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Hurricane Deck 100366

Whats the Call

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Reasonable being shoot five shots in one spot? Or can I mix it up?

 

Three positions P/R/S: Number of rounds at positions by P/R/S with shooting sequence underneath...For clarity.

 

3/3@#1 4/4@#2 3/3/2@#3

1-1-1 1-2-1 1-1-1 & 2KD

Pistol/Rifle Pistol/Rifle Pistol/Rifle/SG

 

 

Or

 

4/5@#1 2/5/2@#2 4/0/4@#3

1-2-1/1-3-1 1-0-1/1-3-1/2KD 1-2-1/0/4KD

Pistol/Rifle Pistol/Rifle/SG Pistol/SG

 

 

Carrying a rifle and later shotgun between positions and having flexibility to vary the number of pistol shots.

I said a reasonable/common scenario.........you're examples are neither......

 

The traditional style shooters would NEVER find a competitive reason to fire less than 5 rounds and re-holster a pistol with the intent of using it again.

 

GF style is rather unique when it comes to split pistol stages..... thus it has a unique rule. Accept the category and the rule for what it is. Keep in mind that Wyatt likes to stir the pot and he's been shooting long enough to know that what I wrote about the traditional shooter is true. Since GF is the only style in which it would make sense to re-holster with the intent to use again it has a special rule...You and Wyatt put your heads together and come up with a REASONABLE/COMMON scenario which would make the Traditional style shoot want to re-holster with the intent to use again then maybe this would need to be revisited.....

 

Stan

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Not insulting at all I posted from my phone and did not realize the the formatting spaces were taken away from the post. Besides, my skin is over half as thick as my head...so thanks for pointing it out.

Thanks!

 

Would you rewrite it so I can understand?

 

Looks like Stan got it; but, I didn't. :blush:

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Well I am going to be the one gunfighter that will argue against it. It doesn't make any more sense than it would be to not allow us to stage guns in between broken pistol strings, nor prohibiting movement with pistols out and hammers down on spent cases. If those two are perfectly safe, then why isn't it safe to holster guns for us gunfighters and it's safe for two handed shooters? I honestly don't see a difference. If it's because we have so much more going on in the first place, then perhaps that person that feels that way shouldn't be shooting gunfighter in the first place. No one is advocating for a mandate that gunfighters holster their guns for split stages. There are areas of comfortability. If a gunfighter doesn't feel comfortable moving with guns out and hammers down or staging them, then he or she can always shoot the stage double duelist. I fail to see the problem here.

So you don't see a difference between a cocked loaded pistol in a holster and a cocked loaded pistol on a table pointing down range? I see a huge difference in reducing the chance of that cocked loaded pistol pointing at the shooter by having them staged on a table/prop instead of holstered.

 

There was time when the GF style had to shoot all 10 or shoot double duelist. Staging after 5 rounds was not allowed.

 

I have no problem with staging.....I would not be in favor of holstering with the intent of reuse for the GF style.

 

Stan

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Stan

 

Leave me out of that issue. I've got my own agenda which does not include that particular hornets nest 😉

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Stan

 

Leave me out of that issue. I've got my own agenda which does not include that particular hornets nest

HAHA.....no way.....Just when you thought you were out they drug you back in......

 

Stan

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Thanks!

 

Would you rewrite it so I can understand?

 

Looks like Stan got it; but, I didn't. :blush:

I redid it. It apparently doesn't pass muster for REASONABLE, but I'd find it fun! Of course I'm also the only person I know who's crazy enough to shoot an action pistol match with multiple single action revolvers. It took six to get thorough a couple of stages. Four on the belt and two staged down range. It was AWESOME! 196 rounds fired over six stages!

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So you don't see a difference between a cocked loaded pistol in a holster and a cocked loaded pistol on a table pointing down range? I see a huge difference in reducing the chance of that cocked loaded pistol pointing at the shooter by having them staged on a table/prop instead of holstered.

 

There was time when the GF style had to shoot all 10 or shoot double duelist. Staging after 5 rounds was not allowed.

 

I have no problem with staging.....I would not be in favor of holstering with the intent of reuse for the GF style.

