Filthy Harry, SASS #24924 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Maybe 'Im just looking for an excuse to buy a new gun,but I've been reading about the Ruger Vaquero, birds head grip, 3 1/2" 45acp gun. Rather than buy a single stack Glock 43, or Shield, or Officers model 1911, would the Ruger make a good addition to my self defense guns. I do shoot my single actions a lot more than my other guns. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 We have discussed the pros and cons of a single action pistol for ccw here many times. As a former police firearms instructor I advise against it for a number of reasons. I would only carry one concealed if it was the only firearm I owned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 We have discussed the pros and cons of a single action pistol for ccw here many times. As a former police firearms instructor I advise against it for a number of reasons. I would only carry one concealed if it was the only firearm I owned. What Utah said - he knows about this stuff. About the only time I'd say carrying a SAA style pistol might make sense is if you're packing in back country for extended time, and keeping a semi auto clean might prove difficult. Even then I might suggest that cleaning equipment takes up little room, and a good holster can protect the semi-auto fairly well. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filthy Harry, SASS #24924 Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 OK, my point was, I'm thinking about something to go with my gen 4 G26 and XDM 3.8 compact 45. options were a Shield, a G43, or a small, Officers model 1911. I think, because of the years of Cowboy Action, I've been shooting, that 45acp in a short barreled Vaquero would be better and faster than a single stack nine or a small. I'll go away 1911 that would possibly jam. I would trust the Vaquero more, and I like the 45acp round I'll go away now decide on my own what I should do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Heavy, slow to reload and marginal sights in low light conditions make this a non starter as a ccw gun and I own 4 vaqueros in 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 OK, my point was, I'm thinking about something to go with my gen 4 G26 and XDM 3.8 compact 45. options were a Shield, a G43, or a small, Officers model 1911. I think, because of the years of Cowboy Action, I've been shooting, that 45acp in a short barreled Vaquero would be better and faster than a single stack nine or a small. I'll go away 1911 that would possibly jam. I would trust the Vaquero more, and I like the 45acp round I'll go away now decide on my own what I should do. Perhaps I misunderstood what you just wrote - but it reads like you're saying that since you didn't get a standing ovation for your choice you're going to stop taking input and decide for yourself? Best of luck with your choices, and I hope you NEVER have to test them for real. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorado Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 If you have no other option a Vaquero would be better than nothing. Any gun would. However do you want to limit yourself to just 5-6 bullets in a gun that is hard to conceal, hard to reload, has poor sights, and is slow? Or would you rather have something that can hold more, conceal easier, easy to reload, has good to excellent sights, and is fast? All that has been said is that any single action revolver is severely limited. You might be practiced with it but in terms of self-defense there are so many better options that ignoring the advice given to you is beyond being bull-headed. We don't care if you just want to protect yourself with something that you're comfortable with. We were asked for advice and that's what you got. Do you want to leave the life of your loved ones to an antiquated piece of junk, or something that has been proven many, many times in life or death encounters? We love the Vaquero for competition, there's no doubt there. That is it's place. But in a place where lives are in danger, you owe it to yourself and to others to have the best possible equipment you can get. That's where the Vaquero or ANY single action falls short. Take it or leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Howdy, Maybe a 625 S&W 45 acp with moon clips? Just don't tell whats his name.... Operate however you like. Lots of barrel lengths and grip combos available. As much as I like single actions that is one nice shootin iron. Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Howdy, Maybe a 625 S&W 45 acp with moon clips? Just don't tell whats his name.... Operate however you like. Lots of barrel lengths and grip combos available. As much as I like single actions that is one nice shootin iron. Best CR CR, Laughed out loud! I agree with you here though. Best, CG S&W 625 JM has an interchangeable front sight...XS Sights makes a tritium sight that drops right in. Excellent sight for idpa or SD/HD. Works well in all light and no light. Find the right size chainsaw file and U out the rear sight... awesome combination and accurate out to fifty yards or so...Just ask Josh Lentz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I'm going to go against the grain here. If that's what you want to carry, do so. You do have to decide on a holster and belt, as well as covering garments. Something that will conceal well, but NOT get in the way of a fast draw if needed. Practice will be a MUST! Drawing without the hammer catching on something will be probable at best under anything except MAYBE a photographer's vest or some other piece of clothing that screams "GUN!!" to anybody that has a clue. Five shots should be fine, though. Probably 90+ % of CCW carriers are toting a five shot J frame .38 anyway, so a .45 has that beat, albeit at the expense of weight and size. Several years ago, a G&A writer experimented with carrying an "N" frame as a CCW for a few months. He said that it worked, but he had to work a lot harder at it than with the aforementioned "J" frame, which he went back to after the article. Personally, I carry a 3" Taurus 85 as my primary CCW, and an LCP for "deep" concealment. My everyday, open carry, (Arizona) gun, however, is a Vaquero. Polished Stainless, 4 5/8" barrel, in .45Colt. