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Hurricane Deck 100366

Whats the Call

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Traditional still had control of cocked pistol, just like GF had control of his. Which lead to the question of when is it holstered.

If you look at the RO1....retuning a cocked pistol to leather is SDQ.....seems to me that once the barrel entered the mouth of the holster the SDQ was earned.

 

The gunfighter in your example holstered and then realized he had made a mistake. Not the same as bolstering with the intent to reuse.

 

Stan

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Traditional still had control of cocked pistol, just like GF had control of his. Which lead to the question of when is it holstered.

The penalty for a cocked revolver makes no reference to holstered. It says returned to leather.

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I hope that you Gunfighters don't take offense at what I'm about to say... but...

 

Even if you have just a year or two under your belt as a gunfighter, you didn't START out that skilled. Far from it. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that you all had a fair amount of phoopahs before you began to improve your shooting speed. Might be only one or two... but of what type... cocking the wrong gun... short stroking the hammer, maybe even a AD... luckily it was downrange and not otherwise a safety infraction.

 

The point is, SASS doesn't have skill classifications... so the most skilled gunfighter is categorized with the neophyte. Unlike many other shooting sports, speed events especially, there's no prohibition against having your finger on the trigger except when pointed downrange. Personally, IMO, this leads to potentially poor habits. Keepking all those factors in mind, do you skilled gunfighters really believe that ANY gunfighter should be allowed to holster his pistols for a split string. Remember, you have to include the fellar that's never shot his brand new slicked, short-stroked Rugers before and decides he wants to try Gunfighter. Like revolutions, a redundancy in rules every once in a while might be a good thing.

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The penalty for a cocked revolver makes no reference to holstered. It says returned to leather.

Thanks, but that is still vague, considering shooter still has control of pistol.

 

Same question, what is the threshold of returning to leather that draws the penalty and where is that stated?

 

For example, if you return a book to the library, did you accomplish the task if you only make it to the parking lot? inserted book into the dropoff chute but hadn't released it and pulled book back out? or when you placed book in proper book return spot and took your hand away.

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If you look at the RO1....retuning a cocked pistol to leather is SDQ.....seems to me that once the barrel entered the mouth of the holster the SDQ was earned.

 

The gunfighter in your example holstered and then realized he had made a mistake. Not the same as bolstering with the intent to reuse.

 

Stan

Entering into the mouth of holster is fine, but it is not stated anywhere and only an opinion. It could be too, once shooter relinquishes control of pistol, another opinion. That;s all,

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"........................, do you skilled gunfighters really believe that ANY gunfighter should be allowed to holster his pistols for a split string.

 

 

Howdy Griff.

 

This is just a guess of mine, but I would venture to say that the more skilled a GF as become, the more some of them probably support the present rules/guidelines.

 

Possum Skinner is a previous WORLD CHAMP GF. I think he supports the present rules.

 

 

..........Widder

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Entering into the mouth of holster is fine, but it is not stated anywhere and only an opinion. It could be too, once shooter relinquishes control of pistol, another opinion. That;s all,

What's the definition of "in hand" ?

 

Stan

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There is no difference for the GF shooting Doible Duelist except they don't have both pistols out at the same time.....once again your argument lacks solid ground.

 

You and RK really are showing a lack of understanding about the sport and its nuances.

It makes a difference if I am doubling my splits in duelist because my thumbs aren't super fast yet and I am compensating with the alternating between the two guns.

 

Stan,

I respect you for your demonstrated ability. You are a truly talented shooter. CAS is my SIXTH competitve shooting discipline and and rulebook. My lacking understanding of this particular discipline lies in the fact that I erroneously haven't read RO1&2 also because I'm not an RO1&2. I came to this conclusion the other day and apparently I need to read them both. My frustration stems in large part from the amazing freedom of gunfighter category being able to shoot two pistols at once, but then it is hobbled with rules that don't make sense to me. I'm going to read all the books and see how much I can assuage my confusion.

Best,

CG

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What's the definition of "in hand" ?

 

Stan

You got it.

 

Is returning to leather the same as reholstering? I tend to think so.

 

I believe I use 'in control' but we can go down that slippery slope too. I am good with a judgement call from TO on what is 'in control' Either you are in control, or you are not. No shades of gray are allowed on this one.

