Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Hurricane Deck 100366

Whats the Call

Recommended Posts

I didn't get it either and asked about it many moons ago. The experienced GFs spoke the most stridently against the practice. Maybe some of them will answer.

 

All I remember was they were worried about holstering a cocked gun. Seems to me there is already a penalty for that and this prohibition is a bit like the old rule (now deleted) about picking up dropped rounds. The majority decided the penalty for breaking the 170 or having a pistol fall out of the holster was sufficient and we didn't need to penalize something that wasn't inherently unsafe.

 

In this case we are trying to prevent something (holstering a cocked gun) that might not happen.

 

:ph34r:

There was, once upon a time, a Wild Bunch member who was adamantly opposed to any and all "one-handed" shooting. Maybe Gunfghter even more than Duelist. Didn't want it included in any stages, and certainly didn't want a category that allowed or encouraged it. Some of these rules were placed to appease that member. Time, and a widespread call for such categories, plus the showing that such additional restrictions would, hopefully, preclude such unsafe acts, as in holstering a cocked gun, and over a period of time where these were done on a stage by stage basis, or in limited test areas overcame his objections. The additional restriction, especially with gunfighter have remained. Remember, EOT started in 1982, Duelist wasn't an official category until 1993, and Gunfighter in 1999.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A case could be made for not allowing the reholstering of revolvers in any category in an attempt to prevent unsafe acts

 

Call me CRAZY :wacko: .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We talked about it at today's match. The only time we thought there would be a problem (forcing to shoot duelist) with GF'er would be 'if' there was no prop to restage pistols while shooting a long gun in between pistol strings. Gosh, has/is this a problem for the GF that has issues? This situation has been in existence for 30? years.

 

As always, get it on the ballot and see who salutes it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A case could be made for not allowing the reholstering of revolvers in any category in an attempt to prevent unsafe acts

 

Call me CRAZY :wacko:

CRAZY! :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gosh and golly gee Blastmaster

 

For someone who, on another topic, claims not to have "a dog in this fight".............you sure have been on the porch barking like a dog in heat

 

Change has to start somewhere. The wire seems like a the place to have a discussion.

 

Will the rule ever be changed............probably not. Is it fair to have a penalty just for GF's.............IMHO No!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You bet! Here's an example.

 

Stage instructions

 

10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4+ shotgun

 

Shotgun and rifle staged on table at position B.

 

Order is pistol, shotgun, rifle, pistol

 

Starting at position A. Alternate on the two pistol targets for 5 rounds. Move to position B and place both pistols on the table. With the shotgun shoot the 4 KD's till down. Make shotgun safe. With rifle alternate for 10 shots on the two rifle targets. Make rifle safe. Retrieve both pistols and move to position C and alternate on the two pistol targets for 5 round

 

Do you think a traditional two handed shooter or duelist would enjoy shooting that stage or call the stage writer CRAZY and threaten to never come back?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So since holstering is such a percieved danger, how come other categories can "do it all day long with no call?" This rule is obviously placed as a trip wire against gunfighter. There are no rules stating that cowboys must shoot duelist in certain situations. Why not put an addendum in place that gunfighters must be able to safely stage their guns for split pistol stages?

 

 

 

It turns out we were worried about nothing at all. It's all in the wording:

"A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence." This puts my mind at ease. No gunfighter in his or her right mind would ever do this, but I might holster my revolvers after five shots with the intent of picking up my rifle or shotgun and engaging that sequence. I also might draw my revolvers again afterward to engage the second revolver sequence, but that wasn't why I holstered them now was it?😀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One reason is that with I have experienced gunfighters holstering a cocked pistol several times - even with a live round in one of them once.

 

You cannot see both sides of the shooter and it is too difficult to see and stop before they have holstered. That is further exacerbated in that some gunfighters keep their fingers on the trigger.

 

So the TO is required to watch two revolvers, one on each side of the person, at the same time to be sure they are safe. It is just too much risk and in such cases there is no longer essentially so safety "layer". So the T.O. then must watch as someone pulls a possibly loaded, cocked revolver without touching the trigger. So I can understand why SASS would not want that possible liability and concern.

