Sticky 73 - thoughts? PROBLEM SOLVED Update post 73

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

We re-chambered it while we had the barrel off just to cover our bases but it didn't really change anything.

 

Well, that is an important piece of info. I'd say you and HW covered a LOT of bases with the work already done on the gun. These "sticky extraction" problems seem really tough, in part because they are not consistently occurring, and seem to be worse as the load gets lighter. Something the firearms industry really doesn't investigate much, because they are much more concerned with what happens up toward the max pressure levels the gun might encounter in service.

 

Not denigrating at all the hard work and money you spent investigating this. Obviously you have gone much farther than most folks have.

 

Thanks for the info! GJ

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

Just a thought. Do these rifles have short stroke links and have you put the stock links back in to see if it changed?

MCJ

[Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022]

This may sound silly, but do you clean the case lube off the brass after reloading? Some lubes are sticky after some time

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

Hi Jackaroo. so good to hear from you my friend! You and and the missus are going to be terribly missed at land run this year. My little family is so thankfull to hear that you are well on the road to recovery. Let Kat know we hastily await her posts on facebook with updates as to your progress. You are continually in our prayers, my friend.

 

I'll certainly check the extractor, maybe I've got just enough crud under there to allow for some slop.

Hi HD, Thank you so much for your kind words...we are certainly going to miss Land Run this year, but we have sent two replacements??

Virgil Earp and his wife Alvira Earp will be attending, they are staying at our place in Edmond for the match time there so look them up & say howdy.

He is our Australian Territorial Governor and great people.

 

One more thing on your rifle, I also had a 73 that did that,and found the firing pin extension was bent slight right at the point it's located in the bolt. This wears the bolt too and as you have said before some force has been used to extract some rounds, you could have bent this firing pin extension and the bolt are not lined up exactly when you start opening the lever. That has a tendancy to tip the bolt upward at the extractor end and down at the firing pin end. This forces the round sitting on the bottom tab of the bolt to be forced upward thus making it stick, and you're getting a smoother extraction when not attached to the bolt. Hope this can fix for you.

Looking forward to getting back, to OK.... we are aiming for mid May. I have my last consultation with the cardiologist next week and continue my recovery exercise program for the next 6 weeks.

Good luck at LR and pass our regards to all.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Okay, so here's some new info.

 

I disassembled the rifle again tonight.

 

Disassembled the bolt, scrubbed it and let it and the extractor spend about 45 minutes in the ultrasonic bathtub. gave it all a quick polish and installed the extractor.

 

gave the receiver a good scrub and ultrasonic as well.

 

put the barreled action in the vise, barrel facing down and took a known "sticky" dummy round, marked the orientation in which it is sticky and dropped it in the chamber. dropped right into the chamber. turn the receiver upside down and it falls out.

 

so, drop the round back in, oriented to where it was sticky before, put the EMPTY bolt back in the rifle. no extension, no firing pin and it takes two hands to extract the brass with the bolt. Change

 

turn the round 90-180-270 degrees and the bolt extracts the brass with no hiccups at all.

 

I can repeat this test over and over again.

 

So, there are only four pieces at play here. the round, the barrel, the receiver and the bolt.

 

I'm seriously stumped. I ran out of time this evening, but the next step is to pull the bolt from another rifle and try the test in this rifle.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

With the bolt out of the rifle, snap that piece of brass into the bolt face at different angles, maybe rotating it in place. See if that tells you anything. I would be looking under a magnifyer at that rim and taking measurements. Maybe for whatever reason it is pushing the extractor up enough to cause it to hang up in the barrel cutout.

[Lead Monger]

Try another bolt!!!!

[Carolina Gunslinger]

Sounds like something about the rim on that case is causing the extractor to jam in its cutout or the round is somehow off centering the bolt.

[Blackey Cole]

I have several thoughts on this.

 

1) is it a certian head stamp or does it happen with more than one head stamp?

2) do you run your brass through a sizing gauge like from Dillon or Wilson.

3) do you wipe you loaded rounds down to remove excess lube or lead that might be shaved when seating the bullet.

