Sticky 73 - thoughts? PROBLEM SOLVED Update post 73

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

a few hundred rounds ago, the wifes 73's started having an issue that I'm having trouble pinpointing. Thought perhaps the Wire could offer up some suggestions. this is an Uberti 73 made a few years go. we have probably 1500 rounds through it. it's short stroked and the stroke is tuned properly and ran flawlessly for the entire season last year. other mods are whisper springs and a light duty hammer spring. the rest of the rifle is stock.

1 in every 20 or 30 rounds in this rifle is difficult to extract. Most of the rounds only take a flick of the lever to send the brass flying. the sticky rounds require much more force on the lever to get them out of the chamber, but they will come out. It's enough of a difference in force that it can cause the shooter to pause during a shot string to see if there is a problem. It doesn't take "gorilla" force to get it out, but it does take WAY more force than normal.

 

I can readily reproduce the problem in this rifle only. We have two other 73's being fed from the same box of ammo with no issues at all. The sticky piece of brass is not split or bulged. it does not have a cracked or any other obvious deformities. I've even taken a few pieces, run the back through the reloading press and am able to shoot them with the rifle in which they were sticking before with no trouble. if I take the spent piece of brass and put it immediately back into the rifle, there's no stickiness at all.

 

the rifle dry fires with no problem. ALL rounds chamber with no issue. it's just the extraction of the occasional fired case that is a problem. It extracts snap caps fine. It extracts dummy rounds fine. I've never had it NOT extract a piece of brass, never had a split case or separated case in the rifle.

 

I have thoroughly cleaned the chamber, and even run a slix-scraper in it to ensure there's not a carbon ring catching the brass but it didn't help.

 

Any ideas of things to check would be greatly appreciated.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Just a thought, what head stamp on the sticky brass?

[Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022]

reloads or factory? OAL? extractor clean-hold tension?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Do you shoot the same ammo in other 73s without a problem? If you haven't, it's worth a try just as a troubleshooting exercise. If other guns also stick a little (or a lot), then it's probably ammo. Otherwise, it's probably in the gun.

 

And if it's the gun, its probably a rough chamber. Some toothpaste on a piece of bronze wool wrapped around a cleaning brush, spun carefully with a drill motor, might just do wonders.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

These sticking problems can be frustrating. Have a friend that starting having sticking problems after years of shooting the same main match rifle. He and I went through the rifle several times. He even took it to a smith to see if he could find anything wrong. After weeks of messing around it turned out it was a flake of unburned powder getting stuck between the chamber and case wall. A lot of people are trying to load their ammo so wusy that it does not seal when the round is fired and you don't get a clean burn. This particular problem was on a .357 firing .38s. It can be even worse with .45s. The fact that the same ammo works OK in another gun really doesn't mean much since all guns are a little different. If your rifle sounds like an air gun when it is being shot try upping the charge just a bit or changing the powder type. If the problem perists then start looking for other problems. Always start with the easiest thing first.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

I feel your pain..a lot!!

 

I have two rifles. One I have shot for five years with possibly up to 80,000 rounds through it. The other is a new model only a couple of years old. My old rifle does the exact same thing you are describing above. I have literally replaced every moving part in the rifle down to the lever and the hammer with no real change. I have changed powder from Clays to Titegroup to Red Dot with no change. I have moved from lead bullets to coated bullets thinking it was a lead build up issue with no change. I have shipped it to two different smiths besides my local smith who is very knowledgable. It now lives in the safe.

 

Here is the killer......now the newer model is starting to do the same thing. I have been forced to take a cleaning rod when I practice or shoot a match so I can clean the chamber every hundred rounds or so. If I don't, it starts to stick and throws off my timing.

 

If you ever figure out what is causing this please send me a PM. It's so bad I almost want to shoot a Marlin.......almost.

[Russ T. Sites]

I had a similar problem with mine , I had just replaced the firing pin and had too much protrusion which seemed to cause it to stick once in awhile. I suspect that the firing pin was causing it to wedge the rim between the pin and extractor, fitted the pin for proper protrusion problem went away..

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Just a thought, what head stamp on the sticky brass?

 

Mixed headstamp, including some several-times fired Starline. I do have some factory LRN ammo I can try so to eliminate the possibility of "tried" brass, but this same brass, same batch doesn't stick in two other 73 rifes and we've never had trouble as far as difficult to eject brass from any of the 6 pistols that same brass is run in.

 

reloads or factory? OAL? extractor clean-hold tension?