 

I do believe in the need for layered safety but generally not layered rules - where a rule is in place to avoid breaking another rule. But since this is a situation fraught with risk without an additional layer or safety, I can understand the need for this rule.

 

And who said we were always in our right mind ? :D :D :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I forget to mention that at todays match we had a shooter holster a cocked pistol.

 

Did I forget to mention the shooter was shooting two handed :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wyatt, is that a good thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So since holstering is such a percieved danger, how come other categories can "do it all day long with no call?" This rule is obviously placed as a trip wire against gunfighter. There are no rules stating that cowboys must shoot duelist in certain situations. Why not put an addendum in place that gunfighters must be able to safely stage their guns for split pistol stages?

 

 

 

It turns out we were worried about nothing at all. It's all in the wording:

"A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence." This puts my mind at ease. No gunfighter in his or her right mind would ever do this, but

I might holster my revolvers after five shots with the intent of picking up my rifle or shotgun and engaging that sequence. I also might draw my revolvers again afterward to engage the second revolver sequence, but that wasn't why I holstered them now was it?

 

You'd lose that argument and get the "P" for "First offence, in the same match, for failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which the shooter is competing"

...unless it was the 2nd or 3rd time for that type of violation.

 

​REF also: POST #44

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You bet! Here's an example.

 

Stage instructions

 

10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4+ shotgun

 

Shotgun and rifle staged on table at position B.

 

Order is pistol, shotgun, rifle, pistol

 

Starting at position A. Alternate on the two pistol targets for 5 rounds. Move to position B and place both pistols on the table. With the shotgun shoot the 4 KD's till down. Make shotgun safe. With rifle alternate for 10 shots on the two rifle targets. Make rifle safe. Retrieve both pistols and move to position C and alternate on the two pistol targets for 5 round

 

Do you think a traditional two handed shooter or duelist would enjoy shooting that stage or call the stage writer CRAZY and threaten to never come back?

I have no problem with your stage (split pistols). Sounds like fun and would be a much welcome change for me. I presume (hope) shooter could choose starting pistol position be on either side of stage (left or right side) so shooter could address their long guns to their strength. In other words, is Position A always on the left side? As a traditional two handed shooter, I would be trying to decide which pistol to pull first (strong side or weak side), and where is the starting position for hands would have influence on that decision. Ya said I could make rifle safe, which means I could take it with me to final position C, Hmmmm, that could help me seal the decide which pistol to pull first back at Position A. Then one would have to evaluate if there is any flunky stuff happening with target placement at Position B. WhileI am rambling off the topic of does split pistols bother me,,,,, no it does not. :)

 

Gunfighters have the option of pulling both pistols and engage as you indicated or shoot duelist. It would suck if there was not enough table room at Position B to safely and conveniently restage GF pistols for later use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marauder that's sure is an odd question that I don't know how to answer

 

In 15 years I have seen several cocked pistols holstered, all have been two handed shooters

 

Is there any other shooting sport that allows a pistol to be reholstered without showing clear to the RO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At our match, a GF forgot to load his pistols on one stage. Beep, followed by click, click. Good thing pistols were first firearms to be used . Stuff happens

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So as a TO, how do I stand on both sides of a non gunfighter that's drawing shooting and holstering after each shot? He allowed to do it...and drawing and holstering guns in each hand isn't necessarily a strong suit.

 

At today's match we played look how far I can turn up range before my guns are fully holstered. Apparently just the tip of the barrel into leather and then...you do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no problem with your stage (split pistols). Sounds like fun and would be a much welcome change for me. I presume (hope) shooter could choose starting pistol position be on either side of stage (left or right side) so shooter could address their long guns to their strength. In other words, is Position A always on the left side? As a traditional two handed shooter, I would be trying to decide which pistol to pull first (strong side or weak side), and where is the starting position for hands would have influence on that decision. Ya said I could make rifle safe, which means I could take it with me to final position C, Hmmmm, that could help me seal the decide which pistol to pull first back at Position A. Then one would have to evaluate if there is any flunky stuff happening with target placement at Position B. WhileI am rambling off the topic of does split pistols bother me,,,,, no it does not. :)

 

Gunfighters have the option of pulling both pistols and engage as you indicated or shoot duelist. It would suck if there was not enough table room at Position B to safely and conveniently restage GF pistols for later use.