 

I run all major match ammo thru a sizing gauge for my specs it should drop in fully and fall out by inverting the gauge. I've noticed lube building up in the gauge and need wiping out and the brass needed wiping down also. All my competition chambers are slightly oversized so a sammi spec gauge catches small problems before the hit the gun. If resizing will fix it I resize and recheck otherwise it goes in to a practice box. I've caught slight bulges in the brass from the lead being deformed during seating.

 

I found amerc head stamps were thicker than most 45sso I started throwing them away as I jammed my process flow when reloading. All it takes is looking at all the problems enough to see the commonality. If you gauge the ammo and still have problems with that one gun you might tear it down looking for flaws something might have a burr or be misalign ing at odd times. Good luck

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

I have several thoughts on this.

 

1) is it a certian head stamp or does it happen with more than one head stamp?

2) do you run your brass through a sizing gauge like from Dillon or Wilson.

3) do you wipe you loaded rounds down to remove excess lube or lead that might be shaved when seating the bullet.

I run all major match ammo thru a sizing gauge for my specs it should drop in fully and fall out by inverting the gauge. I've noticed lube building up in the gauge and need wiping out and the brass needed wiping down also. All my competition chambers are slightly oversized so a sammi spec gauge catches small problems before the hit the gun. If resizing will fix it I resize and recheck otherwise it goes in to a practice box. I've caught slight bulges in the brass from the lead being deformed during seating.

 

I found amerc head stamps were thicker than most 45sso I started throwing them away as I jammed my process flow when reloading. All it takes is looking at all the problems enough to see the commonality. If you gauge the ammo and still have problems with that one gun you might tear it down looking for flaws something might have a burr or be misalign ing at odd times. Good luck

 

It's various headstamps. from Winchester White box to PPU, RP, Starline

 

Brass doesn't go through a guage. chambering of a finished round hasn't really been a problem. it's always been extraction after firing. I figure is the rounds will work properly in 9 other firearms from three different manufacturers, it's probably pretty close to spec.

 

rounds are wiped down to remove excess lube and stray lead shavings as they are loaded into boxes.

 

Brass that jams up the Dillon makes it into the trash.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Here's a video detailing the problem. I know the quality sucks, there's blurry spots, etc... etc. . . I needed one more hand (or a tripod) but I don't have one so it's the best I could do at the moment. The video was saved in 4K resolution to maximize detail.

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

You might try painting the round with Prussian blue and the inserting the sticky round into the bolt in the "sticky" orientation. Extraction of the round will indicate where the round is sticking/rubbing in the chamber.

 

Is it possible that your sizing die is not fully seated on the shell holder? Or are you short stroking your press occasionally when resizing.

 

If you have another sticky round, remove the decapping pin from your die and carefully resize the round to see if that solves the problem.

 

It appears to me from your video that the round may not be concentric.

But firing the round should bring it back into alignment.

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

This is really a stretch but could the threaded portion of the barrel not be centered with the chamber causing the chamber to be slightly offset and if the rim of the brass is slightly off center causing a bind? Try filling the outer rim of the brass slightly smaller and see if that solves the problem. I have had star line brass that about 5% was too thick to go in a Dillon shell plate which has very tight detentions.

MCJ

[CodyMaverick]

You might try painting the round with Prussian blue and the inserting the sticky round into the bolt in the "sticky" orientation. Extraction of the round will indicate where the round is sticking/rubbing in the chamber.

 

Is it possible that your sizing die is not fully seated on the shell holder? Or are you short stroking your press occasionally when resizing.

 

If you have another sticky round, remove the decapping pin from your die and carefully resize the round to see if that solves the problem.

 

It appears to me from your video that the round may not be concentric.

But firing the round should bring it back into alignment.

+1 on the prussian blue and the resizing idea

 

You can just paint the whole cartridge with a sharpie if you don't have the blue.

and;

Do you have another sizing die and/or maybe a single stage press. My impression from your video is that your case is not square with the rim (i.e. perpendicular)

 

Cool video but it was kinda like watching one where I put my gopro on my hat, makes me a little dizzy.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

That is one large(tall) nose on that extractor! If that shiny spot on the front half of the top of the extractor's nose is from rubbing (even sticking) in the barrel recess, I'd be taking off about 1/3 of the extractor nose (the top surface) That is a LOT of steel, and as the rim snaps under the extractor as you chamber it, it could be jamming in the recess.

