Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 I've searched the SASS WIRE Forum Archives for the answer to this question, and haven't found it yet, so I thought I would ask it here. The VIN number on a car is it's Serial Number and it specifically follows a coding sequence that someone (who knows the code) could determine the specifics of that vehicle. Such as: Is this the same thing with the Serial Numbers that are stamped on firearms, and is there a similar coding system to identify them? If so, where can one find such a coding system? Are there standards for Serial Numbers on firearms or can just any alpha-numeric combination be used and still be legal? There have been THREADS posted on the SASS WIRE Forum that come close, but don't answer the broad question at hand. This one only addressed USFA and Uberti firearms. This one addressed why the serial number would be blurred out in a Classified Ad, etc. This one addressed the need to have the serial number re-stamped based on adding a scope. This one I believe addressed only the Colt firearms. FOR EXAMPLE: What do the following three (3) serial numbers tell you about the firearm? Firearm #1: Firearm #2: Firearm #3: Appreciate any assistance you can provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Most firearms serial numbers any more have no coded meaning - they are just a number. Unlike the auto industry, there is no VIN standard on firearms. Only a BATFE requirement that a manufacturer's serial number be unique to just one gun within a manufacturer's production. Some manufacturers provide a digit or two to signify year of production of the frame (like Marlin). Many don't. Some manufacturers provide a digit or two to distinguish the model (like Ruger?). Many don't. Some manufacturers provide a capability to have a personalized number (like your first example). Many don't. What is the importance? BATFE requirement after 1968. It identifies a gun even after it has passed through several owners, and if there is ATF paperwork on some of the (recent) transfers, it may allow criminal investigators to trace ownership chain close to who is the current owner. It identifies a gun as yours if it is stolen, for possible return purposes. (Yeah, sure. ) It reduces attempts to try to post-date or pre-date a gun or counterfeit an old valuable gun. When designs change in the run of a model of guns, it helps the manufacturer and parts suppliers know if you need the old design part or the new design part. It can be key in obtaining provenance papers from a few manufacturers that increase value of collectable firearms. It supports warrranty claims where there is a time limit on the warranty. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Rose, SASS #45478 Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Vin's are exclusive to the automobile they are on, at least in the USA. serial numbers on guns are not exclusive, i.e. guns from different manufacturers can have the same serial number. Some gun companies add certain characters to a serial number to distinguish year made and model, etc. Through the years different companies have used the same number over with a different prefix. When researching you need to know the company and model in addition to the serial number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Quote This one addressed the need to have the serial number re-stamped based on adding a scope. There is no requirement to change a serial number due to adding something. But if you wipe out part of a serial number as part of a modification, without stamping it someplace else, you will be running aground of Fed regs involving destroying a firearm serial number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 8 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: 6 minutes ago, Jackson Rose, SASS #45478 said: Am I correct then, that based on the three (3) examples above, without seeing the firearm, there is no way identify it? Yet they are all legal, viable serial numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: There is no requirement to change a serial number due to adding something. But if you wipe out part of a serial number as part of a modification, without stamping it someplace else, you will be running aground of Fed regs involving destroying a firearm serial number. Joe: That's what I read it that one. Turns out someone was wanting to mount a scope and they feared that in doing so, they would have to drill a hole through one of the serial numbers. They had the manufacturer re-stamp it on the barrel; however, when the scope was mounted, the drilled hole missed the number they thought it would have obscured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Many gun makers use pre-fix codes and such to ID lot runs, and when the gun was made. Old Marlin and Ruger are well known for this. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Colt has reused many serial numbers over the years. If you run a serial number on their website, you will come up with a list of different models of guns that your serial number has been used on. I ran one recently that had been used at least a half dozen times...first on an 1851 Navy, and last on an Official Police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 45 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: They had the manufacturer re-stamp it on the barrel; however, when the scope was mounted, the drilled hole missed the number they thought it would have obscured. BATFE requires, I believe, the serial number to be on the RECEIVER. Initially, and if restamped. Both the owner request and the gunsmith willingness to stamp barrel instead would be wrong. But, since the receiver serial number is still readable, no further correction is needed. Keeps folks from swapping out a barrel and then the barrel with number may get installed on another receiver, and the first gun then has no readable serial number. What BATFE considers the receiver is what is required to be serialized. So, AR style rifles, the lower receiver is serialized and is "the firearm". Uppers are just parts, not firearms. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Quote without seeing the firearm, there is no way identify it? You have to be very knowledgeable about the serial numbers that all the manufacturers have used to tell what exact firearm any of those are on. Many pards around here would know what that first one probably is from, because they know Ruger is about the only company that did/will do a SASS prefix and a SASS member number for a serial number (on Vaqueros). Last one almost looks like hand engraved letters and machine stamped numbers - so a custom number "alteration" that might not even be legal to BATFE. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Quote Is this the same thing with the Serial Numbers that are stamped on firearms, and is there a similar coding system to identify them? In 1968, the Gun Control Act (GCA) imposed numerous additional requirements in the arena of gun manufacture. As per the GCA, all firearms manufactured or imported into the United States are required to bear a serial number. But,a uniform numbering code sequence? Nope but the majority of the manufacturers have a coded sequenence - Other don't. For instance, Lone Star Rifles - any configuration you desire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: Firearm #1: Firearm #2: Firearm #3: #1 - Ruger New Vaquero SASS series revolver #2 - GUESS - Colt firearm #3 - GUESS - Remington Arms something or other that the V indicates a series along with a number. There is no standardization for firearm serial numbers from one manufacturer to the next. Often a company will have several different formats depending on the series or models of guns. Some, like Ruger Vaqueros, for instance, will have a 2 digit prefix that denotes the year that gun was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Lone Rider Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 One example many of us are familiar with is the Uberti 1866. The prefix of the serial number is an indicator of the size of the screw and screw hole for the loading ladle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Sheridan Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 When Remington-UMC began making M1911s for the US government in 1918 they started with serial #1 and went all the way up to #21,000 or something. Of course Colt had also started with #1, which means there were 21,000 pairs Model of 1911 pistols out there with the same serial number... one from Colt and the other from Remington-UMC. A similar mix-up happened during WW2 between Colt and the other pistol contractors. In addition Colt .38 Super serial numbers also began with #1, and they used that same numbering system all the way through 1970 which means all of those pistols share a serial number with a military M1911 somewhere. And if that isn't enough, Argentine M1927 pistols (an identical copy of an M1911A1) used the same numbering sequence as well so they too will have the same number as a Colt M1911 pistol somewhere. Collectors often have to look at things like the size, font or location of the serial number just to be able to tell who actually made that given 1911 frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 34 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: #1 - Ruger New Vaquero SASS series revolver CORRECT #2 - GUESS - Colt firearm STOEGER COACH GUN SUPREME #3 - GUESS - Remington Arms something or other that the V indicates a series along with a number. HENRY BIG BOY SILVER There is no standardization for firearm serial numbers from one manufacturer to the next. Often a company will have several different formats depending on the series or models of guns. Some, like Ruger Vaqueros, for instance, will have a 2 digit prefix that denotes the year that gun was made. Pat: Thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 18 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: Pat: Thanks for playing. Ha! 1 out of 3 ain’t too bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Just for your information, Colt made SASS Single Action Army revolvers. You could use your SASS number as the serial number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Most of the old time firearms manufacturers stamped serial numbers on there guns long, long ago. Colt, Winchester, Smith and Wesson, to name a few have always stamped serial numbers on their guns, starting in the mid 1800s. But there was no Federal requirement for guns to have a Serial Number until the Gun Control Act or 1968. I have an old Stevens 311 shotgun that has no serial number because it was made before 1968. In the beginning serial numbers were just a way for manufacturers to inventory what they made. Nothing more, nothing less. And there was no rhyme or reason to them from manufacturer to manufacturer. Current Federal law stipulates the SN has to be on the receiver or frame. But I have a few old Winchesters that have the SN on the lower tang, which is a separate part from the receiver. Colt Single Action Army revolvers had an interesting way of dealing with serial numbers. First Generations (from 1873 until 1940) just had numbers, from 1 to 357,859. Second Gens started in 1956 with 0001SA up to 73,319SA in 1975. Third Gens started with 80,000SA in 1976, up to 99,999SA in 1978. Then they changed the SA from a suffix to a prefix in 1978 with SA01001 up to SA99,99 in 1993. In 1993 they continued with S02001A. The latest information I have is S26,699A in 1999. No idea how far they have gotten now. Smith and Wesson has had a bazillion different systems for serializing their guns over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Howdy, And just to make it more fun, some companies did not start at 1 and go up. They didn't want serial numbers giving the competition production quantities.. And some have restarted numbering over the years. The reason we need to be aware is, law enforcement will grab a gun as stolen They base this ONLY on serial number. If its your gun and you bought it legal, ask about other info before they take it. Stolen guns are stolen forever. All good stuff to know. Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 13 hours ago, Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 said: Just for your information, Colt made SASS Single Action Army revolvers. You could use your SASS number as the serial number. Ringo: You are closer than you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 SASS Colts were two line SASS if you got a pair the second was xxxxx xxxxx SASS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Interestingly, Remington Arms Co., the entity from 1888 to about 1913 started numbering their Over-and-Under Double Derringers at #1 through 999, and then started over! The only differences were in the type of script with the trademark name on the top of the barrels. Even then, there might have been duplicates within a script type! About 1913, you started to see some stamped with numbers, with Remington-UMC on the top, which used up the rest of the "Third Models" left over from Remington Arms Co. Then you started to see an "L" prefix in the 90,000 - 99,99X range, followed by L75,000 - L76,2XX (with the odd L80,XXX having been recorded.) Most of these Remington-UMC, after about 1922 had a two-letter date code stamped on the side of the locking lugs, which could be decoded to the month and date of manufacture! These were basically inventory/production codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 A Forgotten Weapons YouTube video of the current Chinese service pistol, model CF-98. The 9x19 chambered weapon is an export to Canada chambering. It has the serial no. stamped on the slid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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