 

Why would you take your rifle to position C and leave your pistols on the table at B? Your gonna need them to complete the stage instructions and shoot 5 pistol rounds at C

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Why would you take your rifle to position C and leave your pistols on the table at B? Your gonna need them to complete the stage instructions and shoot 5 pistol rounds at C

I was responding as a two handed shooter and I did state that in my post :)

 

Edit: and yes, as a two handed shooter, I am allowed by the rules to reholster an empty pistol, and pistols with live rounds not under the hammer. We all know that. On the flip side, I can not have two loaded pistols out at the same time. So 'if' I should happen to leave a live round in first pistol and reholstered, and I've pulled second pistol out but have not cocked it, I need to reholster second pistol, draw first pistol to finish, reholster and then draw second pistol to continue, that is, if I do not want a penalty.

 

Edit-Edit, I am not for sure if a two handed shooter can even have two pistols (empty or not) out (discounting stage directions stating pistols must be prestaged on prop) at same time. I am betting that you can not have two pistols out at same time.

 

ROI-pg33,

 

Two handed shooting style – aka “Traditional-style” - shooter holds a single revolver with two hands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was responding as a two handed shooter and I did state that in my post :)

 

Edit: and yes, as a two handed shooter, I am allowed by the rules to reholster an empty pistol, and pistols with live rounds not under the hammer. We all know that. On the flip side, I can not have two loaded pistols out at the same time. So 'if' I should happen to leave a live round in first pistol and reholstered, and I've pulled second pistol out but have not cocked it, I need to reholster second pistol, draw first pistol to finish, reholster and then draw second pistol to continue, that is, if I do not want a penalty.

 

Edit-Edit, I am not for sure if a two handed shooter can even have two pistols (empty or not) out (discounting stage directions stating pistols must be prestaged on prop) at same time.

I am betting that you can not have two pistols out at same time.

You lose.

 

ROI-pg33,

 

Two handed shooting style – aka “Traditional-style” - shooter holds a single revolver with two hands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to make this more complicated: Let's say Gunfighter Joe shoots 9, thinks he's done. Holsters pistols. Starts picking up rifle. TO hollers, "One more." Gunfighter Joe lays rifle back down pulls pistols, shoots 10th shot, then on to other gun(s). Perfectly legal.

 

Scenario is guns in any order. Round count stage. Gunfighter Joe shoots 9 pistol shots, thinks he's done. Picks up rifle. TO hollers, "One more in pistols." Gunfighter Joe shoots rifle. Lays in back down. Pulls pistol(s), shoots 10th shot ... Perfectly legal.

 

These instances were legal because, while Gunfighter Joe can't count worth a hoot, he didn't holster with the intent to re-engage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stage instructions:

 

 

Order is pistol, pistol, rifle, shotgun

 

The Shooter shot pistol, pistol, pistol, pistol...

 

Am I understanding correctly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to make this more complicated: Let's say Gunfighter Joe shoots 9, thinks he's done. Holsters pistols. Starts picking up rifle. TO hollers, "One more." Gunfighter Joe lays rifle back down pulls pistols, shoots 10th shot, then on to other gun(s). Perfectly legal.

 

Scenario is guns in any order. Round count stage. Gunfighter Joe shoots 9 pistol shots, thinks he's done. Picks up rifle. TO hollers, "One more in pistols." Gunfighter Joe shoots rifle. Lays in back down. Pulls pistol(s), shoots 10th shot ... Perfectly legal.

 

These instances were legal because, while Gunfighter Joe can't count worth a hoot, he didn't holster with the intent to re-engage.

 

 

++++

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any other shooting sport that allows a pistol to be reholstered without showing clear to the RO

USPSA, IDPA, and 3gun have toyed with hot re holstering.

Each has had bad experiences with shooters having negligent discharges while hot re holstering.

 

SASS does have the rules stating hammers down on empty or fired chambers when holstering, theoretically this would eliminate the AD's but adherence to those rules would seem to have to be absolute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In 15 years I have seen several cocked pistols holstered, all have been two handed shooters

 

Is there any other shooting sport that allows a pistol to be reholstered without showing clear to the RO

Figures. Gunfighter category shooters tend to be more adroit with the pistols per capita.