Reloads, OAL is 1.48 +- .01 generally brass that has stretched beyond this is quickly culled on the press as the difference in belling is obvious.

 

Do you shoot the same ammo in other 73s without a problem? If you haven't, it's worth a try just as a troubleshooting exercise. If other guns also stick a little (or a lot), then it's probably ammo. Otherwise, it's probably in the gun.

 

And if it's the gun, its probably a rough chamber. Some toothpaste on a piece of bronze wool wrapped around a cleaning brush, spun carefully with a drill motor, might just do wonders.

 

Good luck, GJ

I do shoot the same ammo is two other 73's and, 4 vaqueros and 2 Smokewagons with no problems.

 

I'm thinking rough chamber as well, I've yet to find any evidence of scratched or excessive roughness using a scope.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

These sticking problems can be frustrating. Have a friend that starting having sticking problems after years of shooting the same main match rifle. He and I went through the rifle several times. He even took it to a smith to see if he could find anything wrong. After weeks of messing around it turned out it was a flake of unburned powder getting stuck between the chamber and case wall. A lot of people are trying to load their ammo so wusy that it does not seal when the round is fired and you don't get a clean burn. This particular problem was on a .357 firing .38s. It can be even worse with .45s. The fact that the same ammo works OK in another gun really doesn't mean much since all guns are a little different. If your rifle sounds like an air gun when it is being shot try upping the charge just a bit or changing the powder type. If the problem perists then start looking for other problems. Always start with the easiest thing first.

 

Excellent idea. I do have some factory ammo that I can run. Sounds like this is the next troubleshooting step as it's the easiest.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

I feel your pain..a lot!!

 

I have two rifles. One I have shot for five years with possibly up to 80,000 rounds through it. The other is a new model only a couple of years old. My old rifle does the exact same thing you are describing above. I have literally replaced every moving part in the rifle down to the lever and the hammer with no real change. I have changed powder from Clays to Titegroup to Red Dot with no change. I have moved from lead bullets to coated bullets thinking it was a lead build up issue with no change. I have shipped it to two different smiths besides my local smith who is very knowledgable. It now lives in the safe.

 

Here is the killer......now the newer model is starting to do the same thing. I have been forced to take a cleaning rod when I practice or shoot a match so I can clean the chamber every hundred rounds or so. If I don't, it starts to stick and throws off my timing.

 

If you ever figure out what is causing this please send me a PM. It's so bad I almost want to shoot a Marlin.......almost.

 

Dan, if I find anything I'll make sure and send you a PM.

[CodyMaverick]

When you get to a stuck rifle, stop and see if you can lever the bolt back just far enough to use your fingernail, dental pick, small screwdriver or whatever to gently pry up the extractor hook to release the rim. At that point, does the action now move freely and the case is still sticky or vice-versa. If you can do that it may help you decide if the problem is with the case/chamber or in the rifles action.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

How far out of the chamber does the lever pull the brass before it is "hard to extract"? Almost no distance at all? That would be due to lead buildup, as far as my experience takes me.

 

I'd be real tempted to try running a mouth-belled .357 case into the chamber, to act as a wall scraper, to make sure there is no lead build up out at the front end of the chamber. That lead buildup (in the 0.010" difference in length between the .38 special case and a .357 case) grabs a lot of .38 special brass when folks shoot a 357 chambered rifle (as almost all the 73 Uberti's are). Expand the case as much as you can and still get it into the chamber.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Griff]

When you get to a stuck rifle, stop and see if you can lever the bolt back just far enough to use your fingernail, dental pick, small screwdriver or whatever to gently pry up the extractor hook to release the rim. At that point, does the action now move freely and the case is still sticky or vice-versa. If you can do that it may help you decide if the problem is with the case/chamber or in the rifles action.

Is the bolt tab still in place?

Is there any appreciable wobble in the bolt when in "battery"?

Have you checked the action with the side plates off? You can see whether there's a hitch in the links' movement.

How far out of the chamber does the lever pull the brass before it is "hard to extract"? Almost no distance at all? That would be due to lead buildup, as far as my experience takes me.

 

I'd be real tempted to try running a mouth-belled .357 case into the chamber, to act as a wall scraper, to make sure there is no lead build up out at the front end of the chamber. That lead buildup (in the 0.010" difference in length between the .38 special case and a .357 case) grabs a lot of .38 special brass when folks shoot a 357 chambered rifle (as almost all the 73 Uberti's are). Expand the case as much as you can and still get it into the chamber.

 

Good luck, GJ

+1.