 

The only function that the top part of the nose of the extractor has is to catch on the dust cover and pull it back as the action opens. As long as you still catch the dust cover, you can take metal off that extractor nose top surface.

 

What is the history of that extractor? Did you put that one in not long before you started having sticky brass? Or has that extractor been in there "forever"?

 

Good luck, GJ

[Rock Rotten]

Check for over toggling. With the lever closed, the links should be in line or a bit under toggled. If they toggle past a straight line you have to untoggle them first when levering. If so and the headspace is tight it may take significant force on the lever. I set mine to be slightly under toggled so the fired round gives a sort of powered assist. My rifles run faster shooting compared to dry firing.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

It would definitely appear that the extractor is torquing the round upward as soon as it grabs it. So the round is under ejection tension the entire time it is contained. The offending round is rather unconcentric in the spot where you have notated about a eighth of an inch back from the crimp. My suspicion is too much extractor tension being the culprit which is highlighted by the out of round case. Is the extractor one you have fitted to the rifle? When I fitted a new extractor to my .45 '73 I had some issues with too much tension also.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

+1 on the prussian blue and the resizing idea

 

You can just paint the whole cartridge with a sharpie if you don't have the blue.

and;

Do you have another sizing die and/or maybe a single stage press. My impression from your video is that your case is not square with the rim (i.e. perpendicular)

 

Cool video but it was kinda like watching one where I put my gopro on my hat, makes me a little dizzy.

Agreed, sorry.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

That is one large(tall) nose on that extractor! If that shiny spot on the front half of the top of the extractor's nose is from rubbing (even sticking) in the barrel recess, I'd be taking off about 1/3 of the extractor nose (the top surface) That is a LOT of steel, and as the rim snaps under the extractor as you chamber it, it could be jamming in the recess.

 

The only function that the top part of the nose of the extractor has is to catch on the dust cover and pull it back as the action opens. As long as you still catch the dust cover, you can take metal off that extractor nose top surface.

 

What is the history of that extractor? Did you put that one in not long before you started having sticky brass? Or has that extractor been in there "forever"?

 

Good luck, GJ

I originally thought it was making contact as well, so I coated the top in dykem and was able to determine that it was not touching the recess on the top.

 

It would definitely appear that the extractor is torquing the round upward as soon as it grabs it. So the round is under ejection tension the entire time it is contained. The offending round is rather unconcentric in the spot where you have notated about a eighth of an inch back from the crimp. My suspicion is too much extractor tension being the culprit which is highlighted by the out of round case. Is the extractor one you have fitted to the rifle? When I fitted a new extractor to my .45 '73 I had some issues with too much tension also.

This is the factory extractor as it came out of the box. It's been removed a few times for cleaning but thats about it. It was polished (while still installed in the bolt) some time back, but has been cleaned at least twice since.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Check for over toggling. With the lever closed, the links should be in line or a bit under toggled. If they toggle past a straight line you have to untoggle them first when levering. If so and the headspace is tight it may take significant force on the lever. I set mine to be slightly under toggled so the fired round gives a sort of powered assist. My rifles run faster shooting compared to dry firing.

I'm having the issues with the toggles totally out of the rifle.

[Yusta B.]

Any chance the bullet in the pictured round is not seated straight in the case. Could you pull the bullet, full length resize the case & seat a new bullet & repeat your tests ?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Take one of your rounds that is causing the jam. Find the spot where the jam always happens. File the rim down about 10-15 thousands, wide enough for the extractor to fit in the freshly filed spot. Test to see that relieving the rim makes the jamming go away - I'd bet it will. In that case, you have pinppointed the problem to be the extractor not working on cases that have a "max diameter" rim, I would bet.

 

Then, see if the notch on the extractor nose is wide enough for the extractor to snap down over your rims, and the notch is deep enough that the nose of the extractor, as it snaps over, falls fully down enough to clear the recess in the barrel all the way back into that recess, and to fully settle down on the rim of the case, with nose snugging right up against the case wall. Check extractor tension to make sure it is not worn out. Finger tip pull on the extractor tip should make your finger hurt a little (about 5 pounds with a trigger pull gauge).