 

I believe if TO is going to issue a penalty such as the ones we are discussing, he should be able to show the shooter exactly what it is in the rule books shooter violated, and not go off memory from some discussion from some past Wire thread. A wishful thought.

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I hope that you Traditional and Duelist shooters don't take offense at what I'm about to say... but...

 

Even if you have just a year or two under your belt as a Traditional or Duelist shooters, you didn't START out that skilled. Far from it. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that you all had a fair amount of phoopahs before you began to improve your shooting speed. Might be only one or two... but of what type... short stroking the hammer, maybe even a AD... luckily it was downrange and not otherwise a safety infraction.

 

The point is, SASS doesn't have skill classifications...my safety concern is that during the transfer of a pistol from the week hand to the strong hand there is an increased chance of cocking the hammer prior to the completion of the transfer and the loss of control resulting in the possibility of a drop pistol. A layer of safety should be put in place to keep this from happening. The transfer of pistols from one hand to the other should be outlawed. Traditional and Duelist shooters have two options available to them. The use of two strong side holsters would require the shooter to shoot double tradition/duelist. Right hand right gun, left hand left gun. Shooting with a cross draw rig would require the shooter to draw and holster with only the strong hand.

 

This is a problem with new and experienced shooters. New shooters don't have control and experienced shooters push the speed of transitions. Both of these could result in a gun which could be cocked being dropped.

 

Stan there is your pot.........let it simmer for awhile ;):P

 

Griff thanks for the opening

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You got it.

 

Is returning to leather the same as reholstering? I tend to think so.

 

I believe I use 'in control' but we can go down that slippery slope too. I am good with a judgement call from TO on what is 'in control' Either you are in control, or you are not. No shades of gray are allowed on this one.

 

I believe if TO is going to issue a penalty such as the ones we are discussing, he should be able to show the shooter exactly what it is in the rule books shooter violated, and not go off memory from some discussion from some past Wire thread. A wishful thought.

 

Penalty is the SDQ for UNSAFE FIREARM HANDLING as soon as he's headed to the holster with a cocked revolver.

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Howdy Blastmaster.

 

NO PENALTY on the GF.

 

The GF could have actually removed his hands (assuming neither hammer was cocked) and then Redraws both pistols to finish the stage scenario.

 

OOPS..... I had this wrong and PWB has already posted the deal.

 

 

PWB: I was thinking that because the TRAD shooter hadn't removed his hand from his pistol, he still could correct the cocked hammer situation. The shooter would also have to decock that pistol with TO's approval.

 

QUESTION: along with the SDQ, if the shooter removed that cocked pistol and decocked it down range WITHOUT the TO's approval, would the shooter also earn the penalty for that?

Yes...MDQ for two SDQ violations on the same stage ... separate actions.

 

 

..........Widder

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I hope that you Traditional and Duelist shooters don't take offense at what I'm about to say... but...

 

Even if you have just a year or two under your belt as a Traditional or Duelist shooters, you didn't START out that skilled. Far from it. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that you all had a fair amount of phoopahs before you began to improve your shooting speed. Might be only one or two... but of what type... short stroking the hammer, maybe even a AD... luckily it was downrange and not otherwise a safety infraction.

 

The point is, SASS doesn't have skill classifications...my safety concern is that during the transfer of a pistol from the week hand to the strong hand there is an increased chance of cocking the hammer prior to the completion of the transfer and the loss of control resulting in the possibility of a drop pistol. A layer of safety should be put in place to keep this from happening. The transfer of pistols from one hand to the other should be outlawed. Traditional and Duelist shooters have two options available to them. The use of two strong side holsters would require the shooter to shoot double tradition/duelist. Right hand right gun, left hand left gun. Shooting with a cross draw rig would require the shooter to draw and holster with only the strong hand.

 

This is a problem with new and experienced shooters. New shooters don't have control and experienced shooters push the speed of transitions. Both of these could result in a gun which could be cocked being dropped.

 

Stan there is your pot.........let it simmer for awhile ;):P

 

Griff thanks for the opening

Yet again another red herring from the GFs as that "possibility" is not a common part of the traditional shooting style. It is already against the rules for a traditional shooter to change hands with a cocked gun.

 

Can't you guys come up with a real reason? A plausible reason? Or at least concede that the probability of cocked guns with live rounds being holstered would rise among the GF if they were allowed to re-holster.

