Resizing die sheering brass on the down stroke.

[Cholla]

I just bought a Colt clone in .45 LC, so I am getting back into reloading the .45 Long Colt. I pulled my RCBS carbide resizing die out of mothballs but within twenty shells it started pulling brass off. I pulled the die and looked inside. I don't see anything but I cleaned it anyway. I went back to resizing and it kept doing it. It seems to be doing it on the down stroke, as the brass is being pulled back out of the die. It has been 15 years but I believe I am using the correct resizing die. It is stamped .45 Colt. 

Anyone else had this issue before? It's almost the shell is being pulled slightly at an angle, allowing it to dig in on the carbide insert.

[Yusta B.]

Did you tumble or deburr the brass if it is new ? 

[Cholla]

6 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Did you tumble or deburr the brass if it is new ? 

They are all used. I ran them through my vibratory cleaner.

 

[Yusta B.]

What kind of loader ? Did you try a different shell holder or carefully check the existing one ? I'm just throwing stones in the river here. Any chance the carbide ring is loose/cocked ?

[Nickel City Dude]

Did you lube the cases before you sized them?  More rocks in the river here.

[Sedalia Dave]

If you are loading on a progressive or turret press is the shell plate properly aligned with the die?

 

Is the shell plate tight or bent?

 

For a single stage is anything bent or cracked? Inspect it while under tension.

[Roscoe Regulator]

What is the size of the cases that came out free?

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Throw it away.  Start with a new one.  Something has scored the inside of your die.  It's best to lube the cases even with a carbide die.  Dillon Case Lube, One Shot, etc.

 

PS:  There is no such thing as 45 Long Colt.  It's just "45 Colt"

[Cholla]

24 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

What kind of loader ? Orange Crusher single press with RCBS dies.

Did you try a different shell holder or carefully check the existing one ? It is the only one I have for .45 LC and it looks fine, and it is the correct holder according to the RCBS website.

Any chance the carbide ring is loose/cocked ? It doesn't seem to be, but who knows?

3

 

[Cholla]

15 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said:

Did you lube the cases before you sized them?  More rocks in the river here.

No, it is a carbide die.

[Eyesa Horg]

Lube em anyway, much easier on you and the machine/brass. I was given some old brass when I started that had been reloaded without lube and there was an actual burr near the case head from the sizing die. Many failed my  case gauge and to carefully file off the burr. I made my lube with lanolin and it seems identical to the Dillon stuff and works great.

1 part lanolin to 12 parts 99% isopropyl alcohol. ( Red bottle "HEET" in auto dept.) You can make 48oz. for the price of one 8 oz. bottle of Dillon.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Are you sure the case is not making contact with somedangthing inside the die?

That contact could well be deforming the case.

Yes- lubing the case can/will help with Carbide insert dies.

OLG

[Too Tall Bob]

Try resizing with the decapping pin assy. removed. Flush the die out with brake cleaner and scrub it out with a nylon bottle brush. Lube some cases and try it again. If it still damages cases with the decapping assy. removed you should get a new sizing die.  If it doesn’t damage anything put the decapping assy. back in and try some more. Also have you tried replacing the shell holder on your press?  If that gets dinged or bent it will cause issues as well. 

 

Some more stones in the river. 

 

Good luck....

TTB

[Cholla]

I have some RCBS case lube.

 

I have been trying to figure out what is going on since my last post. Without another press to compare to, I have no way of knowing if this is normal or not.

 

The ram has .012" of wobble at the top of the stroke. The cases seem to be at a slight angle no matter if I'm using the .38 or .45 shell holder and dies. The case never lines up exactly with the die opening and it always moves over slightly to match the bell opening of the die. In the 35 years I have owned the press I have always had to assist the cases going in at times, so I assumed that was the nature of the beast.

 

On the .45 dies, there is less of a bell so at times the case hits and I have to manually hold it over to guide it in. If I measure down to the top of the ram with a die or shell holder in place the face of the ram is about .008" higher on one side over the other.

 

The scraping of the brass is only on one side, the side opposite of the way the case seems to lean. My theory is that since the case is leaning left and is forced back right, as the case is extracted the upper right side of the carbide catches and shaves some brass off.

 

My cure is to buy a new Dillon 550C as soon as I can make enough donations at the plasma center to afford it.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Put a rubber 'O' ring under the die, and just 'snug' it down in the press.

Make sure the is a slight gap(credit card thickness)between the shell holder and the bottom of the die, when the ram is fully extended.

OLG

[Cholla]

45 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Put a rubber 'O' ring under the die, and just 'snug' it down in the press.

Make sure the is a slight gap(credit card thickness)between the shell holder and the bottom of the die, when the ram is fully extended.

OLG

I give that a try after I go by Ace Hardware to find an o-ring. Thanks.

 

UPDATE: The case lube did not help.

