.45 Cowboy Special. Load Data

[Chuck Would, SASS # 53289]

I'm looking to start loading .45 Cowboy Special.  I have some brass and some 160 grain RNFP bullet's and a large quantity of W-231 and HP-38 Powder.  I'm up to my hips in it through several good deals.  It's been my go to powder for both .45 Colt as well as .45 Schofield loads and has served me well for many years.

 

The problem I'm having is finding good data for that powder(s) and the .45 Cowboy Special.  I've been through my manuals and online information and have spent hours doing research over the last several months.  Best load data I can find is for the 155 grain LSWC or the 160 Bar Tack and that I know is a Jacketed Hollow point.   These of course are for the .45 ACP and I don't need to cycle a slide

 

I know that most folks will tell me that my answer is Trail Boss and it probably is a much better powder for the cartridge but I don't have that in stock.

 

If anyone has a good load for the .45 Special and a 160 grain RNFP using HP-38 or W231 would you please PM me the recipe.

 

Thanks in advance for any help you may offer,

[WOODFOX , sass#34179]

Try load data for 45 Auto Rim .

 Woodfox 

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Good Afternoon:

 

Here is stuff I have saved thru the years, both from Adirondack Jack & queries on the Wire.

--Dawg

http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/cowboy45special.pdf

 

http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/cowboy_45_Special_Jacks_load_data.pdf

 

http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/cowboy45specialLoadData.pdf

 

http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/45CS_wire_data.pdf

[Perro Del Diablo]

I suggest call Hogden and talk to their tech rep

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Hodgdon does't really help much with super-wildcat cartridges like C45S.

 

.45 auto data commonly runs much higher pressure than you ought to use in our cowboy guns designed for .45 Colt, because .45 Colt has a design pressure limit of about 13,000 Psi

 

I've loaded that for about 8 years now, and have a few loads that I can send you, although I've not loaded a 160 grain slug. (I like a 175 grain slug that I have a mold for)

 

I find a faster powder is a little better at burning well in C45S with cast bullets than 231.  231 would be really the cat's meow with jacketed bullet loads that raise pressures a little faster because they are not so ductile (more rigid).

 

I'll send a couple of examples this evening.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Ripsaw]

Yeah, 231 is not the best for C45S.  Bullseye, 700x, Red Dot, Clays would work better with a lighter lead bullet at cowboy velocities. I know you asked specifically for 231, and the advice to refer to bottom end .45 AR or .45ACP load data is one way to go, but it won't be the cleanest burning powder at low velocities.  Maybe trade some of your 231 for something else?  

 

 

[Chuck Would, SASS # 53289]

1 hour ago, WOODFOX , sass#34179 said:

Try load data for 45 Auto Rim .

 Woodfox 

 

I've looked at both the .45 ACP as well as .45 AR data in the last few months.  Nothing in my manuals for .45 AR under 200 grain for any type of lead bullets.  185 for jacketed.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just for info-Powder burn rate chart.

http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

 

OLG

[Chuck Would, SASS # 53289]

5 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Just for info-Powder burn rate chart.

http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

 

OLG

Thanks OLG.

[Ripsaw]

Hodgdon's data for 231 and a 160g bullet shows a starting load at 17,900 psi, well above the 45 Colt's 13,000 +/- load maximum. It is for a jacketed bullet, so pressures will be higher than with a lead or coated bullet. So be very careful here.

 

I suspect that the minimum load is based on sufficient energy to operate the slide of a 1911 rather than a true minimum safe load from a combustion/ballistics perspective. Your revolver has no slide to operate, so significantly lower loads would work fine, given sufficient pressure to assure mostly complete combustion of the propellent.  Again, 231 is not a truly "fast" powder and won't combust completely with light bullets and low power loads. Though, it may still work fine, even if leaving the guns a little dirtier, if that's all you've got.  

 

Looking at a similar load in 45 S&W (Schofield) a case size between the 45Colt and the C45S, under a 200g lead bullet yields 8800 CUP, well under the limits for 45Colt.  An experienced reloader might work from that to develop a suitable load. 

 

If you are open to other powders, I'll share my test results with 700x, Clays, and Red Dot with 180g and 160g coated bullets.  PM me. 

 

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

FYI-WW231 and HP-38 are the same powder.

OLG

[Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996]

HP-38(W-231) was Hodgdon fast pistol powder for many years.    Iv'e used it in my .41 and .44 cowboy loads since I took up Cowboy Shooting back in 2000.