 

Whereas that probability is not as great a concern for traditional style shooters since they still would not have a real reason to do it.

 

Note I said cocked with live rounds and that's exactly what it would be for the GF.

 

Yes I have seen traditional style shooters holster cocked guns. The ones I've seen have been after the gun was shot dry. I know of one example where the gun had live rounds and the shooter ended up with a shot leg. It was drawn at the wrong time if I recall correctly....I did not witness it.

 

 

Stan

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Penalty is the SDQ for UNSAFE FIREARM HANDLING as soon as he's headed to the holster with a cocked revolver.

PWB, I want to get clarification on this. Two handed shooter, I shoot 4 rounds, cock for 5th round, lose my train of thought and take my weak hand off of cocked, loaded gun. When does the SDQ occur? Past 45 degrees? Exactly where does "headed for the holster" mean?

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Redwood Kid,

Maybe when you get a little more experience you'll be able to see the difference. Maybe.

Brilliant rebuttal there. "You ain't been in the game long enough to understand this kinds of stuff so come back later when you do"

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I guess this question is for PWB specifically, but all opinions are welcome.

 

Is it a penalty if a GF shoots only 9 rounds and re-holsters (and lets add removes hands from guns), then either realizes the mistake or is told there is "one more" and draws either or both guns and fires the remaining round.

 

I don't believe it should be because the rule uses the word 'intent'. Obviously, no one would do this intentionally.

 

 

I read through all of these posts and could not see where this was clearly addressed.

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I guess this question is for PWB specifically, but all opinions are welcome.

 

Is it a penalty if a GF shoots only 9 rounds and re-holsters (and lets add removes hands from guns), then either realizes the mistake or is told there is "one more" and draws either or both guns and fires the remaining round.

 

I don't believe it should be because the rule uses the word 'intent'. Obviously, no one would do this intentionally.

 

 

I read through all of these posts and could not see where this was clearly addressed.

 

Intent is critical to the application of the rule/penalty.

That's been quoted numerous times throughout this thread,

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Intent is critical to the application of the rule/penalty.

Ok, good

 

That's been quoted numerous times throughout this thread,

Yes it has, in one context and another but I did not see where this particular situation was clearly addressed.

 

I do appreciate your response and please indulge me if I seem dense or ignorant but was that a

'yes' or a 'no' to my question?

 

 

edit; My reason for asking is this just came up in a discussion after our match on Sunday and the MD stated he would award a penalty to a gunfighter that committed this act. His interpretation seems to be that once the guns have been fired and holstered, they can't come back out without the penalty.

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Both revolvers may be cocked at the same time, but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring. A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence. Once cocked, all rounds must be expended prior to holstering unless the revolvers were drawn at the wrong time or a revolver/ammunition malfunction has occurred. Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification.​

SHB p.14

 

That would be an incorrect interpretation of the rule.

If a GF-style shooter holsters one or both revolvers before completing the revolver shooting string currently being engaged, he may immediately "redraw" to finish that sequence without penalty.

...provided the hammer(s) are down on spent rounds or empty chambers when holstered.

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Penalty is the SDQ for UNSAFE FIREARM HANDLING as soon as he's headed to the holster with a cocked revolver.

I like this one too. Makes more sense that the others and can be pretty much a judgement call without protractors and compasses.

 

Now, as I understand it, SASS rules allows shooter to sweep themselves during the process of drawing and returning pistol to/from holsters. No problems so long as hammer down on empty and there is a rule about having to get past 45 degrees before cocking gun.. Gunfighters may have two cocked pistols out and past 45 degrrees. I've witnessed numberous times of GF'ers pumping their pistols while engaging the targets. Pumping pistols meaning radical changes of pistol extensions/lead. Meaning one pistol way forward/aim/fire while other pistol is pulled back and somewhere cocked for next shot, and thus, back and forth with two pistols. In that process, back pistol may be pointed generally toward lead pistol hand/forearm and hammer is cocked,,, but that is OK but not necessarily preferred. Seems like poor and unsafe gun handling too. Perhaps it is considered unsafe for GF to do such and I have allowed/witnessed it incorrectly.

 

Thoughts from the crowd?

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SHB p.14

 

That would be an incorrect interpretation of the rule.

If a GF-style shooter holsters one or both revolvers before completing the revolver shooting string currently being engaged, he may immediately "redraw" to finish that sequence without penalty.