[Cholla]

The mystery has kind of been solved. I have been carefully making my way through the cases I cleaned and I discovered a clue. The ONLY cases I have been having issues with are HRTRS, which seem to be Herters, which seem to come from overseas and is sold by Cabelas. The info I found also claims that the primer pockets will most likely need to be swaged. In 150 rounds the Winchester, Starline, and other brands size without an issue. It is only the HRTRS. I have no idea why as they all appear to be the same size before I size them. Perhaps the HRTRS brass has a different alloy content.

But, until I have a way to deal with it, the HRTRS brass is being set aside.

Thanks for everyone's input.

[Michigan Slim]

I'm a ways away from you but if you want to come up to Fort Wayne and see our setup your more than welcome. Bring that Herters brass and we can see if it runs through my Dillon.

[John Boy]

Paako, remove FL sizing die decapper pin > put an unsized lubed  HRTR case in the die and resize the case to determine if the case is galled

The thought is ... the decapper is your issue possibly with the pin jammed up in the primer pocket on the up stroke.  If so, you might try shortening the stroke of the die from the shell holder so the die just touches the shell holder with the decapper reinstalled in the die

http://rcbs.com/Resources/Introduction-to-Handloading/Step-by-Step-Reloading.aspx

Quote

Note: If you’re using a carbide sizer die, leave a 1/16” gap between the bottom of the die and the shell holder.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

HRTRS headstamp is indeed an abbreviation for Herter's, which now has been bought out by Cabelas, so of course they are selling off the old stock. 

 

Your picture indicates you may have a galled sizing die.  Get another carbide sizing die!  RCBS customer support will probably replace that die for you, possibly at no charge.  They will certainly sell an individual die, whereas a retailer (gun shop) won't want to break up a set.    

 

No, this is not a common problem.  You have a bad die.  I can reload Herter's brass if I pay attention to the tight primer pockets.  I try to catch them before loading even the first time, and use a Dillon primer pocket swager on the pockets to get them enlarged to the standard US primer pocket diameter.

 

I have heard a rumor that Herters was having their brass made by Sellier and Bellot, a Czech Republic company, which is famous for making brass with tight primer pockets, which is apparently the European standard.

 

Now, taking a close look at your photo, the decapping stem is not well centered in the die mouth.  MAke sure you follow instructions that came with your die about leaving the stem slightly loose (not tightening the lock nut) until you have a case run up into the die.  Then tighten the lock nut to hold the stem well centered.   I doubt this is the root cause of your problem, but it does pay to do things according to the instructions with your dies.

 

Good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Any update?

OLG

[Cholla]

5 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Any update?

OLG

I tried everything. I put the o-ring on. No change.

I pulled the decapper pin and sized with lube. No change.

 

I ran another 150 cases through tonight, all non-HRTRS brand. All ran just fine. I ran a HRTRS case through and it swaged/sheered brass off. I ran the same case through again, and it took more brass off. I took a fresh HRTRS case and eased down a quarter of the way and pulled it back out. No issues. I ran it down half-way and back out with no issues. It's only when the HRTRS case is resized all the way down that it takes brass off.

At this point I don't care. All of the other cases run just fine. I'll just set the HRTRS cases aside until I find more data on what's going on.

 

It is odd that all of the cases, HRTRS and non-HRTRS, mic roughly the same before sizing, and mic the same as each other after sizing. So, the brass is reacting the same as far as sizing.

 

Again, thanks for the input.

[Sedalia Dave]

Could be that the Herters cases are not really brass. Maybe some cheaper alloy.

[John Boy]

Paako - did you reset the RCBS die according to the RCBS Manual instructions?

Quote

In 150 rounds the Winchester, Starline, and other brands size without an issue  It's only when the HRTRS case is resized all the way down that it takes brass off.

OK, the Herters cases shaving brass at the web.  I'm gonna guess that you  bought them once fired, also the other brands. and the throats on the gun the Herters were shot in were wider dimensions at the web.  I had the same issue with once fired 300 Win Mags I bought - the FL die shaved brass on every one at the web. I chambered them and shot them with no issues.  Doing the same is up to you

[Fast Tracker]

If the other suggestions don't pan out, the problem might be in the brass rather than the die.

Does the shaving always take place on the same side of the die? If it doesnt, could the rims be slightly off center? There might be enough play in the shell holder when starting the ram up that the shaving doesn't happen, but as you get closer to the shell holder there is not enough play to make up for being off center.

Good luck.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The Herters brass was probably loaded with VERY hot loads and it expanded the bottom part of the case right above the rim.  Section of case called the web.

The sizer die probably has a rough spot on the top edge of the carbide insert.   That catches on the expanded web and shaves off brass filings.    Looking again at your picture, I see what looks like a deformed (almost wrinkled) section of the carbide ring where the light catches on it.  Maybe that is just the lighting in the pic.  But since you are scraping off brass as the case is pulled out of the die (on the ram's downstroke), I would sure examine that die more closely.

 

I second your thoughts of setting the Herters brass off to the side, in fact, I'd set if far enough off to the side that it falls into the scrap brass box!

 

 

(Everett Hitch vocabulary mode on)

The word you are trying to spell is SHEARED.  Sheer is something thin or light enough to see through.  And sheer is an adjective, not a verb.

