Marshal Fire, SASS 10064 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Ran into a problem with a recent firearm purchase on the wire. I agreed to purchase a long gun and the seller a private party said that he wanted a copy of the FFL that would be receiving the gun. The FFL holder I deal with has told me that ATF now advises not to send a copy to any private party as there have been issues with misuse of copies. The FFL I use will provide his mailing information and the numbers to confirm his FFL via the ATF web site. On my deal the seller (private party) said he would not ship the rifle without a copy of the FFL. Oh well the deal was not meant to be but and he will sell to another person. In looking at the various web sites I see many comments that FFL holders have been instructed by ATF that best business practice is to only provide a copy of an FFL to another FFL as is required by the ATF. I suspect others here on the wire have encountered this same wrinkle in purchasing a gun. Private parties may ask for a FFL but it seems that many will not provide a copy to private individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucker McNeely Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Marshal, Look up the regulations for private party shipping long guns. I recently sent a shotgun in the mail to a gunsmith in Texas from Nebraska. My postmaster didn’t care that it was a shotgun, only that no markings indicated that it was a gun. And yes, I was up front with the PM that it was a gun and she didn’t care. I’m not an FFL, but maybe the receiving post office required the FFL to provide proof or is used to receiving guns for Ryan from private parties. Tucker BTW, good job on the Regional Frontiersman. Maybe next year I can bring some competition for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Fire, SASS 10064 Posted September 22, 2018 Author Share Posted September 22, 2018 Thanks Tucker I have shipped many guns via USPS with no issues to a FFL. It is not a requirement of the USPS to have a hard copy of the FFL. In my case the seller a private party refused ship it to a FFL unless he had a hard copy of the FFL. With out a hard copy of the FFL he refused to sell the gun to me. His choice but not a requirement of the law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Marshal, Per your instructions on our current transaction I was able to confirm the receiving FFL holders info, I am ready to ship the firearm in question via UPS. I have had the best luck going to a UPS customer service center not one of their franchise operations. Most local post office people don't even know their own rules. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 I'd tell the seller to go pound sand. We don't release a copy of our licence to non-licensees. Oy!! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Fire, SASS 10064 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 Phantom, I did tell the seller of the gun that he is not required to have a hard copy of the FFL to ship. It was his choice not to ship and we parted ways. I had checked with some of my ATF contacts and they confirmed that they recommend that copies of a FFL only be provided to fellow FFL holders. That recommendation does make sense to me with the ability to alter paperwork with computers if I had FFL I would not want to risk it falling into the hands of someone who would misuse it. I guess I am lucky as I have never had an issue with my local Post Office. The first time I shipped a gun I provided a copy of the rules to the service desk and they agreed that we were following the law. Never an issue. Had questions asked at the local UPS station. So I guess it just depends on who is across the counter from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Tell him anybody can fake an FFL license but the list at the Federal website cannot be faked, and is more reliable. He is living in the past if he insists on a paper FFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I'd tell the seller to go pound sand. We don't release a copy of our licence to non-licensees. Oy!! Phantom So how should a non-licensee ship firearms to a licensed dealer? How would they verify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Fire, SASS 10064 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 ATF has a web site. Using the site you can confirm a ffl as current and confirm address. It is called ez check. I have provided the required ffl numbers to a seller and they input the numbers to confirm I did that with this recent seller but he chose not to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Interesting, I am aware of several dealers that have their ffl as a download right on their website so folks buying can send it right to the seller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Hedley Lamarr, SASS #14478 Life said: Interesting, I am aware of several dealers that have their ffl as a download right on their website so folks buying can send it right to the seller. To each their own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I'd tell the seller to go pound sand. We don't release a copy of our licence to non-licensees. Oy!! Phantom +1000 We have worked too hard and for too many years (my shop has been in business for 18 years) to stupidly provide copies of our FFL to non licensees. A dealer sending or receiving a firearm requires a copy to support their entries in their A&D logs. A non licensee is not required to have an A&D and therefore beyond confirming the legality of their transfer has no need for a paper document. For non licensees; the ez check system is more than sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 13 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said: So how should a non-licensee ship firearms to a licensed dealer? How would they verify? USPS, UPS and FedX have the BATFE data base for current FFLs in their data base, and it shows such when the delivery address is entered. I have never had any issue shipping to a FFL, and I'm not a FFL OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 20 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said: So how should a non-licensee ship firearms to a licensed dealer? How would they verify? Get the FFL's license # punch it in here, https://fflezcheck.atf.gov/fflezcheck/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinpan McGurk Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 GunBroker "Firearms Shipping Guide'" says If you do not have a Federal Firearms License: "Before you ship a gun, the buyer must fax or mail you a copy of the dealer's signed FFL license. You can only ship the gun to the address on the license. You should take the copy of the signed FFL with you when you take the item to be shipped in case the shipper wants to see it." The wording is interesting in that they use the word "must" which implies that it is a requirement...but maybe not?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Tinpan McGurk said: GunBroker "Firearms Shipping Guide'" says If you do not have a Federal Firearms License: "Before you ship a gun, the buyer must fax or mail you a copy of the dealer's signed FFL license. You can only ship the gun to the address on the license. You should take the copy of the signed FFL with you when you take the item to be shipped in case the shipper wants to see it." The wording is interesting in that they use the word "must" which implies that it is a requirement...but maybe not?? CYA for GB is all....... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinpan McGurk Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Could be... here is another bit of info from a site How to Mail Guns (Legally and Without Going to Jail): Regardless of which carrier ships your firearm, all require that you: Present appropriate personal identification and paperwork. This includes documentation proving your age as well as your recipient’s suitability or license to receive the firearm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Maybe some of you should just go out and get an FFL... Rather than believe all the crap on the internet. Geeze... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grass Range #51406 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 13 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Maybe some of you should just go out and get an FFL... Rather than believe all the crap on the internet. Geeze... Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