 

pm to me if ya need a copy of Hodgdon's Cowboy Acton Data manual -- 4th Ed.    I don't think that info is up on their site anymore.

 

just as a general rule you would want a target speed type load for Cowboy Action.    Run a Chron test on your ammo -- if at all possible.

 

 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Trailboss works fine in my wife's pistols and carbine, but with a 200 grain bullet. The same load should work fine with a 165. I should think most any 200 grain bullet load should work, as yuo are using a lighter bullet.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I'll say it again, .45 auto load data is HOT for what pressure cowboy guns are designed for.  

 

Sure, I can shoot a .45 auto max level load in the C45S case in my old model Vaqueros.  I SURELY would not shoot it in my Uberti Cattleman revolvers. 

 

Schofield data can give you an idea of where to start, and work down from.  But even good Schofield data is hard to find anymore.

 

I'm pretty sure I have (in the past) worked up and tested a 175 grain bullet and 231 powder load for Cowboy 45 Special.    I'll certainly send you that and some with 700-X, TiteGroup, Bullseye (all good load), Clays (a useful load) and WST (a really great load, and what I normally use anymore).

 

GJ

[Bart Solo]

I would just go to the Hodgdon site and look at the starting load for 160 grain 45 ACP bullets using HP-38 or Win 231.   Now if you want to go lower than the recommended starting load you are on your own but I have never had a problem using the bottom end of 45 ACP data with Cowboy Special ammunition at least as a start. 

 

I agree that Trailboss is a much better choice for this purpose.   

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Load I have tested sent by PM.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Warden Callaway]

 

Fortunecookie45lc has put up 8 videos on loading the C45S.  Unfortunately,   his efforts are directed at making loads at higher end of performance rather than loads we'd typically want for CAS.  In any case, lots of info.

[Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996]

Here's the link to the Hodgdon Site

Hodgdon Cowboy Action Load Data

 

Notes

1. HP-38(W-231) -- is a excellent choice for Cowboy action loads -- or any target loads for pistols.   no reason to replace your existing stock.

2. HP-38(W-231) -- is a little more mild than some of the extra fast powders e.g. Bullseye, Tightgroup, AA No.2 etc

3. if you start experimenting -- do so in small increments -- and use a Chrony.   I like my Cowboy Action loads at about 750 fps.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

18 hours ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/cowboy_45_Special_Jacks_load_data.pdf

I like the Red Dot load from AJs data with 200gr RNFP. Good Luck

 

Of course 3f real BP with 200gr BL is my fav

[Grouchy Spike]

19 hours ago, Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 said:

pm to me if ya need a copy of Hodgdon's Cowboy Acton Data manual -- 4th Ed.    I don't think that info is up on their site anymore.

 

Is this the manual ?

http://www.survivorlibrary.com/library/hodgdon_2002_blackpowder_reloaders_manual.pdf

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Hodgdon has never published data specific to Cowboy .45 Special cartridge

.45 auto data is not in that Cowboy data manual either.  

Don't see what good the Hodgdon Cowboy data sheets will do the OP.

Good luck, GJ

[Captain Clark]

+1 on what GJ says regarding the Hodgdon cowboy load manual for C45S loads! The current Hodgdon website does have the formula for loading TRAIL BOSS in any cartridge. I don't know everything about the C45S case, still learning after gaining some experience with it. In the 15K+ rounds I've fired both smoky and smokeless, my best results are with Trail Boss, 700x, BlackMZ and APP. I guess this doesn't directly answer the OP on his available powder, but these are my choices based on chronograph, various bullets from 150 to 200 and real world use for CAS!

[Chuck Would, SASS # 53289]

I'd like to take a moment to say thanks to everyone who tried to answer my question.  I do appreciate everyone taking time out to help or advise me.

 

Like I said I've done all kinds of research with little or no good results over the past year or so.  I have looked and stopped and relooked again several times - life sometimes gets in the way - as research usually answers the questions.  I was just surprised that I was the only one who wanted to try this powder/bullet combination.  And from the response on the wire, it looks like I am.  I'm NEVER the 1st guy to do anything.  LOL

 

Thinking about it over night after reading everyone's comments and advice, I'm starting to build the ladder with a LOW (redacted the number so our friends as SASS don't have an issue) grain load and working up in .2 grain increments.  I'm weighing every powder charge to make sure I'm +/- .01 on every cartridge.  Shooting for an exact charge.  Every one will be checked in my Chamber checker.  This is gonna take a while as checking every charge is very time consuming and will likely take more than a few trips to the range.  

