Attica Jack #23953 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 While working the unloading table at Michigans Range War. Something happened that just didn't seem right. The shooter finished with the shotgun, collected the rifle and went to the unloading table. When the shooter went to show the shotgun empty, and safe, a empty shotshell was ejected. The shooter cleared pistols, and the rifle, then went over to the timer/range officer to report the situation. The Range officer stated that since the shotgun, never left the shooters hand, it was a no call, but the shooter had left the firing line, with the shotgun in this condition. What do you think? Was a minor safety warranted or not? Someone stated it was a new rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 If the SG was the last firearms fired AND if it never left the shooters hand(s) before ejecting that spent shell, then its a NO CALL. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August West, SASS #45079 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 TO correct. Unloading table IS on the firing line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 As odd as it seems, yup no call. Had the shooter set it down, it would be a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 But the key point is - Was the shotgun laid down at the unloading table before being cleared? Probably 98% of folks coming off that firing line with shotgun used last will lay BOTH the long guns down on the table, then pick first gun to be cleared back off the table. THAT then becomes a Minor Safety for allowing a shotgun with a fired round it in to leave the shooter's hands. The only condition in which the shotgun can be laid down at the unloading table is empty. Yes it's picky. But the recent change that makes it a no call if a long gun is restaged on the line without being OPEN does not relieve the shooter from the requirement that the shotgun has to be EMPTY when it leaves the shooters hands, regardless of the location. If the shooter laid the gun on the unloading table, the gun left his hands with a fired round in it. MSV for that. Good luck,GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 If the SG was the last firearms fired AND if it never left the shooters hand(s) before ejecting that spent shell, then its a NO CALL. ..........Widder +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 So AJ, did he lay SG down first,then ck it? BTW, good for the shooter to self report Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Check out the Pocket R O Card in this link, page 28. http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/RO-I%20Vers%2020_3%20(1).pdf Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attica Jack #23953 Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 From what the responses were, it was a No Call, it just seemed strange. The shooter did not lay the gun down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Shotgun was last gun fired. It was not "re-staged". "When the shooter went to show the shotgun empty, and safe, a empty shotshell was ejected". This implies the shotgun was closed. Otherwise the shooter or someone should have seen the hull. The TO should not have allowed the shooter to leave the firing line with the shotgun closed. And the new rule doesn't allow you to re-stage a long gun closed. Shooters Handbook; Page 22 - line 6. Long guns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointed safely down range. If the action of a long gun closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, not the firing line,show it to be clear to the TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing the long gun to be clear. Appropriate penalties will be applied if the long gun is not clear. No matter how you spin it an MSV was earned. Now if the shooter before letting go of the shotgun pulls the hull out, shows clear, lays shotgun down and then tells the TO, no penalty. Shooters Handbook Page 24 item 17 - Long guns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. A 10- second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence, made “safe,” and then restaged. If the action of a long gun closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question. See RO-I for further clarification. SOme clarification is needed to what actullay happened. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 The problem is your not reading the Whole rule. The first sentence sets the stage for what the rule is referring to. "Discarded" never happened so the rule you are quoting is moot. See safe for movement rule , that is what's in effect since the gun never left his control. Thanks. MW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 From what the responses were, it was a No Call, it just seemed strange. The shooter did not lay the gun down. Thanks for responding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Shotgun was last gun fired. It was not "re-staged". "When the shooter went to show the shotgun empty, and safe, a empty shotshell was ejected". This implies the shotgun was closed. Otherwise the shooter or someone should have seen the hull. The TO should not have allowed the shooter to leave the firing line with the shotgun closed. I would think this would apply: It was stated he did not release SG. RO1 Apndx A Par 11. Safe to move with shotgun IN HAND with hammer down on spent round & action closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Just for the sake of clarity what model SG was this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Just for the sake of clarity what model SG was this??? Just wandering do you think it matters in the call. By the description of ejecting a hull I would say 