 

Idpa Classifier...runs hot for 90 rounds through multiple strings.

Between strings during a stage in idpa, USPSA, ZSA, and 3gun the guns are kept hot and often administratively reloaded in between strings and holstered or slung.

All of this is done under the auspices of the RO, but there is no ULSC between strings. Every discipline I know of reholsters hot guns off the clock and shooters are reminded that it is not a timed evolution and to proceed safely.

 

Still looking for equal application of the rule across all categories.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was responding as a two handed shooter and I did state that in my post :)

 

Edit: and yes, as a two handed shooter, I am allowed by the rules to reholster an empty pistol, and pistols with live rounds not under the hammer. We all know that. On the flip side, I can not have two loaded pistols out at the same time. So 'if' I should happen to leave a live round in first pistol and reholstered, and I've pulled second pistol out but have not cocked it, I need to reholster second pistol, draw first pistol to finish, reholster and then draw second pistol to continue, that is, if I do not want a penalty.

 

Edit-Edit, I am not for sure if a two handed shooter can even have two pistols (empty or not) out (discounting stage directions stating pistols must be prestaged on prop) at same time. I am betting that you can not have two pistols out at same time.

 

ROI-pg33,

 

Two handed shooting style – aka “Traditional-style” - shooter holds a single revolver with two hands

 

:blink: ....OK :lol: Thanks for making me laugh this morning

Let me attempt to answer you in a language you can hear.

Bark, bark, bark, wolf, bark, howl, bark, sniff, growl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please do NOT change this rule. Gunfighters are MUCH more apt to holster a cocked pistol than a two-handed shooter. Why? It's simple, we have more going on in the first place and when we occasionally have to shoot 5 and move you have to remember we are cocking one pistol 3 times and the other twice.

 

Now you say, "There is already a penalty for holstering a cocked gun." Sure there is, but if a gunfighter gets used to doing that and something changes, (e.g. a gun hic-ups) the gunfighter could very easily holster their pistol with it cocked over a live round.

 

JUST SAY NO! There's a reason you don't see gunfighters arguing to get rid of this rule.

Just because we can, doesn't mean we have to (if the rule was changed that is). So I don't get your objection. Please don't give me another option?

 

But in reality, I agree with Wyatt. If the rule is changed at all, the gunfighter rule should be applied to all shooting styles and just made either a P or MSV instead of the progressive 'shooting out of style' penalty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Figures. Gunfighter category shooters tend to be more adroit with the pistols per capita.

 

Idpa Classifier...runs hot for 90 rounds through multiple strings.

Between strings during a stage in idpa, USPSA, ZSA, and 3gun the guns are kept hot and often administratively reloaded in between strings and holstered or slung.

All of this is done under the auspices of the RO, but there is no ULSC between strings. Every discipline I know of reholsters hot guns off the clock and shooters are reminded that it is not a timed evolution and to proceed safely.

 

Still looking for equal application of the rule across all categories.

Can you come up with a reasonable/common stage scenario when a traditional style shooter would WANT to reholster a pistol with unfired rounds in it with the intent of using that pistol again?

 

Stan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Figures. Gunfighter category shooters tend to be more adroit with the pistols per capita.

 

Idpa Classifier...runs hot for 90 rounds through multiple strings.

Between strings during a stage in idpa, USPSA, ZSA, and 3gun the guns are kept hot and often administratively reloaded in between strings and holstered or slung.

All of this is done under the auspices of the RO, but there is no ULSC between strings. Every discipline I know of reholsters hot guns off the clock and shooters are reminded that it is not a timed evolution and to proceed safely.

 

Still looking for equal application of the rule across all categories.

That has not been my experience. Most of the gunfighters I know are much better shooting with their offhand than a two handed shooter, but they certainly haven't been more skilled with pistols as a group. It's been my observation that with a few exceptions they shoot pistols slower than two handed shooters and are more likely to miss with pistols.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you come up with a reasonable/common stage scenario when a traditional style shooter would WANT to reholster a pistol with unfired rounds in it with the intent of using that pistol again?