[Will Lynchem]

Garrison Joe, The tip of some bronze wool on a cleaning brush with some toothpaste is a great idea! I'll keep that one in mind for future use. What are your thoughts on doing the same thing using say an 800 grit lapping compound?

[Oklahoma Dee]

I had the same problem as Dang It Dan, after messing with it, cleaning, shooting slow, shooting fast, shooting only star-line brass, the only one thing that worked, is I changed from lead bullets with a crimp groove, to a Precision lead bullet that has no crimp groove and Blam....no more problems.

 

If your shooting lead with a crimp groove, is the crimp groove exposed? If so, you might try a a shorter OAL, to cover it up or get the brass to dovetail into the crimp groove.

 

Just a thought, Good luck

OkDee

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

Hi HD,

I had a 66 that did that,looked for all sorts of things???

Ended up being the simplest of things, something you've probably overlooked because it works otherwise,......the EXTRACTOR?

Replaced it, problem gone.

Also make sure it is the right one, there is a difference between large and small cal extractors.

[Captain Clark]

I had a similar problem with mine , I had just replaced the firing pin and had too much protrusion which seemed to cause it to stick once in awhile. I suspect that the firing pin was causing it to wedge the rim between the pin and extractor, fitted the pin for proper protrusion problem went away..

My shooting pard started having almost the same problem as the OP a little over a year ago and was at his wits end.... { he doesn't have many wits to begin with}! Upon shooting his rifle, I immediately detected the occasional hang up, much like Garrison Joe describes when the case FIRST starts to pull back out of the chamber. This particular rifles firing pin ended up being the culprit, the tip was rough and chipped and actually hanging in the bolt bore and the primer after striking which then caused a bind between the case and bolt / chamber ...etc. Although it was chipped, it always fired so of course it wasn't a suspect at first. I fixed that rifle with a new Pioneer pin and spring that day and its worked ever since! My guess would be 3,000 plus rounds of 45 Colt since replacement!

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Thanks for all the tips everyone. I took it out to the range tonight to try a few things. To answer a few questions; the lower tab looks good, there's very little play in the fitment of the bolt, no hiccups in the toggles. I can't seem to find my firing pin protusion checker-mcthingy (I think thats the offical name of the tool...), so that will have to wait. Off to the range we went.

 

first, I cleaned the bore well. Then I put 50 rounds of factory ammo through it, no problem. not a single hiccup.

 

cracked open a box or reloads and shot the rifle right along side another rifle usin ammo out of the same box. almost immediatled the rifle with the issue started giving me trouble. I'd go 4-5 shots then get a sticky piece of brass. The brass is sticky from the moment the extractor tries to pull it out. The other rifle had zero problems.

 

So, with the sticky brass in the chamber, I used a pick and lift the extractor off the rim of the case. Magically, the bolt is free and works smooth as butter as long as it doesn't have to extract the brass. Using the pick the brass starts to extract easily. I don't extract it all the way as I want to test some more, but I slid it out at least 1/3 of the length of the brass then slid it back in. I then close the lever letting the extractor ride back over the rim and it's sticky again.

 

once the brass is extracted, you can put it back into the chamber and it extracts fine from then on.

 

So, I thought that maybe I'm not getting a good enough seal with the reloads. I checked the factory brass and it has more soot on the outside of the brass than any of the reloads! Now given, this was pretty cheap factory ammo. American Eagle RN lead 38 special, but it's fairly stout compared to the reloads. At this point, I'm out of ideas.

 

Dee, as far as the crimp, I cast my own usin a Lee 125gr RNFP mold, lube with and an Alox/Wax mix and crimp right in the groove. I'm careful to watch for build up of lube in the seating die and crimp die of the Dillon for exactly the reason you mention.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Hi HD,

I had a 66 that did that,looked for all sorts of things???

Ended up being the simplest of things, something you've probably overlooked because it works otherwise,......the EXTRACTOR?

Replaced it, problem gone.

Also make sure it is the right one, there is a difference between large and small cal extractors.

Hi Jackaroo. so good to hear from you my friend! You and and the missus are going to be terribly missed at land run this year. My little family is so thankfull to hear that you are well on the road to recovery. Let Kat know we hastily await her posts on facebook with updates as to your progress. You are continually in our prayers, my friend.

 

I'll certainly check the extractor, maybe I've got just enough crud under there to allow for some slop.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Garrison Joe, The tip of some bronze wool on a cleaning brush with some toothpaste is a great idea! I'll keep that one in mind for future use. What are your thoughts on doing the same thing using say an 800 grit lapping compound?