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I'm going to go against the grain here. If that's what you want to carry, do so. You do have to decide on a holster and belt, as well as covering garments. Something that will conceal well, but NOT get in the way of a fast draw if needed. Practice will be a MUST! Drawing without the hammer catching on something will be probable at best under anything except MAYBE a photographer's vest or some other piece of clothing that screams "GUN!!" to anybody that has a clue. Five shots should be fine, though. Probably 90+ % of CCW carriers are toting a five shot J frame .38 anyway, so a .45 has that beat, albeit at the expense of weight and size. Several years ago, a G&A writer experimented with carrying an "N" frame as a CCW for a few months. He said that it worked, but he had to work a lot harder at it than with the aforementioned "J" frame, which he went back to after the article. Personally, I carry a 3" Taurus 85 as my primary CCW, and an LCP for "deep" concealment. My everyday, open carry, (Arizona) gun, however, is a Vaquero. Polished Stainless, 4 5/8" barrel, in .45Colt. Good Luck. my bet is that the Ruger Vaquero or even the N-frame 625 will soon enough be left on the night stand, rather than taken concealed under garment. Neither would be my first choice, on person or at home. PS,, good luck with whatever the OP chooses to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Here's a few questions for the OP or anyone wanting to carry the Vaquero: What is your standard of acceptable accuracy with your carry gun? What is your true capability with the gun? What is the maximum range you can hit an index card with a full diameter hit? Can you operate the pistol with each hand independently? What is your plan for low light/dark shooting where point shooting will not suffice? Here's my results with the Vaquero: 6" plate accurate at 25 yds. 10/10 shots With the Vaquero that's a concentrated effort for me to achieve one handed. My true capability is 50 yard vital hits on man sized targets. I can hit out to 100 yards, but that's iffy as some can attest. I like fifteen yards and in for the index card shot. Remember it has to be a full diameter hit. Partial hits are a miss. Yes, I can operate the pistol with either hand independently. Gunfighter has been eye opening. I carry a flashlight and have practiced firing in the dark by illuminating the sights and the target. How else does one test one's loads the night before a match?😎 I'm happy on a six inch plate at 10 yards and in. I'm a lot slower with the Vaquero than with a plastic box pistol or S&W revo so it's not my first choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burt Blade, #25657 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Question for the participants: Is there a -documented- case of a civilian defensive shooting, where a quick reload made the difference between win or lose? If a five-shot J-Frame .38 is an adequate sidearm for the civilian, then a six-shot .45 would seem also to be "enough". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Plain and simple. Look at the facts not what hype people try to tell you. The vast majority of self defense situations fire only a few rounds. Not multiple mags like everyone recommends carrying. Besides the fact of emptying that many rounds you will have a lot of collateral damage that you will be paying for. The uneducated still see revolvers in a better light than high cap plastic guns. Revolvers don't have magazine jams, stove pipes or jam on a bad primer. Sights.. Well that's a pretty easy fix as simple as day glow nail polish. I carry a .45 vaquero or .32 single six 90% of the time i carry. Not my match guns but guns that are set up and sighted in for the task. I can hit with either hand, either eye, standing, kneeling or laying on my back or stomach at the legal distances in mn. That's why i carry them. Each state is different but most are 21 feet or less. If you engage beyond that expect to lose the legal battle so the whole target shooting aspect is bogus. Your aiming at center mass not a hand or foot. Holsters? Come on. If you can hide a 1911 you can hide a vaquero. There are plenty of people that can make any type holster you want. It boils down to carry what you want. Nobody else's opinion matters. If your going to carry it, practice with it. Know it's strengths and weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Plain and simple. Look at the facts not what hype people try to tell you. The vast majority of self defense situations fire only a few rounds. Not multiple mags like everyone recommends carrying. Besides the fact of emptying that many rounds you will have a lot of collateral damage that you will be paying for. The uneducated still see revolvers in a better light than high cap plastic guns. Revolvers don't have magazine jams, stove pipes or jam on a bad primer. Sights.. Well that's a pretty easy fix as simple as day glow nail polish. I carry a .45 vaquero or .32 single six 90% of the time i carry. Not my match guns but guns that are set up and sighted in for the task. I can hit with either hand, either eye, standing, kneeling or laying on my back or stomach at the legal distances in mn. That's why i carry them. Each state is different but most are 21 feet or less. If you engage beyond that expect to lose the legal battle so the whole target shooting aspect is bogus. Your aiming at center mass not a hand or foot. Holsters? Come on. If you can hide a 1911 you can hide a vaquero. There are plenty of people that can make any type holster you want. It boils down to carry what you want. Nobody else's opinion matters. If your going to carry