97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attica Jack #23953 Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 97 Even if it was a no call....it just doesn't seem correct that any shooter can leave the firing line, with an empty shell in a shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 no call, been that way for a long time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Creek Red, SASS # 22854 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 AJ, The firing line is defined as from the loading table to the unloading table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 While working the unloading table at Michigans Range War. Something happened that just didn't seem right. The shooter finished with the shotgun, collected the rifle and went to the unloading table. When the shooter went to show the shotgun empty, and safe, a empty shotshell was ejected. The shooter cleared pistols, and the rifle, then went over to the timer/range officer to report the situation. The Range officer stated that since the shotgun, never left the shooters hand, it was a no call, but the shooter had left the firing line, with the shotgun in this condition. What do you think? Was a minor safety warranted or not? Someone stated it was a new rule. What "new rule"? REF: RO1 P.17 #17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 97 Even if it was a no call....it just doesn't seem correct that any shooter can leave the firing line, with an empty shell in a shotgun. REF: RO1 p.30 "Glossary of Terms" - FIRING LINE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Will some of you PLEASE either READ the RO1 or attend the class before posting on ANY "WtC?" threads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Shotgun was last gun fired. It was not "re-staged". "When the shooter went to show the shotgun empty, and safe, a empty shotshell was ejected". This implies the shotgun was closed. Otherwise the shooter or someone should have seen the hull. Not necessarily...perhaps the shooter did as he was supposed to do and WORKED THE ACTION of the shotgun at the ULT, ejecting an empty hull that failed to eject at the end of the stage & didn't look into the open action before heading to the ULT. The TO should not have allowed the shooter to leave the firing line with the shotgun closed. And the new rule doesn't allow you to re-stage a long gun closed. Actually...it does...but it MUST BE EMPTY. Shooters Handbook; Page 22 - line 6. Long guns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointed safely down range. If the action of a long gun closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, not the firing line,show it to be clear to the TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing the long gun to be clear. Appropriate penalties will be applied if the long gun is not clear. No matter how you spin it an MSV was earned. See previous comment. There was no statement that the shooter left the stage for the ULT with a closed shotgun. Now if the shooter before letting go of the shotgun pulls the hull out, shows clear, lays shotgun down and then tells the TO, no penalty. Shooters Handbook Page 24 item 17 - Long guns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. A 10- second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence, made “safe,” and then restaged. If the action of a long gun closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question. See RO-I for further clarification. SOme clarification is needed to what actullay happened. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Will some of you PLEASE either READ the RO1 or attend the class before posting on ANY "WtC?" threads? You mean...even if you FEEL that something isn't right???? Oh my...we will be bored this winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Will some of you PLEASE either READ the RO1 or attend the class before posting on ANY "WtC?" threads? A very fair statement, However, there are so many unpublished 'clarifications' to a lot of rulings, ,,, meaning, not in any RO-X publication, to about any 'call' that it leaves the shooter or person wanting to make the call in bewilderment. My personal latest, ah-ha moment was this week when I learned that SASS rules allows folks to go down range of an unchecked, restaged LG that's muzzle was point at them,,,,, NO CALL! Find that in RO-x documentation. Just saying,,, and BTW, was discussed in bewilderment at this weekends monthly match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 A very fair statement, However, there are so many unpublished 'clarifications' to a lot of rulings, ,,, meaning, not in any RO-X publication, to about any 'call' that it leaves the shooter or person wanting to make the call in bewilderment. My personal latest, ah-ha moment was this week when I learned that SASS rules allows folks to go down range of an unchecked, restaged LG that's muzzle was point at them,,,,, NO CALL! Find that in RO-x documentation. Just saying,,, and BTW, was discussed in bewilderment at this weekends monthly match. You mean you'd like to see a rule for this?? Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Not referring to EVERY "WtC?" inquiry...but to those majority that ARE covered in the rules (primarily the RO1) "Penalty Overview" pp. 23-26 and the subsequent appendices to that document. I actually have had a class syllabus written up for a seminar on "You Make the Call", part of which was a short discourse on how to utilize the "Control F" and/or SEARCH function in a pdf document to find references to the rules covering specific incidents/questions. It was first offered at EoT a few years ago...with five attendees (from out of country). Only TWO individuals signed up for it the next time it was offered. It has since been shelved for lack of interest. Time constraints regarding TG and ROC meetings at the Convention prevented its being listed with other seminars available at that venue. (along with the corset-cinching class that, from what I was lead to believe, would have had considerable more attendance by interested parties) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 A very fair statement, However, there are so many unpublished 'clarifications' to a lot of rulings, ,,, meaning, not in any RO-X publication, to about any 'call' that it leaves the shooter or person wanting to make the call in bewilderment. My personal latest, ah-ha moment was this week when I learned that SASS rules allows folks to go down range of an unchecked, restaged LG that's muzzle was point at them,,,,, NO CALL! Find that in RO-x documentation. Just saying,,, and BTW, was discussed in bewilderment at this weekends monthly match. Unfortunately, there is no RO3 class available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 You mean you'd like to see a rule for this?? Phantom One of the shooting ranges I frequent has a "rule" regarding individuals going downrange to set or retrieve targets... After the alarm is sounded and the flashing lights are activated, everyone steps back away from the shooting benches and NO ONE HANDLES ANY FIREARMS when anyone is downrange. Static/staged firearms have yet to discharge and cause injury to anyone. It really surprised me that anyone needed to be told that (under threat of ejection from the range). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 You mean you'd like to see a rule for this?? Phantom There should be some official documentation that someone at the match can reference too to verify the call,,,either way,,,,,,rather that say, PWB said so on the Wire. Most people don't read the wire nor know PWB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 We're NOT going to codify every "WtC?" Q&A...especially those that are based on the application of common sense and/or a lack of any contrary regulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Probably 98% of folks coming off that firing line with shotgun used last will lay BOTH the long guns down on the table, then pick first gun to be cleared back off the table. It's funny that's your experience when mine is nearly the exact opposite. Close to 90% of shooters I've seen clear the shootgun before laying it down on the ULT for exactly this reason, then we set it down and clear the rifle before setting it down too if we're strong enough to manipulate the shootgun properly with one hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 We're NOT going to codify every "WtC?" Q&A...especially those that are based on the application of common sense and/or a lack of any contrary regulation. Why Not? And that is part of the problem (written, unwritten and made up rule ),,, I suspect it would be a lot of work for someone,,,,and yes it would be. Just put the official clarification in some official form for reference. For example, it is OK (no penalty), by anyone, to walk in front of the muzzle of a unchecked, horizontal restaged LG when shooter and officials are going down range to complete the course. At the rate of WTC's, the document list would have to be added to weekly. at least quarterly would be nice. Yes, I understand I am barking up the wrong tree. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Why Not? And that is part of the problem (written, unwritten and made up rule ),,, I suspect it would be a lot of work for someone,,,,and yes it would be. Just put the official clarification in some official form for reference. For example, it is OK (no penalty), by anyone, to walk in front of the muzzle of a unchecked, horizontal restaged LG when shooter and officials are going down range to complete the course. ...but don't forget the "P" to the shooter for failure to restage a long gun for safe movement downrange ... as written into the stage instructions...or not. At the rate of WTC's, the document list would have to be added to weekly. at least quarterly would be nice. I've got enough to do keeping up with the Wire (as assigned)...and shooting on most weekends. (in the middle of an ammo replenishment session for my shooting partner & myself) I don't hear anyone volunteering to log all of the Q&A for publication (here or elsewhere). FWIW - The "official" clarifications that were announced at EoT (and at following Regional & State TG meetings) will be "published" to the link on the SASS home page once all of the "what ifs" have been addressed. In the meantime, they HAVE been posted on the Wire forums. Intent is to resurrect the "RO Corner" section of the "Cowboy Chronicle" for additional dispersal of pertinent information...but, as with the Wire, not every member reads that either. It is one of the Territorial Governor functions to pass such notifications (the list of discussion/agenda/clarifications) to their respective club members...it that's not happening, contact your club TG. Yes, I understand I am barking up the wrong tree. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Only the ROC, past and present know how many hours are spent trying to keep things sorted out. It is pretty much a thankless job with it's main reward being a self satisfied feeling that you've done your best to help SASS. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 With the limited info in the original post my comments were based on a SXS. I never thought of a 97 with a hull that hadn't ejected but the action was open. I guess we all react based on what we know. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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