July Smith Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Shipping as an individual I usually just ask for the dealer's short number and then verify it myself on the ATF's FFLeZCheck website. Even if I do get a copy of the FFL I still double check it on the ATF website just to make sure it has not had the address photoshopped to somebodies personal residence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 18 hours ago, Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485 said: Get the FFL's license # punch it in here, https://fflezcheck.atf.gov/fflezcheck/ The answer is right here folks. You are simply required to verify that you are shipping to an FFL which is exactly what this website, which is provided by the BATF, allows you to do. As has already been pointed out, anyone with a scanner can ultimately make a fake FFL. There's no faking out the website. I guess I should point out that there are FFL holders out there who are ignorant of what is required and will insist on a copy of another FFL holder's license. My suggestion is to only deal with FFL holders who have an open mind and are willing to read the requirements instead of continuing to act on what Joe Blow told them eons ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Fire, SASS 10064 Posted September 24, 2018 Author Share Posted September 24, 2018 Buck D Law As I understand the current law when a gun goes from ffl to ffl they are required to have a copy of the senders FFL for their records. when a private party ships a firearm to a ffl the shipping party does not need a copy of the FFL. What ATF recommends is a private party shipping a gun go to the ez check web site and confirm the license status and address of the FFL receiving the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Lone Rider Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 Usually a non FFL shipping a firearm to a FFL will include a copy of their drivers license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 29 minutes ago, Lone Rider, SASS# 73063 said: Usually a non FFL shipping a firearm to a FFL will include a copy of their drivers license. No requirement for that. I have never been ask'd for it either. All the FFL's that I know, exchange their FFL info via FAX. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: No requirement for that. I have never been ask'd for it either. All the FFL's that I know, exchange their FFL info via FAX. OLG If we are receiving a firearm from a non-licensee, we require a copy of a valid government issued photo ID with current address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: No requirement for that. I have never been ask'd for it either. All the FFL's that I know, exchange their FFL info via FAX. OLG Fax machines have gone the way of the Dodo. FFL’s emailed as attachments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 14 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: If we are receiving a firearm from a non-licensee, we require a copy of a valid government issued photo ID with current address. Interesting. Can that be Emailed, or does it have to be included with the shipment? I have never been asked for such, when I have shipped a firearm. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 14 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said: Fax machines have gone the way of the Dodo. FFL’s emailed as attachments Wife works for Northrup/Grumman(security) and tells me that FAX is the preferred way to transmit classified documents and such. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Interesting. Can that be Emailed, or does it have to be included with the shipment? I have never been asked for such, when I have shipped a firearm. OLG The FFL's that I have dealt with prefer the non-ffl to include a copy with the firearm(s). A couple I have had to call and get it emailed though, so those 2 will accept an email. The couple here in my small town want the ID in the package so they can put it in their log book if I can't pick it up in a timely fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 37 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Wife works for Northrup/Grumman(security) and tells me that FAX is the preferred way to transmit classified documents and such. OLG We still have the relic at work. We get warrants and other court documents as well as rap sheets via fax. Some crooks take our paper budget to the limit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Lone Rider Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 16 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: No requirement for that. I have never been ask'd for it either. All the FFL's that I know, exchange their FFL info via FAX. OLG Since my name is on the FFL, I want something valid to put in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 Understand the bookkeeping deal and that BATFE has no heart when it comes to mistakes. The last 3 times I shipped guns out. They went to the maker for work(they're my gunz). They went to- Freedom Arms, Glock and Ruger. Never was asked to include any form of ID. Did include a work order and my contact info. Maybe, the warranty card they had on file was the reason I wasn't ask'd. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Understand the bookkeeping deal and that BATFE has no heart when it comes to mistakes. The last 3 times I shipped guns out. They went to the maker for work(they're my gunz). They went to- Freedom Arms, Glock and Ruger. Never was asked to include any form of ID. Did include a work order and my contact info. Maybe, the warranty card they had on file was the reason I wasn't ask'd. OLG That different. I ain't logging a ghost into our Bound Book... Send ID via any method is a o-kay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Lone Rider Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Understand the bookkeeping deal and that BATFE has no heart when it comes to mistakes. The last 3 times I shipped guns out. They went to the maker for work(they're my gunz). They went to- Freedom Arms, Glock and Ruger. Never was asked to include any form of ID. Did include a work order and my contact info. Maybe, the warranty card they had on file was the reason I wasn't ask'd. OLG An individual shipping to a manufacturer or to a gunsmith does not fall under the same criteria as an individual selling a gun and shipping to a FFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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