 

You almost certainly have a problem either with the extractor or the recess in the back of the barrel for the extractor.

 

Good luck, GJ

[CodyMaverick]

Take one of your rounds that is causing the jam. Find the spot where the jam always happens. File the rim down about 10-15 thousands, wide enough for the extractor to fit in the freshly filed spot. Test to see that relieving the rim makes the jamming go away - I'd bet it will. In that case, you have pinppointed the problem to be the extractor not working on cases that have a "max diameter" rim, I would bet.

 

Then, see if the notch on the extractor nose is wide enough for the extractor to snap down over your rims, and the notch is deep enough that the nose of the extractor as it snaps over, falls fully down enough to clear the recess in the barrel all the way back into that recess.

 

You almost certainly have a problem either with the extractor or the recess in the back of the barrel for the extractor.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

I am curious about how much tension his extractor is putting on the case. I checked my '73s (Codymatics) and turned them vertical like he is doing in the video. Mine will not maintain a grip on an empty case, much less a loaded round. My extractor hooks fully engage the rim but not to the point where the extractor is actually under constant tension. I think he needs to tune the extractor or have someone do it. The test you recommended should prove this out.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Take one of your rounds that is causing the jam. Find the spot where the jam always happens. File the rim down about 10-15 thousands, wide enough for the extractor to fit in the freshly filed spot. Test to see that relieving the rim makes the jamming go away - I'd bet it will. In that case, you have pinppointed the problem to be the extractor not working on cases that have a "max diameter" rim, I would bet.

 

Then, see if the notch on the extractor nose is wide enough for the extractor to snap down over your rims, and the notch is deep enough that the nose of the extractor, as it snaps over, falls fully down enough to clear the recess in the barrel all the way back into that recess, and to fully settle down on the rim of the case, with nose snugging right up against the case wall. Check extractor tension to make sure it is not worn out. Finger tip pull on the extractor tip should make your finger hurt a little (about 5 pounds with a trigger pull gauge).

 

You almost certainly have a problem either with the extractor or the recess in the back of the barrel for the extractor.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

I am curious about how much tension his extractor is putting on the case. I checked my '73s (Codymatics) and turned them vertical like he is doing in the video. Mine will not maintain a grip on an empty case, much less a loaded round. My extractor hooks fully engage the rim but not to the point where the extractor is actually under constant tension. I think he needs to tune the extractor or have someone do it. The test you recommended should prove this out.

 

I think you gents are on to something here. I can see the extractor getting bent somehow or just plain wearing out over time. the rifle has gobs or rounds through it and extractors do wear out. Joe, I'll try your test this evening with filing down the rim of the suspect case. It would make perfect sense the a "max diameter" case couple with an out of spec extractor would do exactly what it's doing. If that works, I'll try to tune up the extractor. I also think I'm going to get a couple of extractors ordered to have on hand.

 

Cody, thanks for the PM. I may be making a phone call in the very near future.

 

And thanks to everyone who is sticking it out through all my long posts and the video that is just. plain. awful. I'll put a document together with all the suggestions and things to try for reference in the future.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Any chance the bullet in the pictured round is not seated straight in the case. Could you pull the bullet, full length resize the case & seat a new bullet & repeat your tests ?

 

I suppose it's possible, but the issue started with extraction of fired cases, so there was no bullet to be a factor at the time. this bullet was installed just so I had a place to part, and so I could get it to chamber easily.

[CodyMaverick]

Hurricane,

 

I downloaded your video so I could step through it and it does look like your cartridge is being tilted up slightly and entering the chamber at an angle, coupled with the fact that it matters how you orient the cartridge to product the effect still makes me suspect your reloading press is producing rounds that are not quite straight. If that is true then having your rifle in this current condition might actually be helpful in troubleshooting your press.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

 

 

 

I don't want to hijack this thread and I hope the OP gets some info here that he can use. Having said that, as it relates to the two quotes above;

 

I went as far as taking the barrel off the gun so I could see if there was build up in the chamber and also to check to see if the chamber had a groove cut into it where the case ends and bullet begins - nothing. AND, I had Harlan Wolfe replace the bolt and the firing pin extension and replace the bolt with a new one and use an slightly oversize firing pin extension from C&I to stop any upward movement at the joint where the two meet. We compared it to a brand new one and it was actually tighter. We also checked the receiver where the firing pin extension runs to make sure the frame was not worn there - again compared it to a new rifle and there was no difference.