 

The word you NEED is SHAVED.  You are shaving brass off one side of case.  IF you were really shearing the case, you would be breaking it off at the tight spot due to some sort of sideways force.  And you would not be able to size that case a second time.   And we'd be talking about how to remove a chunk of stuck case out of a sizer die.  

 

(vocabulary off)

 

Quote

Could be that the Herters cases are not really brass

 

Umm, no.   It wouldn't have brass shavings in the die if the cases were steel or aluminum or plated "something or other."

 

Cartridge brass is pretty consistently cartridge brass. 

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

14 hours ago, Paako Hunter said:

I tried everything. I put the o-ring on. No change.

I pulled the decapper pin and sized with lube. No change.

 

I ran another 150 cases through tonight, all non-HRTRS brand. All ran just fine. I ran a HRTRS case through and it swaged/sheered brass off. I ran the same case through again, and it took more brass off. I took a fresh HRTRS case and eased down a quarter of the way and pulled it back out. No issues. I ran it down half-way and back out with no issues. It's only when the HRTRS case is resized all the way down that it takes brass off.

At this point I don't care. All of the other cases run just fine. I'll just set the HRTRS cases aside until I find more data on what's going on.

 

It is odd that all of the cases, HRTRS and non-HRTRS, mic roughly the same before sizing, and mic the same as each other after sizing. So, the brass is reacting the same as far as sizing.

 

Again, thanks for the input.

I suggest you send that picture of the die to a RCBS  CS tech, and I'll bet you. RCBS will have a new die sent out to you.

PLZ call RCBS to get this fixed.

Keep us posted.

OLG

[Cholla]

I already ordered a new die set before this all started. Somehow I lost the rest of the set to the one I have in the move ten years ago. I'm sure I'll find them someday. 

I did contact RCBS customer service and I'm waiting to hear back.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Measure the case just above the bottom rim.

Then up 1/8" from the rim.

Then again 1/4" above the rim.

-------------

Also, when you look at the case before sizing can you see where the case wall transitions to the solid bottom of the case?

Fired in an over sized chamber will cause the case to expand out past the solid base.

Have these cases been fired in your guns or are they fired brass your have acquired?

 

If the case wall is wider than the solid bottom, the sizing die will cut the case as it resizes it to the size of the solid base.

This will weaken the case and at times be so weak that on the up strike the case will separate from the base.

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I find it better in these cases, to make a phone call and deal with a warm body.

OLG

[Cholla]

1 hour ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

Measure the case just above the bottom rim.

Then up 1/8" from the rim.

Then again 1/4" above the rim.

-------------

Also, when you look at the case before sizing can you see where the case wall transitions to the solid bottom of the case?

Fired in an over sized chamber will cause the case to expand out past the solid base.

Have these cases been fired in your guns or are they fired brass your have acquired?

 

If the case wall is wider than the solid bottom, the sizing die will cut the case as it resizes it to the size of the solid base.

This will weaken the case and at times be so weak that on the up strike the case will separate from the base.

 

 

I measured the cases. They are no different in size anywhere when compared to the Winchester and Starline in the same lot. As I said earlier, I can take a HRTRS case I already resized, de-primed, and measured to make sure it is keeping the same size as other brass, and run it through again, and it shaves even more off. All the brass; HRTRS, Winchester, Starline, etc, measure the same starting. All measure the same after sizing. I can't measure or see a difference between brands until I pull it back out of the die. Lube or no lube, it doesn't matter. Pin or no pin it does it. Sized or not sized, it makes no difference. The only difference is in the brand of brass.

[Cholla]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I find it better in these cases, to make a phone call and deal with a warm body.

OLG

If I get nowhere with the online query, I will call.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

All the brass; HRTRS, Winchester, Starline, etc, measure the same starting. All measure the same after sizing. I can't measure or see a difference between brands until I pull it back out of the die. Lube or no lube, it doesn't matter. Pin or no pin it does it. Sized or not sized, it makes no difference. The only difference is in the brand of brass.

 

Well, it's something about the case dimensions that is off on the Herters stuff.  Have you measured rim diameter and rim thickness?   A thinner rim, combined with a sloppy fit in the shell holder in your Orange Crusher single stage press, may let that Herter brass tip slightly, and if your die has a rough spot on the top side of the carbide sizing ring,  the ring shaves the case.     So, it's probably something different with the rim (only part that your shell holder holds on to).  

 

Could even be that someone who didn't know how to, tried to anneal the case necks for a better gas seal, and got the web of the case dead soft, which lets a die in poor condition shave off brass.

 

You certainly have a solution, even if you don't yet know the exact cause.   So,  stop messing with the HRTR headstamp cases  and get a new die set.

 

Good luck with it, GJ

[Cholla]

My new dies arrived today. The new sizer worked on the HRTRS cases without an issue. It is the same brand; RCBS. This just gives me more fodder to push RCBS for a free replacement die.

 

Thanks all.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Does you problem die have a date stamp on it?

OLG