

Phantom

We have gotta be related......:lol:

OLG

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On 3/30/2019 at 6:24 PM, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

If B-Western attire is out I'd have to buy some clothes.

 

Randy

TJD, thanks for the PM.

 

Randy

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2 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

but maybe a good way to garner more interest, exposure and possibly more new shooters and if I’m not mistaken that was the original intent in putting something like this together. 

Beware of whom you attract seeking  the big prizes.  You might not like associating or competing with them as much.  

The clubs and folks I associate with all joke together about not winning the Cadillac.  If there ever is really a Cadillac, I think a very different crowd will start showing up, with a very different intensity and demeanor.  

Time alone will tell.  Good luck with your event.  Hope I am totally wrong about human nature and big prizes.  

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Beware of whom you attract seeking  the big prizes.  You might not like associating or competing with them as much.  

The clubs and folks I associate with all joke together about not winning the Cadillac.  If there ever is really a Cadillac, I think a very different crowd will start showing up, with a very different intensity and demeanor.  

Time alone will tell.  Good luck with your event.  Hope I am totally wrong about human nature and big prizes.  

 

 

First off, I think your premise that these prizes are "Big" is way off base.

 

Secondly, I competed numerous times in Western 3-Gun for money and prizes and we had a BLAST! 

 

oy...

 

Phantom

 

Go get it done TJD!!!!!!!

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Hi everyone,

 

I have someone designing a web site to pass out information and I am also putting together a survey.  Please, hang tight......

 

First off, this will go nowhere if the SASS main office comes back and says they will not support this type of match at all.  The last thing I need is to get all this started and have SASS come out and say they not only don't support but actively are against this.  What I am hoping for is diversification that helps our sport grow;  just as Wild Bunch did.  If you aren't keeping track, match fees go up and attendance keeps going down year over year.  

 

Also about big prizes.....  When I ran the Daggers and Derringers Soiled Dove and Parlor House madam contest I gave away a Bond derringers to the two winners and custom Damascus Red Wing Daggers to second and Third place.  I paid for these myself, I got a great price thanks to Bond, Taylors and Company, Cimarron, Red Wing, but I still paid for these.  The very last year of the event we raised $10k for the SASS scholarship fund by raffling off other derringers, rifles, shotguns,.....  So, I am a fan of quality prizes and quality raffle items.  Nor do I want to turn this into an IPSC match.  I want a lot of people to attend.  A lot of people to get to shoot every day for a week.  A lot of people to have a good time.

 

So my idea about "big prizes" are; 1873 rifles, a pair of pistols, a shotgun, derringer, maybe a leather rig, ....   Also high quality belt buckles.  I am also looking for you all to post here what you think a high quality prize should or could be. I see the complaints but not a lot of suggestions.  Please provide constructive feedback that will help us plan an awesome match.  (This is a match for all of us, not me)  I have been playing this game over 25 years.  I have received over the years; paper certificates for 1st place, cheap belt buckles, little Olympic medals, dime store trophies.  And I have also received; an awesome breakdown cleaning rod (Comin Back at Cha), A great range bag (Winter Range), Gun bags, squib rods, Well crafted trophies (EoT), Gorgeous Belt Buckles (EoT and Comin Back at Cha).  I've seen door prizes where you get a ticket to enter a raffle and door prizes where everybody get one.  And matches where they did both.

 

What do you all want for door prizes, raffle prizes, match awards?   Please let me know.  

 

I will keep everyone posted as we go along. 

 

Sincerely,

TJD 

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It would be pretty awesome to have complete action jobs already done on the guns to be given away.

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Awaiting, when, where, keep us all posted pilgrim.

 

Jackrabbit Joe

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First of all, TJD, thank you for thinking out of the box and starting this thing off. I believe a match like this would be very well attended and has the potential of giving SASS a huge boost in popularity and exposure. 

 

Top shooters prizes:

 

            Tuned, shortstroked firearms

             Full leather gear, belt, holsters, etc.. from top makers

             Shiloh or CSharps rifle

              Bond Arms derringer

              Custom made knife

               Reloader

               Boots

               Buffalo coat

               

 

Raffle prizes:

 

            Gun cart

            Firearms

             Leather gear

             Knives

             Brass

             Bullets

              Primers

              Powder

              Gift cards

              Instructional opportunity with top shooters

              EOT match entry 

              WR match entry 

 

I’m sure there are a lot of folks willing to donate prizes to the match.

 

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18 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Big prizes didn't ruin this game back in the 90's...

 

What were the big prizes? Who was giving them out?

Were these big prizes for the winners or raffle/door prizes?

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1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

What were the big prizes? Who was giving them out?

Were these big prizes for the winners or raffle/door prizes?

Guns of all kinds... Pretty much everything under the sun...Colts...

 

Sponsors

 

Both prizes and raffles

 

It was before my involvement, but the stories were told to me by those that were there. We'd be at an annual and they'd tell me about the ridiculously large prize tables back in the day.

 

Phantom

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I know some of the bigger matches would have several gun giveaways, but as raffle/door prizes, not match awards. It is appealing to have a chance at a gun no matter how you finish. I have seen lots of em given away (I never win anything big). Winter Range has nice prizes for winners and several very nice raffle prizes.

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1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I know some of the bigger matches would have several gun giveaways, but as raffle/door prizes, not match awards. It is appealing to have a chance at a gun no matter how you finish. I have seen lots of em given away (I never win anything big). Winter Range has nice prizes for winners and several very nice raffle prizes.

Off the top of me head, I believe that the EOT winners for Colts... Back in the day. 

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