 

Stan

Reasonable being shoot five shots in one spot? Or can I mix it up?

 

Three positions P/R/S: Number of rounds at positions by P/R/S with shooting sequence underneath...For clarity.

 

___3/3@#1____________4/4@#2____________3/3/2@#3

____1-1-1______________1-2-1___________1-1-1 & 2KD

_Pistol/Rifle_____Pistol/Rifle_____Pistol/Rifle/SG

 

 

Or

 

____4/5@#1____________2/5/2@#2__________4/0/4@#3

__1-2-1/1-3-1_____1-0-1/1-3-1/2KD_____1-2-1/0/4KD

_Pistol/Rifle_____Pistol/Rifle/SG______Pistol/SG

 

 

Carrying a rifle and later shotgun between positions and having flexibility to vary the number of pistol shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reasonable being shoot five shots in one spot? Or can I mix it up?

 

Three positions P/R/S:

 

3/3@#1 4/4@#2 3/3/2@#3. 1-1-1 1-2-1 1-1-1 & 2KD

 

4/5@#1 2/5/2@#2 4/0/4@#3 1-2-1/1-3-1 1-0-1/1-3-1/2KD 1-2-1/0/4KD

 

Carrying a rifle and later shotgun between positions and having flexibility to vary the number of pistol shots.

Yikes! I hope you never write scenarios for a match I attend. I don't mean to be insulting; but I do not understand that at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That has not been my experience. Most of the gunfighters I know are much better shooting with their offhand than a two handed shooter, but they certainly haven't been more skilled with pistols as a group. It's been my observation that with a few exceptions they shoot pistols slower than two handed shooters and are more likely to miss with pistols.

I agree with you on firing speed although we've got a GF or two that can take match overall. Missing seems a wash near me between categories with shooters of equal ability. I was thinking mainly about drawing and holstering as they are accustomed to drawing two pistols at a time. We only have one gunfighter that is out for fun alone and he's still pretty handy with 7½" Vaqueros and he's way up there in years. I'm pretty sure he's point shooting, but it looks cool even though he misses some. So I guess I'm a little skewed with the gunfighters around me all being really good. I believe I'm the really the only slow one that cares about being faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have an abundance of gunfighters here in the metro Atlanta area. All good cowboys, but only a few with a chance at winning a match overall. Cassalong Hoppidy is pretty quick. Hike's Point Hank and Bluff are always threats, and before he retired Easy Rider was by far the fastest gunfighter this game has ever seen (IMHO).

 

I believe that all three of them could win much more often if they were shooting two handed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yikes! I hope you never write scenarios for a match I attend. I don't mean to be insulting; but I do not understand that at all.

Not insulting at all I posted from my phone and did not realize the the formatting spaces were taken away from the post. Besides, my skin is over half as thick as my head...so thanks for pointing it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please do NOT change this rule. Gunfighters are MUCH more apt to holster a cocked pistol than a two-handed shooter. Why? It's simple, we have more going on in the first place and when we occasionally have to shoot 5 and move you have to remember we are cocking one pistol 3 times and the other twice.

 

Now you say, "There is already a penalty for holstering a cocked gun." Sure there is, but if a gunfighter gets used to doing that and something changes, (e.g. a gun hic-ups) the gunfighter could very easily holster their pistol with it cocked over a live round.

 

JUST SAY NO! There's a reason you don't see gunfighters arguing to get rid of this rule.

Well I am going to be the one gunfighter that will argue against it. It doesn't make any more sense than it would be to not allow us to stage guns in between broken pistol strings, nor prohibiting movement with pistols out and hammers down on spent cases. If those two are perfectly safe, then why isn't it safe to holster guns for us gunfighters and it's safe for two handed shooters? I honestly don't see a difference. If it's because we have so much more going on in the first place, then perhaps that person that feels that way shouldn't be shooting gunfighter in the first place. No one is advocating for a mandate that gunfighters holster their guns for split stages. There are areas of comfortability. If a gunfighter doesn't feel comfortable moving with guns out and hammers down or staging them, then he or she can always shoot the stage double duelist. I fail to see the problem here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.