 

Stan

I never said any such thing. Of course you shouldn't have a cocked loaded pistol in a holster. But as the current rule stands, it is not standardized for all shooters, which is the first problem, plus it's assuming unsafe gun handling by a single class of shooter. There is already a rule about holstering a cocked gun. There doesn't need to be a separate rule any more than the stupid dropped round rule that is now gone. You can take that over zealous stance all day long and end up back to where none of us get to even have a loaded pistol in a holster at all, since there's a chance it could be cocked. So we should all have to stage our pistols on the table. But while staging pistols from the loading table to the firing line, it is possible to break the 170 or cock the hammer accidentally, so we should load them on the line. Now that I think about it, loaded pistols are a danger, so let's play this game with air soft instead.

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I redid it. It apparently doesn't pass muster for REASONABLE, but I'd find it fun! Of course I'm also the only person I know who's crazy enough to shoot an action pistol match with multiple single action revolvers. It took six to get thorough a couple of stages. Four on the belt and two staged down range. It was AWESOME! 196 rounds fired over six stages!

That sounds like fun to me. I am planning to shoot some matches at a local club this year Josey Wales style using my new to me 1851 Colts as the rifle.

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"Traditional style" seems quite modern to me and full of competitive advantage. I notice you chose the words a competitive reason for reholstering before firing five rounds. So it's not a safety concern at all from your perspective. I have an issue with the fact that Gunfighter is the only category that gets pushed out of its typical method of pistol deployment by the stage description. I practice alternating between pistols regularly. On the one occasion I hid out in the Duelist category because I knew I couldn't touch the guy who shot GF and won the match overall, I fired over 300 rounds in the week before the match practicing that style specifically. Is there a legal way to write a stage where a "traditional" shooter could be forced into shooting one handed? That would disrupt the flow of their day just a little bit I'd bet. So I contest that there is a sound competitive reason for a gunfighter to be able to holster in between fives because there is no place to stage the guns. Or make it so that there must be a place for guns to be staged if pistol arrays are split by another gun. There is no reason to force a gunfighter into duelist and call it just. That's all written in as a half measured stop gap that is implemented with the intent to jerk shooters around.

I don't see a difference between a cocked gun on a table or in a holster. They are both worthy of MDQ's in my eyes. I also don't give a second thought to shoving a gun with a hammer down on an empty chamber or spent case into a holster and running off to do something else. Sounds fun even.

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Is there a legal way to write a stage where a "traditional" shooter could be forced into shooting one handed?

No legal way that I know of, but more importantly, no one should write one that way! There are plenty of people in this sport who feel their hands aren't strong enough to shoot with one hand. That is why they use two hands. Its absurd to suggest that they do otherwise.

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That sounds like fun to me. I am planning to shoot some matches at a local club this year Josey Wales style using my new to me 1851 Colts as the rifle.

Oh it was! I even shot on the move! That was awesome. I got to shoot a popper activated pop up disappearing target. It required three hits. I got two off and my thumb slipped on the third shot. The guy running the timer was amazed at how fast the two went off. Shame I messed up and didn't get the third off. We even had some 40 yard shots on full cardboard targets. I had to really slow down for those. I didn't cheat and shot with two pistols out of leather the whole match. There was a forward advancing stage where there were targets on both sides of the shooter. I was able to cover the left targets with left guns and right targets with right guns. So much fun! I'm working on YouTube uploads.

 

Safety disclaimer:

The gentleman who RO'd me on all the stages was briefed on my plan ahead of time. I even went so far as to identify areas where I could make mistakes that would DQ me to be sure he was watching very carefully at those points.

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No legal way that I know of, but more importantly, no one should write one that way! There are plenty of people in this sport who feel their hands aren't strong enough to shoot with one hand. That is why they use two hands. Its absurd to suggest that they do otherwise.

So following your logic, it seems absurd to make a gunfighter shoot one gun at a time. That's why they shoot gunfighter isn't it?

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So following your logic, it seems absurd to make a gunfighter shoot one gun at a time. That's why they shoot gunfighter isn't it?

Big difference between forcing someone to shoot duelist style (could be unsafe) and forcing a GF to shoot double duelist.

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Strong and weak hand only strings of fire are common in other shooting disciplines. If the shooter cannot safely complete the course of fire as written, they take the procedural and do it in a manner that is safe and comfortable for them.

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No legal way that I know of, but more importantly, no one should write one that way! There are plenty of people in this sport who feel their hands aren't strong enough to shoot with one hand. That is why they use two hands. Its absurd to suggest that they do otherwise.