it, practice with it. Know it's strengths and weaknesses. If you are confident that your next gun fight will be an average gun fight you might be right. If you hit your targets then collateral damage won't occur. If you miss, and lord know we do that in non threatening situations like a CAS match, then if it goes to trial against you, the courts will have to take into account whether you used reasonable care in what you were doing or if you were careless. That happens whether you use 6 rounds or 16 rounds. Revolvers do have high primer jams though, contrary to your statement. They also have several other failure modes as well. How many rounds you fire is irrelevant to any discussion, how many you throw all over the place without hitting a target might matter though, if you miss a lot. If it takes 4-5 to put some drug fueled guy down, and his buddy needs the same, you are ... well screwed is probably the politest term . . . I can do most of those tricks your talking about too, but I'm not as good at them when I'm getting shot at, or when some group of rascals is starting a fight in a tight setting, like a restaurant. Not sure where you get this 21 feet stuff from, most states do not have a legal limit on how far you must be in able to defend yourself - a gun fight is a gun fight, and if the bad guy is shooting from 35 feet, then so are you. I've never heard of an ordinance about legal to engage ranges in any state - more like urban myth crap. As to any potential legal battle - BS. First, you can sue a ham sandwich if you want, but it doesn't mean you'll win. Second. If it's a righteous shooting then it's a righteous shooting, your lawyer will sort that out for you, and no one is bringing a tape measure to a gun fight. A 1911 is less than 1.2 inches thick, a Vaq in .45 Colt is over 1.6 inches thick, and that difference matters to some. You're right, no one elses' opinions matter. However, there are a lot of folks out there who have been in gun fights, and who have spent decades studying what works, and there are self appointed Keyboard Kommando's who frankly don't know Shite! To the OP - there are LEO's and Military folks on this site who have shared some advice, and there are virgin's giving you marital advice, pick your advisers carefully. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I kept a Uberti Thunderer 3.5" barrel in .45 Colt as a truck gun for years. It was not my carry gun, but it was comforting to know that I had a back in the truck. It was also fun to shoot. Clint Smith of Thunderranch did a series of stories using the single-action refolver for CCW. He actually had a suspender rig mare up where he carried the pistols just inside the fron of his pants (he is built differently than me). It seemed a silly series that was likely a stunt due to his publisher wanting more fluff to sell. You always want the upper hand in a confrontation. As many of the biggest bullets that you can carry and accurately deliver seems the best tactic. A flat semi-auto with easy to load mags is the king of this effort. A double action with speed loaders is queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 To the OP - there are LEO's and Military folks on this site who have shared some advice, and there are virgin's giving you marital advice, pick your advisers carefully. SC As the old saying goes..... 'these words have iron'. If you just want to carry a single action, go for it. The PRO is that everyone is going to tell you it looks 'pretty'. When you carry a 1911, Glock, SIG, etc..... no one seems to really care about their beauty. The CON, when the "SHTF", you could find yourself immensely under gunned. There is a reason LEO's carry the type firearms they do. And it ain't to just look pretty. I could feel safe carrying my custom Vaquero, which is a Sheriff Model (3" Octagon barrel) Vaquero in .45 Colt. BUT, my actual carry gun is a SIG P320, in .357 SIG. When the SHTF, I would like to feel more like a big fan, then the poop. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marionmedic Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I read the OP "between the lines" so I will say this.... Life is short. Buy the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Basically, it boils down to how much you want to survive. You should give yourself every advantage possible. That includes using a reliable firearm and caliber you can best effectively employ under extreme stress. Getting yourself some good education and training in tactics that will help ensure your survival in an armed confrontation is also recommended. Don't practice like you would for a SASS match. Practice like your life depends on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 To shadowcatcher you may want to learn the facts and history behind someone before jumping to conclusions about them just because they are young. I have the utmost respect for most officers and all that have served. The majority of my crew have served one branch or another. I will not turn this into a cop bashing thread. They are having enough issues with that elsewhere. Most of it unjustified. I shoot what i like. I have sigs and 1911's i sometimes carry them. They just are not my first choice. If he is going actually carry the vaquero, it beats the heck out of the glock or whatever sitting at home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulp, SASS#28319 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 If favorite gun and time for first shot on target were the only factors in choosing a defense weapon I'd be totin' a '51 Navy. Sadly other factors weigh in to make that a bad choice. So I don't tote a '51 Navy when I go out of the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 To shadowcatcher you may want to learn the facts and history behind someone before jumping to conclusions about them just because they are young. I have the utmost respect for most officers and all that have served. The majority of my crew have served one branch or another. I will not turn this into a cop bashing thread. They are having enough issues with that elsewhere. Most of it unjustified. I shoot what i like. I have sigs and 1911's i sometimes carry them. They just are not my first choice. If he is going actually carry the vaquero, it beats the heck out of the glock or whatever sitting at home I'm not sure what you mean by "legal distance" of 21 ft in Minn in your previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Seargent Tueller developed the drill and the '21 foot' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 An interesting web site that illlustrate different cartridges in different lengths of barrels + some actual factory ammo results. in actual guns. A bench mark, so to speak, when one is talking about short barreled self defense guns and potential ammo performance. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Mike Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 i wonder how many carry spare magazines with their semi auto. Thomas Magnum got shot because he did not carry a spare magazine for his 1911 and he was constantly in shootouts. as for the home, how many keep spare magazines on the night stand? if you are shooting and moving you won't be near the night stand after round 7 or 8 and need to reload. while not an expert by any means, once a cop and soldier, i always thought one should carry what one practices with the most. muscle memory is what kicks in under stress. i once bought a shotgun with a stock that held 4 more rounds, under stress I forgot I had those 4 rounds there.i wasn't used to reloading from there in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Seargent Tueller developed the drill and the '21 foot' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill Just a guess. Well acquainted with the Tueller Drill. Not sure what Evil means by "Legal 21 ft" though. Never heard of that. Legal justification of using deadly force in self defense is that your were in fear of immenent death or great bodily harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Consider this. I say this as a gunfight survivor. What makes you think you'll only be deal'n with one BG and not multiple BGs.? The first thing one should be taught(at least I was at Gunsite and the LASD academy)was to reload immediately, and from cover as soon as possible after your first 'contact'. The reason for this, is most of the time your gun will be empty. That's where a semi-auto comes in handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 i wonder how many carry spare magazines with their semi auto. Thomas Magnum got shot because he did not carry a spare magazine for his 1911 and he was constantly in shootouts. as for the home, how many keep spare magazines on the night stand? if you are shooting and moving you won't be near the night stand after round 7 or 8 and need to reload. while not an expert by any means, once a cop and soldier, i always thought one should carry what one practices with the most. muscle memory is what kicks in under stress. i once bought a shotgun with a stock that held 4 more rounds, under stress I forgot I had those 4 rounds there.i wasn't used to reloading from there in practice. For a house gun,... something to be said about a gun with a platform of 13+1 or 15+1 or 17+1 or ?? capacity, depending on cartridge selection. As well as having a spare carry or house magazine of 13/15/17 capacity Point taken about carrying or having a fresh magazine with you, even thou you have capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Do you wear the musher cap when you carry the .32 or just when you're giving dubious advice? Legal distance by state? Let me stop you there. Here's some good advice: Go and get trained by a responsible instructor certified to teach concealed carry in your state who is knowledgeable about the laws therein. And now, "How to defend yourself against an enemy armed with a banana." Or would you rather a pointed stick?😂 And now for something...completely different! Widder just wanted to tell everyone about his new Sig 320 in .357! On my profile I have selected easy gunfights only, so I'm only going to be attacked once in a lifetime by a guy who has a realistic cap gun and a deep scary voice in broad daylight. Therefore I carry an NAA mini in .22 Short and a box of ammunition. That's 20 reloads. Bottom line is: "It's your thing...do want you wanna do!" Just realize that if you overload your ability with the handicap of a gun you can't really shoot well, the only person on this forum likely to be there to pry you out of the jam is yourself. Equip accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Widder just wanted to tell everyone about his new Sig 320 in .357! /quote] ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Widder just wanted to tell everyone about his new Sig 320 in .357! /quote] ..........Widder Widder, Got any good loads for your 357sig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORNERY OAF Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 For the OP....For the size of a 45 Vaquero, even with the short barrel and wanting to stick with the 45acp, the Glock 30 would be a fine choice, and you could carry a spare glock 21 mag to boot...I can attest to the 30s reliability and accuracy as it has been my issued backup for years. Twice the ammo of the six gun with night sights and a super quick reload....just my 2 cents from 20+ years L/E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Widder, Got any good loads for your 357sig? Yes I do. I'll send you a PM either now (midnight) or sometime tomorrow. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Yes I do. I'll send you a PM either now (midnight) or sometime tomorrow. ..........Widder Got it, Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Howdy, NOW I get it: OP means 'original poster'. Some days I do much better.... Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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