 

That lapping compound is going to be a lot more aggressive than toothpaste. You would need to really take it easy and not grind lots of metal off the chamber walls - all you need to do is polish the surface. Toothpaste is a lot cheaper than rebarreling or setting the barrel back a couple of inches.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

That lapping compound is going to be a lot more aggressive than toothpaste. You would need to really take it easy and not grind lots of metal off the chamber walls - all you need to do is polish the surface. Toothpaste is a lot cheaper than rebarreling or setting the barrel back a couple of inches.

 

Good luck, GJ

Agreed, plus who doesn't like a minty-fresh lever action? I will check the chambers a little more closely for roughnes. I picked up a chamber flex hone in 38 caliber mainly for the cylinders of the pistols, but it looks like this might be another good application. for it.

 

Whatever I find and whatever fix that ends up working will be documented with photos and a write up for posterity. Sounds like a number of shooters could use it.

[Lead Monger]

The little cartridge support tab on the bolt may be warn and allowing the case to tip when being extracted.

Swap the bolt with one from another rifle that works and see if the problem goes away.

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

It sounds like an alignment problem more than a dirty chamber. Here are some things I would try.

 

Replace the firing pin spring with a factory strength spring. The firing pin could be sticking in the primer causing a mis alignment.

 

Take out the extractor and make sure that the pin is not bent. A bent pin will make the extractor loose and cause extraction problems.

 

Check the cartridge guide, tab on the bottom of the bolt, to make sure that it is holding the cartridge in the center of the bolt. To do this, drill the primer pocket flash hole in an empty case about 0.100" so you can insert the firing pin into the hole with the pin protruding from the base of the case. With the bolt out of the gun snap the case in a firing position and make sure that the firing pin hole in the bolt lines up with the hole you drilled in the case. If it doesn't you need to repair the tab, the extractor or both.

 

If none of that works, you should make sure that the case is not binding on the carrier in some manner.

 

If the chamber is clean, it has to be binding somewhere.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

If factory ammo runs fine (which you determined to be the case), the problem must be in the reloads. I would suggest running some hotter reloads with same Bullet, etc. Try a different bullet. Maybe try some 158's.

[Lunger]

Why not clean barrel , then slowly run borescope through it. Barrel should look clean and shiny. If you get to the chamber and see the iron is black after a good cleaning, you have carbon fowling! To remove carbon, use a very tight brush and patch combo with jb bore paste. Rinse with kroil, dry, and recheck it. Most reputable gun smiths have a borescope if you don't.

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

I feel your pain..a lot!!

 

I have two rifles. One I have shot for five years with possibly up to 80,000 rounds through it. The other is a new model only a couple of years old. My old rifle does the exact same thing you are describing above. I have literally replaced every moving part in the rifle down to the lever and the hammer with no real change. I have changed powder from Clays to Titegroup to Red Dot with no change. I have moved from lead bullets to coated bullets thinking it was a lead build up issue with no change. I have shipped it to two different smiths besides my local smith who is very knowledgable. It now lives in the safe.

 

Here is the killer......now the newer model is starting to do the same thing. I have been forced to take a cleaning rod when I practice or shoot a match so I can clean the chamber every hundred rounds or so. If I don't, it starts to stick and throws off my timing.

 

If you ever figure out what is causing this please send me a PM. It's so bad I almost want to shoot a Marlin.......almost.

80,00 rounds, I'm envious, I'd like to be able to shoot even half that much in a year. 80,000, that's 1333 rounds a week or 190 a day. How did you manage to shoot that much?

[J-BAR #18287]

Alox is a sticky lube, very easy to over do. Before risking changing mechanical stuff, I would try a batch of cartridges with different lube.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

80,00 rounds, I'm envious, I'd like to be able to shoot even half that much in a year. 80,000, that's 1333 rounds a week or 190 a day. How did you manage to shoot that much?

 

That's simple......I retired.

 

Four years ago I was on the range four to five time per week. I would average 500 rounds per practice session with rifle and pistol. And keep in mind that I have had that particular rifle longer than that. It may be closer to seven or eight years ago. All I really know is that in 2013 I put 50,000 down range between the pistols and the rifle. Last year I fired about 10,000 total. Nothing to lose and nothing to prove. .

[Dang It Dan 13202]

It sounds like an alignment problem more than a dirty chamber. Here are some things I would try.

 

Replace the firing pin spring with a factory strength spring. The firing pin could be sticking in the primer causing a mis alignment.