 

I will be testing this load with an Old Model Vaquero.  Ruger built those like tanks in case anyone decided to wildcat/hotrod a cartridge.  Why risk my Colts?  I'm also bringing my Squib rod in case they don't get out of the barrel.  The old Boy Scout Motto, "Be Prepared" comes into play.

 

One thing I neglected to mention is that I'm doing this on a Dillon 650 with Dillon's .45 ACP dies.  I can see already that I'll be looking for a Roll Crimp Die.  The Taper Crimp while adequate is not going to contain the ignition as well as a good roll crimp.

 

Sometimes talking over a problem surfaces issues that one never considered.  Makes other problems go away.

 

Again, thanks for the help.  It is greatly appreciated. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

When looking for a roll crimp die for C45Spl, I turn to a .45 auto rim seat/crimp die.   It's the right length of body, and has a roll crimp ledge instead of a taper crimp like .45 auto  die has.

 

Don't have to cut a long piece off the bottom of a .45 Colt die doing it this way.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

My standard Hornady .45 Colt dies will seat and roll crimp the C45S without mods to the die.

 

However, that's on a Hornady LNL press. Don't know how it work in a Dillon tool head.

[Griff]

PM sent.

[Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996]

4 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Is this the manual ?

http://www.survivorlibrary.com/library/hodgdon_2002_blackpowder_reloaders_manual.pdf

 

yep

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

For me it is pretty easy. Just fill the case within 1/8" of the top with bp (or sub), seat the bullet and get to shootin. Just one advantage of shooting BP!

[Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996]

"45 Cowboy Special"

 

I went out and poked around on the Starline site,.....

"Cowboy Special" is apparently a cut-back .45Colt case so that it's about the same capacity as .45ACP

 

I would definitely contact Hodgdon for a start load

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Official name is exactly what the developer called it - "Cowboy .45 Special. "  That is what Starline uses for the headstamp still.   Adirondack Jack, a great Cowboy shooter, developed it.  It is NOT just a cut  .45 Colt, but it has the same head dimensions as one.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

Is there a benefit shooting the Cowboy Special round over the Schofield You can work up a nice soft Schofield load to be within .4 gr of the CBS minimum. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Schofields have a larger case rim diameter.  Ruger Vaqueros have a tight "chamber circle".  Some guns won't let the Schofields fit the cylinder.    That's what I remember about the discussion several years ago when AJ explained the benefits of the Special.

 

If you don't have such problems, you are sure free to use Schofield cases.

 

Another question asking "why" when there may be no good answer, just an answer.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

Is there a benefit shooting the Cowboy Special round over the Schofield You can work up a nice soft Schofield load to be within .4 gr of the CBS minimum. 

One, that affects some folks, the Schofield may not work in some revolvers or long guns.  The Cowboy45Special will work in any 45 Colt revolver, as the only the case length is shorter... there are some internal differences, but they're of no real significance.  (If you just use a cut down 45 Colt case, with some diameters & upper weight bullets, you'll see a very slight bulge at the base of the bullet.  The cases I have that someone else cut down were reamed inside to allow for smooth exteriors.  I've used up to a 225 grain TC bullet in the C45S with no ill effect on case dimensions.  I know some folks are using up 250-255 grain pills and report no problems).

 

Two, for myself at least, I can set up to reload my 45ACPs for WB, then just change out the shell plate & seating/crimp die (I use a RCBS 45ACP Rollcrimp seater/crimper... actually have a separate tool head all set up), and I'm loading C45S for my Marlin.  Until Starline started selling direct, I didn't want to use mine up as I lose a fair percentage in the grass!   

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

I thank you for the info.

[Chuck Would, SASS # 53289]

8 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

Is there a benefit shooting the Cowboy Special round over the Schofield You can work up a nice soft Schofield load to be within .4 gr of the CBS minimum. 

My reason is simple.  I'm retired.  I injured my shoulder over the winter.  I have time on my hands as well as all the required parts.

Figured I'd work up a load and try it.

I'm shooting Schofield brass now.  200 grain bullet at the top of the powder range.  I like some recoil.  I'll probably hate the mouse fat loads but like I said, I got time to do it, so, why not.