evil dogooder Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Ok I've had two black pins give me differing answers to this so hopefully mr palewolf chimes in. Live round on the carrier with no hands on firearm To reference. A shooter comes to the shotgun throws a live round in the port then grabs more from his belt. No hands touching his gun. So depending how the shell lands it could be on the carrier or it could slide into the chamber. Is there a call or is it ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 I'd say no call as long as it doesn't enter the chamber. You have until the next firearm is fired to clear a live round from the carrier of the gun. Since this is the next gun engaged, no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 18 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said: I'd say no call as long as it doesn't enter the chamber. You have until the next firearm is fired to clear a live round from the carrier of the gun. Since this is the next gun engaged, no call. That's my thoughts on it.. however what if the front of the round goes into the chamber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StirrupTrouble Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 If the front of the round is in the chamber, then it is considered a chambered round and the penalty would apply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, StirrupTrouble said: If the front of the round is in the chamber, then it is considered a chambered round and the penalty would apply So the better process would be to make sure you always have one hand in contact to negate the penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StirrupTrouble Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 1 minute ago, evil dogooder said: So the better process would be to make sure you always have one hand in contact to negate the penalty? Personally I would if there was any question rather than assume Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 I ASSume this SG is a Winny 97. When I use a '97, I will drop a round into the port while it's still on the table- then PU the SG and close the slide. Then thumb in the second shell into the mag.......... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 It's a minor safety if it's on the carrier and not in the chamber and a SDQ if it's in the chamber. Shooters Handbook A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation. A live round left in the chamber of a long gun carries a Stage Disqualification penalty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 20 minutes ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said: It's a minor safety if it's on the carrier and not in the chamber and a SDQ if it's in the chamber. Shooters Handbook A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation. A live round left in the chamber of a long gun carries a Stage Disqualification penalty Hence the confusion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said: It's a minor safety if it's on the carrier and not in the chamber and a SDQ if it's in the chamber. Shooters Handbook A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation. A live round left in the chamber of a long gun carries a Stage Disqualification penalty Page #22 OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, evil dogooder said: Hence the confusion.... Guess I don't see the confusion, it's either in the chamber or not. If the problem is it wasn't called until the shooter picked it up and the TO couldn't see where the round was I'd give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and call a safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 As I stated, you have until the next gun is fired to clear the round, live or dead. If the sg is the final gun then you have until you put it down on the unloading table and remove your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Not as I read this...Empty case is a 'no-call'. Page #22 OLG But it's not an empty case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Goodnight Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 " To reference. A shooter comes to the shotgun throws a live round in the port then grabs more from his belt. No hands touching his gun." I assume that this action was directly followed by picking up the SG and engaging the targets. Correct? IMPO this is a No-Call. He's coming into the Shotgun portion of the Stage, he has not "Left" it. He hasn't even mounted the firearm yet and he hasn't stepped away from it thus he has not "Left" anything in the magazine or on the Carrier. As long as he doesn't step away from the SG I see no infraction. SHB Quote: "A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation. A live round left in the chamber of a long gun carries a Stage Disqualification penalty" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 20 minutes ago, evil dogooder said: But it's not an empty case OOPS- You did state a live round-..... Sorry, OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 11 minutes ago, Augustus Goodnight said: " To reference. A shooter comes to the shotgun throws a live round in the port then grabs more from his belt. No hands touching his gun." I assume that this action was directly followed by picking up the SG and engaging the targets. Correct? IMPO this is a No-Call. He's coming into the Shotgun portion of the Stage, he has not "Left" it. He hasn't even mounted the firearm yet and he hasn't stepped away from it thus he has not "Left" anything in the magazine or on the Carrier. As long as he doesn't step away from the SG I see no infraction. SHB Quote: "A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation. A live round left in the chamber of a long gun carries a Stage Disqualification penalty" In the new HB(pg22)-There is no mention of empty case being left as a source for any penalty. So does that still apply?? Respectfully, OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 15 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: In the new HB(pg22)-There is no mention of empty case being left as a source for any penalty. So does that still apply?? Respectfully, OLG Page 21 of new SHB says: Quote Minor Safety Violation (MSV) infractions include: - Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded. Still applies. Good luck GJ But, I'd no call the OP's scenario, since the round was not "left" after having actually having used the gun - gun was just being "prepped" to be used and was used immediately following the prepping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 7 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Page 21 of new SHB says: Still applies. Good luck GJ TY! Minor Safety Violation (MSV) infractions include: - Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded. - Open, empty long guns that slip and fall – but do not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone. - Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45° down range OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 From the Pocket RO card. "Empty or live round in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded after the next firearm is fired, or if last firearm, put down on the unloading table. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Timing is very important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 My call: "running with live rabbit, Penalty: loss of down, sent directly to bed without supper and no badminton for a month." and we wonder why folks think we have too many rules??? cheyenne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Goodnight Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said: My call: "running with live rabbit, Penalty: loss of down, sent directly to bed without supper and no badminton for a month." and we wonder why folks think we have too many rules??? cheyenne Was the rabbit "In-Hand" or running beside them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Rick, SASS#84292 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Evil, Did the shooter pick up the shotgun and engages the targets? Then after shooting the gun set it down empty or take it to the unloading table? Agustus Goodnight said it best provideing he did pick the gun up and shoot it. Again, IF he picked the gun up and fired it at the correct targets, then set it down or took it to the UL and able it is a no call! Whiskey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 5 hours ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said: It's a minor safety if it's on the carrier and not in the chamber and a SDQ if it's in the chamber. Shooters Handbook A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation. A live round left in the chamber of a long gun carries a Stage Disqualification penalty +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 I believe we had this discussion a year or 2 ago. No call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 A shooter has until the next round goes (hopefully) down range to correct the situation. Load, empty has no bearing on it nor does chamber or lifter under the old rules read the NEW book for clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 From the new book Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Shotguns A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only: - Empty. A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only: - Action open, round in chamber or on carrier. - Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 I've looked at the new book pretty closely and I don't see a section that could be used as a stand alone reference for this call. I agree with Augustus that the round was not 'left' in the chamber. That rule shouldn't apply. The rule regarding a round in the action 'might' apply, but in the real world at match speeds are we going to see a TO in this situation stop the shooter before the gun is in hand, apply a SDQ, and be able to verify that the round was in the action before the shooter picked up the gun? I don't think so. I think that is a 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' question. No call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Monger Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Hmmm! Do you have to have the shotgun "in hand" to load it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 25 minutes ago, Lead Monger said: Hmmm! Do you have to have the shotgun "in hand" to load it? Rules do not require that, do they? I would, most shooters would, but the practice at ANY match I have been at is that a shooter does not have to have it in their hands to toss a shell in the port. Our history has been that a shooter can drop rounds in without having gun in hand. That is why I think this situation is a NO CALL. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null N. Void Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 It's a no call. I told a shooter at a match they had to keep their hand on the SG to prevent a penalty in a similar situation. A Black Pin nicely explained that that was not correct. The shooter has until the next gun is fired or the firearm is placed on the unloading table to remove a round (fired or un-fired) that is left on the carrier. Once the shooter picks up the shotgun and fires the round, any potential for the penalty is erased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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