 

The only thing we found was that the chamber was actually out of round. We re-chambered it while we had the barrel off just to cover our bases but it didn't really change anything.

 

The rifle is sitting quietly in my safe because I will not sell it to someone else the way it is. My reputation (such that it is) is worth more than that. If I ever figure this out, I will post it here.

 

Thanks,

 

Did I mention that he was thorough? :D

[Griff]

In looking at the video, I do believe that 1) the rims are out of round... measure the diameter at several points around the rim. Edited to state this better): measure the distance from the edge of the rim to the case wall. Set a straight edge along the case wall, rotating it around the rim. It should be fairly consistent all the way around. 2) the cut in the extractor is too shallow. I think that is what Garrison Joe was alluding to... The perfect misfit of "stacking" tolerances to produce a poor result. Ain't nuttin' built to precise measurements... everything has a "tolerance". I believe you're meeting the point at which they interfere. As said above, russian blue the entire case and rim to find out where the contact points are. Too much extractor pressure will cause excessive wear at the rear of the receiver, at both the back of the carrier mortise and where the firing pin extension exits the receiver.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

HD,

Didn't you say you didn't have this issue with factory ammo? Or am I crazy like my wife claims?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

HD,

Didn't you say you didn't have this issue with factory ammo? Or am I crazy like my wife claims?

 

He did say that.

 

Of course, that factory ammo was almost certainly all one particular brand of brass.....if he's getting a few pieces of brass that trigger his problem, problem could be brought on by only that brand of brass. Would be useful if he could tell us what brand(s) have been sticking.....

 

Good luck, GJ

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

 

He did say that.

 

Of course, that factory ammo was almost certainly all one particular brand of brass.....if he's getting a few pieces of brass that trigger his problem, problem could be brought on by only that brand of brass. Would be useful if he could tell us what brand(s) have been sticking.....

 

Good luck, GJ

I've had rp, ww, winchester, ppu and starline sticking. Yes the factory ammo was all American Eagle brand.

 

so I checked the bolt again this evening looking for brass being too tightly grabbed by the ejector. NONE of the brass would stay on the bolt. in the video I must have had the rifle tilted backwards slightly.

 

now get this: I pulled the bolt from the newest rifle to use as a test. this rifle operates flawlessly. it's bolt, removed from the rifle, grasps the brass so tightly it had to be shaken off. I tried both the suspect test round and a piece off factory ammo with the same results.

 

put the bolt in the trouble rifle and the round is snug but not stuck regardless of orientation. I could operate the bolt by hand fairly easily.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

..... double tap

[CodyMaverick]

Hurricane,

 

I looked at your video again and I really can't tell if your extractor is under tension or not. I assumed it must be or the round would fall off while your moving it in and out of the chamber. However; I did find a frame where I could get a good look at your cartridge. At time index 2:17. that particular round looks to be severely over-crimped. The very tip of the mouth of the case should be rolled into the crimp groove and no more. It looks like the tip of your case has been smashed flat in to the crimp groove. Compare your reloads to your factory rounds and you should see the difference. Over crimping will cause the case to buckle a bit and with what you have going on, any bulging of the case will contribute to your woes.

 

It sounds like your test conditions have changed somewhat from when you ran the video. Gotta hate when that happens. If you get better results with the other bolt, then I would say that's pretty conclusive that your original bolt is different in some way that contributes to this condition. So it seems you have two or more things coming together to create the jam.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Put a new extractor (when you get one) in the old bolt, properly profiled and tuned, and I bet it will work fine. The extractor is designed, just like in a 1911 pistol, to hold the fired round pretty securely against the bolt face and perched on the cartridge tab for support. If the case is loose, it has a good chance of escaping from the extractor before the ejector (we know it better as the top of the carrier) comes up at high speed and kicks the fired brass up and out of the gun. A loose piece of brass bouncing around in the frame is not always going to get out of the way, and it can cause a jam on it's own, just not the sticky case problem you are seeing.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Lead Monger]

Thank you for trying a different bolt. Now we know its the bolt group.