 

I fully agree

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"Traditional style" seems quite modern to me and full of competitive advantage. I notice you chose the words a competitive reason for reholstering before firing five rounds. So it's not a safety concern at all from your perspective. I have an issue with the fact that Gunfighter is the only category that gets pushed out of its typical method of pistol deployment by the stage description. I practice alternating between pistols regularly. On the one occasion I hid out in the Duelist category because I knew I couldn't touch the guy who shot GF and won the match overall, I fired over 300 rounds in the week before the match practicing that style specifically. Is there a legal way to write a stage where a "traditional" shooter could be forced into shooting one handed? That would disrupt the flow of their day just a little bit I'd bet. So I contest that there is a sound competitive reason for a gunfighter to be able to holster in between fives because there is no place to stage the guns. Or make it so that there must be a place for guns to be staged if pistol arrays are split by another gun. There is no reason to force a gunfighter into duelist and call it just. That's all written in as a half measured stop gap that is implemented with the intent to jerk shooters around.

I don't see a difference between a cocked gun on a table or in a holster. They are both worthy of MDQ's in my eyes. I also don't give a second thought to shoving a gun with a hammer down on an empty chamber or spent case into a holster and running off to do something else. Sounds fun even.

So a cowboy loads all his gear and drives some unknown distance to shoot your match. He plops down his hard earned money to have some fun. You then want to force him to shoot in a way that he has purposely chosen not to shoot? Your intent is to disrupt the flow of his day? You're not a match director are you? If you made a habit of that I suspect your club wouldn't last long. You mention later that the shooter could just take the P. If I came and brought my buckaroo with me, and a stage like that forced him to take a P (I wouldn't let him shoot one handed) you can be certain we would never be back. No offense intended, but that's a very bad idea.

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As a GF, and living in an area that is about 15-20% GFer's on any given match, I find the rules/guidelines adhering to the GF reasonable and seemingly focused on safety.

 

And of recent years, a couple of the bigger matches I have attended seem to have a very noticeable number of GFer's, especially the last couple years of the TN State.

 

Anyhow, my basic comment is towards commending the stage writers who are trying hard to write stages where the GF can shoot their pistols back to back. And even on split pistol stages, staging areas are provided to accommodate the GF who has a choice of shooting Duelist or GF style.

 

Remember, when there are split pistol scenarios, where long gun(s) are fired between each pistol, even the Traditional style shooter or Duelist have to approach the stage a little different in that its VERY possible that they sometimes draw the empty pistol for their 2nd pistol scenerio, just to reholster and draw the correct pistol. I use to see this quite often but of the last couple years, stages are being written with pistols back to back. Plus, on split pistol stages, a Trad or Duelist style shooter 'might' have to change up their methods of 1st and 2nd pistol depending upon which way the stage movements are required.

 

I have NO problem with the current rules or guidelines.

 

As with any rule that a member would like changed, SASS has appropriate avenues to have it addressed.

 

As for the Wire, I think it is a great way to discuss these things, whether ya agree or disagree.

 

 

..........Widder

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HAHA.....no way.....Just when you thought you were out they drug you back in......

 

Stan

 

If you insist...............I've got a big pot of "Safety" simmering and it's close to need stirring ;)

 

When does the What's the Call forum start?

 

Just remember.............I called Dibbs

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I am one of the peeps who would not like to shoot duelist style with my revolvers in a main match.. Maybe if my guns had a smaller frame or lowered hammer, I could do it SAFELY. I don't know as I haven't tried it lately.

 

I am so happy that the CA clubs, where I shoot, now allow Plainsman shooters to cock with the off hand, if they move that hand down to waist level or lower after cocking. It is so slow and not at all competitive. However, I just like to shoot that side match. :wub: the guns. I would love to have a Traditional (two-handed) category in Plainsman; but I doubt that it would improve my placement much. :blush: I'd also love to convince "Gun Boy" that I need two new revolvers or lowered hammers on mine; but, that is another story.

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So following your logic, it seems absurd to make a gunfighter shoot one gun at a time. That's why they shoot gunfighter isn't it?

A gunfighter, knowing the rules, CHOOSES to shoot that way. To force a child or that little old grandma who doesn't have the strength to safely shoot one handed is just damn foolish to even suggest it! Big difference!

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My intention was not to deliberately sabotage any shooter in their chosen style. It was to highlight how they get all up in arms about safety and the phase of the Moon when their style is threatened. However the gunfighters just ignore/accept it when it happens to them.

 

The taking of the P applies to other disciplines where folks have the option to take the P instead of doing things they aren't physically able to or don't feel comfortable doing. A procedural in other disciplines is only three seconds and doesn't progress into a DQ with the exception of finger on the trigger while moving and not engaging targets.