...provided the hammer(s) are down on spent rounds or empty chambers when holstered.

 

Thank you!

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Yet again another red herring from the GFs as that "possibility" is not a common part of the traditional shooting style. It is already against the rules for a traditional shooter to change hands with a cocked gun. It is already against the rules to holster a cocked pistol, but no additional safety layer is in place for a Traditional/Duelist shooter. We've beat this horse to the ground. How do we address the "possibility" of changing hands/dropping a cocked loaded pistol.

 

Can't you guys come up with a real reason? A plausible reason? Or at least concede that the probability of cocked guns with live rounds being holstered would rise among the GF if they were allowed to re-holster. You and I have been doing this long enough to know anything is possible. Do you have any facts to support this rise, or is that just a gut feeling? Have you ever seen a gunfighter transfer a cocked pistol from one hand to the other?

 

Whereas that probability is not as great a concern for traditional style shooters since they still would not have a real reason to do it. True, Traditional shooters don't have a real reason or a spotless record. Yet nobody gives it a much thought

 

Note I said cocked with live rounds and that's exactly what it would be for the GF. At the last match five of the six stages did not end with pistols. All GF's present successfully re holstered their pistols at the end of the string with hammers down on empty chambers on the clock

 

Yes I have seen traditional style shooters holster cocked guns. The ones I've seen have been after the gun was shot dry. I know of one example where the gun had live rounds and the shooter ended up with a shot leg. It was drawn at the wrong time if I recall correctly....I did not witness it.

I remember three........only one was loaded

 

Stan

 

Is there an additional penalty for intentionally committing a procedural? Hmmmm!

 

It seems this topic has instigated conversations at several matches recently. I like it!

 

Y'all have shown passion in a lot your responses

 

Again, I don't believe the rule will ever be overturned and I'm perfectly fine with that. Safety is number one.

 

This has been fun...........carry on

 

;)Conversation has always been the agenda ;)

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Wyatt....Evil Black Star Jedi of Lurking and Instigating, I think Allie Meaux got it right...lol :D:D

 

Kajun

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Is there an additional penalty for intentionally committing a procedural? Hmmmm!

 

It seems this topic has instigated conversations at several matches recently. I like it!

 

Y'all have shown passion in a lot your responses

 

Again, I don't believe the rule will ever be overturned and I'm perfectly fine with that. Safety is number one.

 

This has been fun...........carry on

 

;)Conversation has always been the agenda ;)

I'm curious as to how often people are seeing gun fighters stage guns on a prop with hammers up. Personally, I have yet to see it once, but if it's rampant at all the other clubs then I can understand why some gun fighters are vehemently against it. I'm going to guess that it is not an issue otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to stage them either. I'm not going to argue that there isn't an element of danger in holstering guns (knowingly or otherwise) with ammo in them, but gunfighter category is twice as dangerous as one handed shooting because you have two guns out instead of one. That's why we practice so hard at it, and for the most part, are much slower doing so. Not that gun fighters are slow, but I have yet to meet one that couldn't run a stage faster shooting two handed than they could gunfighter. I would say on the whole we're a safer lot because we are aware of the dangers involved. I don't see holstering any different

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By staging guns on a prop with hammers up do you mean cocked? If so I don't think you'll ever see anyone do that intentionally as there is a small penalty attached.

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Not that gun fighters are slow, but I have yet to meet one that couldn't run a stage faster shooting two handed than they could gunfighter.

You need to get out more.

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You need to get out more.

we taint met!! oops twas meant for redwood kid

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we taint met!! oops twas meant for redwood kid

No sir, we taint, but I'd sure like to.

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I'm curious as to how often people are seeing gun fighters stage guns on a prop with hammers up.

If you mean "cocked", an observant T/O is more likely to see one or the other revolver as it was going to the prop much easier than trying to see the condition of both revolvers going into holsters with one on each side of the shooter.

That, along with the risk of a "double cocker" cocking for a 6th shot in a split revolver string (either before staging or movement) were the two primary objections to allowing "shoot 5/holster/.../redraw & shoot the next 5" for GF-style shooters.

Those objections came mainly from the Territorial Governors who were shooting in a GF category at that time in SASS history.