 

Take out the extractor and make sure that the pin is not bent. A bent pin will make the extractor loose and cause extraction problems.

 

Check the cartridge guide, tab on the bottom of the bolt, to make sure that it is holding the cartridge in the center of the bolt. To do this, drill the primer pocket flash hole in an empty case about 0.100" so you can insert the firing pin into the hole with the pin protruding from the base of the case. With the bolt out of the gun snap the case in a firing position and make sure that the firing pin hole in the bolt lines up with the hole you drilled in the case. If it doesn't you need to repair the tab, the extractor or both.

 

If none of that works, you should make sure that the case is not binding on the carrier in some manner.

 

If the chamber is clean, it has to be binding somewhere.

 

 

Sam,

 

Thanks for the observation but ..........I have actually changed the entire bolt during this process including the firing pin, spring, etc. And it doesn't explain why the rifle runs great for a hundred rounds after I clean it and then starts to stick. If it was the firing pin (assembly) it would do it all the time.

 

I think.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I hope folks find a solution. With What Dan said, that concerns me even more - since he is very thorough and knowledgeable.

 

His replacements would probably eliminate the ammo, the extractor, the breech block, the firing pin and even the bolt.

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/73Carbine.htm

 

So my concern is that the frame could be worn where the bolt slides in it. If that is the case the only solution I know of would be to have a sleeve installed in the frame to restore it to specifications. Something a good machinist could do - if you can find one - and pay them...

[Noz]

A friend had a toggle link rifle that acted similarly. He found that the links were binding the bolt in the "joint" where the bolt and the bolt extension are joined. The bolt was being "lifted" by contact with the links as it was retracted causing a binding. He took a few thousandths off of the offending link and solved the problem.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

And it doesn't explain why the rifle runs great for a hundred rounds after I clean it and then starts to stick. If it was the firing pin (assembly) it would do it all the time.

 

That would be a STRONG reason for me to run a "cleaning case" - that mouth-belled .357 - into the chamber, because it sounds like you might be cleaning the gap between the end of the 38 case (what is being fired) and the end of the 357-sized chamber. Cleaning by hand - good for a hundred rounds. Then problem returns.

 

Get that carbon and lead out of that 0.010" gap, and perhaps cases won't stick in chamber.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Boggus Deal #64218]

 

That would be a STRONG reason for me to run a "cleaning case" - that mouth-belled .357 - into the chamber, because it sounds like you might be cleaning the gap between the end of the 38 case (what is being fired) and the end of the 357-sized chamber. Cleaning by hand - good for a hundred rounds. Then problem returns.

 

Get that carbon and lead out of that 0.010" gap, and perhaps cases won't stick in chamber.

 

Good luck, GJ

Don't you mean 0.10" gap?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Don't you mean 0.10" gap?

What's a zero among friends? Nothing!

[Dang It Dan 13202]

 

That would be a STRONG reason for me to run a "cleaning case" - that mouth-belled .357 - into the chamber, because it sounds like you might be cleaning the gap between the end of the 38 case (what is being fired) and the end of the 357-sized chamber. Cleaning by hand - good for a hundred rounds. Then problem returns.

 

Get that carbon and lead out of that 0.010" gap, and perhaps cases won't stick in chamber.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

A friend had a toggle link rifle that acted similarly. He found that the links were binding the bolt in the "joint" where the bolt and the bolt extension are joined. The bolt was being "lifted" by contact with the links as it was retracted causing a binding. He took a few thousandths off of the offending link and solved the problem.

 

 

I don't want to hijack this thread and I hope the OP gets some info here that he can use. Having said that, as it relates to the two quotes above;

 

I went as far as taking the barrel off the gun so I could see if there was build up in the chamber and also to check to see if the chamber had a groove cut into it where the case ends and bullet begins - nothing. AND, I had Harlan Wolfe replace the bolt and the firing pin extension and replace the bolt with a new one and use an slightly oversize firing pin extension from C&I to stop any upward movement at the joint where the two meet. We compared it to a brand new one and it was actually tighter. We also checked the receiver where the firing pin extension runs to make sure the frame was not worn there - again compared it to a new rifle and there was no difference.

 

The only thing we found was that the chamber was actually out of round. We re-chambered it while we had the barrel off just to cover our bases but it didn't really change anything.

 

The rifle is sitting quietly in my safe because I will not sell it to someone else the way it is. My reputation (such that it is) is worth more than that. If I ever figure this out, I will post it here.

 

Thanks,