 

I'd thank folks for further consideration of making this rule equal across all categories. Until then, thanks for not making me shoot duelist when I didn't plan on it at registration, but if it helps your stage design be more flexible, bring it on! I love a challenge.

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As a traditional shooter I would have no problem with a rule stating;

At no time may any shooter re-holster a pistol containing live rounds after any rounds have been fired from it with the intent of later engaging another target/targets, unless directed to do so in the stage instructions. The penalty for doing so is a MSV.

 

If it makes the gunfighters happy I say add it.

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Question,

 

Describe when pistol(s) are reholstered to the extend that it warrants a penalty.

 

Example: GF inserts barrels of pistols completely into holster leather (after first five shots of shooting string) , but still has hands on grips and is in control of firearm. Shooter realizes what he has done and draws pistols right back out. Penalty?

 

 

Example: Traditional shooter reholsters a cocked pistol completely into leather, but has his hand still on grip. Shooter realizes what he has done and draws pistol out and points it down range. Penalty?

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Question,

 

Describe when pistol(s) are reholstered to the extend that it warrants a penalty.

 

Example: GF inserts barrels of pistols completely into holster leather (after first five shots of shooting string) , but still has hands on grips and is in control of firearm. Shooter realizes what he has done and draws pistols right back out. Penalty?

none

 

 

Example: Traditional shooter reholsters a cocked pistol completely into leather, but has his hand still on grip. Shooter realizes what he has done and draws pistol out and points it down range. Penalty?

SDQ

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Howdy Blastmaster.

 

NO PENALTY on the GF.

 

The GF could have actually removed his hands (assuming neither hammer was cocked) and then Redraws both pistols to finish the stage scenario.

 

OOPS..... I had this wrong and PWB has already posted the deal.

 

 

PWB: I was thinking that because the TRAD shooter hadn't removed his hand from his pistol, he still could correct the cocked hammer situation. The shooter would also have to decock that pistol with TO's approval.

 

QUESTION: along with the SDQ, if the shooter removed that cocked pistol and decocked it down range WITHOUT the TO's approval, would the shooter also earn the penalty for that?

 

 

..........Widder

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Question,

 

Describe when pistol(s) are reholstered to the extend that it warrants a penalty.

 

Example: GF inserts barrels of pistols completely into holster leather (after first five shots of shooting string) , but still has hands on grips and is in control of firearm. Shooter realizes what he has done and draws pistols right back out. Penalty?

none

 

 

Example: Traditional shooter reholsters a cocked pistol completely into leather, but has his hand still on grip. Shooter realizes what he has done and draws pistol out and points it down range. Penalty?

SDQ

 

Thanks,

 

I'll guess for the reasons why.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 5, 2016 - Don't want to antagonize PWB.
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 5, 2016 - Don't want to antagonize PWB.

Thanks,

 

I'll guess for the reasons why.

 

Or..................R*FM

 

Sorry if I stepped on your toes PWB

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Or..................R*FM

 

Sorry if I stepped on your toes PWB

Can you pretty please point me to the section where I would find this information? I fail to see why the traditional shooter is given a penalty while the gunfighter is OK.

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So following your logic, it seems absurd to make a gunfighter shoot one gun at a time. That's why they shoot gunfighter isn't it?

There is no difference for the GF shooting Doible Duelist except they don't have both pistols out at the same time.....once again your argument lacks solid ground.

 

You and RK really are showing a lack of understanding about the sport and its nuances. Stay for a while and listen to those that have been shooting. Travel and visit and see how it's done in other areas. Take a wider view of the game....look at all the participants and see it through their eyes. Think about the buckaroo with small hands and the cattle baron with nerve damaged hands. What may sound like fun could be unsafe for them. Run a match or two and you'll probably have a different perspective.

 

Stan - who agrees with Smokestack about adding a rule for traditional shooters to be the same as GF. It's just wasted ink on paper because NO traditional shooter does it anyways.

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Can you pretty please point me to the section where I would find this information? I fail to see why the traditional shooter is given a penalty while the gunfighter is OK.

 

RO 1 Pg.24

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RO 1 Pg.24

I don't see it on pg 24. On page 25 is states that returning a cocked revolver to leather is a SDQ, but still don't understand why a gunfighter can do it but not a trad. shooter. I must be missing something here.

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It is pg.25

 

I was working off the old version.................my bad

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Traditional still had control of cocked pistol, just like GF had control of his. Which lead to the question of when is it holstered.

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