 

Personally, I have yet to see it once, but if it's rampant at all the other clubs then I can understand why some gun fighters are vehemently against it. I'm going to guess that it is not an issue otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to stage them either. I'm not going to argue that there isn't an element of danger in holstering guns (knowingly or otherwise) with ammo in them, but gunfighter category is twice as dangerous as one handed shooting because you have two guns out instead of one. That's why we practice so hard at it, and for the most part, are much slower doing so. Not that gun fighters are slow, but I have yet to meet one that couldn't run a stage faster shooting two handed than they could gunfighter. I would say on the whole we're a safer lot because we are aware of the dangers involved. I don't see holstering any different

 

Gunfighter has always been considered an "advanced shooting category" with a number of 'special' rules, regulations, and allowances.

When it was first proposed to allow it in competition, it was recommended to have some kind of "certification" or proficiency testing.

Some clubs still require some kind of safety training/demonstration.

Liability concerns did away with that requirement for SASS in general, but the category is still not recommended for the neophyte CAShooter.

We choose to shoot in that style for various reasons, including the challenge of manipulating two revolvers out at once ambidextrously.

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No sir, we taint, but I'd sure like to.

I'm one of those who can't shoot revolvers faster traditional style,,, only did it for 3 matches when I started and then went to duelist and then GF for my second year,, usually wasn't pretty when I did it for BW occasionally either..

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Be warned, his purdiness can be a bit blinding and he's notorious with the ladies.

why thank yu sir!!!

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PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L, on 04 Apr 2016 - 9:34 PM, said:snapback.png

 

Penalty is the SDQ for UNSAFE FIREARM HANDLING as soon as he's headed to the holster with a cocked revolver.

PWB, I want to get clarification on this. Two handed shooter, I shoot 4 rounds, cock for 5th round, lose my train of thought and take my weak hand off of cocked, loaded gun. When does the SDQ occur? Past 45 degrees? Exactly where does "headed for the holster" mean?

 

PWB, could you give me a clarification on this, please?

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Gunfighter has always been considered an "advanced shooting category" with a number of 'special' rules, regulations, and allowances.

When it was first proposed to allow it in competition, it was recommended to have some kind of "certification" or proficiency testing.

Some clubs still require some kind of safety training/demonstration.

Liability concerns did away with that requirement for SASS in general, but the category is still not recommended for the neophyte CAShooter.

We choose to shoot in that style for various reasons, including the challenge of manipulating two revolvers out at once ambidextrously.

Thanks PW. As usual, you provide much needed insight. For me, I couldn't see that much of a difference between staging and holstering, but I am speaking from the perspective of the shooter and not the TO, so I can definitely see your point. In my limited experience, I have only TO'd one match and I did catch a two handed shooter about to holster a cocked gun. If it had been a gunfighter, I probably would have missed the second one.

 

 

I'm one of those who can't shoot revolvers faster traditional style,,, only did it for 3 matches when I started and then went to duelist and then GF for my second year,, usually wasn't pretty when I did it for BW occasionally either..

Well in all fairness I am the same. I just figured I was the anomaly that can't shoot a revolver two handed. I'm all thumbs trying to figure out what to do with the other hand. I also went to gunfighter after my first match and never looked back. I didn't want to use myself as an example because I am not even remotely in the fast shooter category. Especially since I went black. I am in the shooter having the most fun category though.

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PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L, on 04 Apr 2016 - 9:34 PM, said:snapback.png

PWB, I want to get clarification on this. Two handed shooter, I shoot 4 rounds, cock for 5th round, lose my train of thought and take my weak hand off of cocked, loaded gun. When does the SDQ occur? Past 45 degrees? Exactly where does "headed for the holster" mean?

 

PWB, could you give me a clarification on this, please?

 

 

The ROC is working on a clearly stated rule on this following discussions at Winter Range.

The "working statement" at this time is the following:

If a shooter appears to be attempting to holster a cocked revolver (loaded or not) by moving the muzzle away from the targets toward the holster, that would be considered (and listed) as an example of UNSAFE FIREARM HANDLING subject to a SDQ for THAT offense.

 

This could be applied regardless of holster type, but would require that the T/O be actually LOOKING AT THE FIREARM as we already instruct them to do. Application would be based on a judgment call, but would be initiated as soon as the shooter pulls the muzzle(s) off the target array, indicated that s/he is finished with the engagement.

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