Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Seems to we are just over thinking... Until the gun is cocked, you can move. Once cocked one foot must remain planted Am I on the wrong boat? Hasn't that always been the rule once the gun goes bang, it allows for resetting the pivot foot...just like basketball...otherwise basketball would not be possible. folks don't like this... hence the "Clarification". Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Stan's question is "What is the penalty?" Let's try this....... This is not a new rule or a rule change, it is a clarification to an existing rule. The only thing that has changed is SASS has clarified their intent on when/where/how the existing rule is applied.. The existing rule had a penalty, SDQ for moving with a cocked loaded firearm. Doesn't it stand to reason that the penalty still applies to the rule, That was not changed. I have shot several matches where targets were spread out between point A and point B and had to be engaged along the way but it was always understood, and I have never seen it questioned, that you had to move with the gun in a "safe for Movement" condition, come to a complete stop, shoot, make the gun safe for movement, then move on. I used the 97 Slam fire thing because the argument was being used that as long as one foot was on the ground at the instant the gun went off that you were OK to still be moving. Sorry that I missed the ROC ruling that this was OK. This new clarification from SASS shows that the "one foot planted" was never intended to allow this. To me it is still pretty simple. If you are still moving between positions when you shoot, you have violated the rule and earn a SDQ per the rule as clarified . I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone with any of my post. Happy Trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Stan's question is "What is the penalty?" Let's try this....... This is not a new rule or a rule change, it is a clarification to an existing rule. The only thing that has changed is SASS has clarified their intent on when/where/how the existing rule is applied.. The existing rule had a penalty, SDQ for moving with a cocked loaded firearm. Doesn't it stand to reason that the penalty still applies to the rule, That was not changed. I have shot several matches where targets were spread out between point A and point B and had to be engaged along the way but it was always understood, and I have never seen it questioned, that you had to move with the gun in a "safe for Movement" condition, come to a complete stop, shoot, make the gun safe for movement, then move on. I used the 97 Slam fire thing because the argument was being used that as long as one foot was on the ground at the instant the gun went off that you were OK to still be moving. Sorry that I missed the ROC ruling that this was OK. This new clarification from SASS shows that the "one foot planted" was never intended to allow this. To me it is still pretty simple. If you are still moving between positions when you shoot, you have violated the rule and earn a SDQ per the rule as clarified . I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone with any of my post. Happy Trails. So when the 97 goes "Bang"...can you move???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 So when the 97 goes "Bang"...can you move???? Phantom, I know you didn't ask me that question but between you and me, it appears to me that the answer will be YES. But with others, they might have some 'special time frame' limits required before one of our feet can lift off the ground. And in the eyes of those folks, some will be ready with the SDQ penalty. If a shooter (not me) is moving and decides to load and slam fire the 97, both of their feet can basically be motionless on the ground. Their upper body is moving, but not the feet. BUT, at the instant of ignition, their feet are moving again. Somebody will try to penalize that shooter with a SDQ because they weren't planted 'long enough'. No doubt, this is something that some shooters will have to be cautious of because there will be those who are looking to SDQ the first shooter they 'think' was moving at the moment the action closes with that live round. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Clear as mud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Phantom: Although the 97 shooter has been the style of shooter most associated with shooting and moving, this new 'clarification' can adversely effect the SxS and the 87 shooters who are very proficient in their loading/shooting techniques. I really shouldn't be 'thinking' this early on my day off..... My B'Day is coming up in March and I'm retiring the end of February..... why don't you go ahead and start picking out my BDay present from your gun safe..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Maybe the ROC could make a video showing what's legal and what's not legal?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Maybe the ROC could make a video showing what's legal and what's not legal?? Actually...that's not a bad ideer... And Widder, I've got a Custer Serial Number range SAA in my safe...just taking up room...maybe... Or perhaps you'd like my 95% Black Diamond??? But then again...perhaps my Fully Engraved Colt New Line???? Oh sooo many choices that you are deserving of Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bud #15821 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Stan's question is "What is the penalty?" Let's try this....... This is not a new rule or a rule change, it is a clarification to an existing rule. The only thing that has changed is SASS has clarified their intent on when/where/how the existing rule is applied.. The existing rule had a penalty, SDQ for moving with a cocked loaded firearm. Doesn't it stand to reason that the penalty still applies to the rule, That was not changed. I have shot several matches where targets were spread out between point A and point B and had to be engaged along the way but it was always understood, and I have never seen it questioned, that you had to move with the gun in a "safe for Movement" condition, come to a complete stop, shoot, make the gun safe for movement, then move on. I used the 97 Slam fire thing because the argument was being used that as long as one foot was on the ground at the instant the gun went off that you were OK to still be moving. Sorry that I missed the ROC ruling that this was OK. This new clarification from SASS shows that the "one foot planted" was never intended to allow this. To me it is still pretty simple. If you are still moving between positions when you shoot, you have violated the rule and earn a SDQ per the rule as clarified . I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone with any of my post. Happy Trails. Except you don't have to stop. You can clearly move one foot to adjust stance or balance. Jury is still out as to whether you can still do the "shuffle" in the shooting position given this new clarification. So tell me, if you are allowed to move one, possibly both feet, but you're not allowed to move, how would you define movement? I can see it now: I get up to the line for a stage which calls for engagement of four shotgun targets anywhere between point A and point B. Missouri Marshall is my TO. The buzzer goes off. BB: Am I stopped? MM: Yes! BANG BB: Can I move? MM: Yes! BB: Am I stopped? MM: Yes! BANG BB: Can I move? MM: Yes! BB: Am I stopped? MM: No. BB: What should I do? MM: Stop moving. Well, you know, stop moving, but you can still move one foot. But don't dare move that foot in a way which I might consider to be moving. Can you see how there might be some confusion based upon the current wording of the "clarification"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Seems moving safely from position "A" to position "B" (basketball rule), cocking and shooting as you go is the original penalty for moving with a cocked pistol (SDQ) for the Rule, as the writeup is a Rule clarification. Unless the Stage description specifically provides for shooting while moving safely from position "A" to position "B", then "No Call" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I wonder how many pages this will get to before PWB steps in and tells us we are all wrong. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I wonder how many pages this will get to before PWB steps in and tells us we are all wrong. :-) What do you mean "WE" Kemosabie? (sorri Marshal, I couldn't resist the temptation.) actually, my assumptions on these matters is usually off target about 40 degrees or such. So when some of the other comments are posted, I will gather a better understanding of my present misunderstanding. Than all will be well. Have a good day. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Seems moving safely from position "A" to position "B" (basketball rule), cocking and shooting as you go is the original penalty for moving with a cocked pistol (SDQ) for the Rule, as the writeup is a Rule clarification. Unless the Stage description specifically provides for shooting while moving safely from position "A" to position "B", then "No Call" . But that's not the rule...and hence, the clarification that uses the word "Intent".. And Bud, I woulda DQ'd ya right when you asked me the first question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 What do you mean "WE" Kemosabie? (sorri Marshal, I couldn't resist the temptation.) actually, my assumptions on these matters is usually off target about 40 degrees or such. So when some of the other comments are posted, I will gather a better understanding of my present misunderstanding. Than all will be well. Have a good day. ..........Widder Me, myself and I. All three of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I think we are loosing track of the good news. We are back to not worring about lever/action closing problems. Until we get a true definition of what is, or is not allowed in terms of movement, let's all relax and celebrate the lever/action being back to what was voted on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I think we are loosing track of the good news. We are back to not worring about lever/action closing problems. Until we get a true definition of what is, or is not allowed in terms of movement, let's all relax and celebrate the lever/action being back to what was voted on I agree - the rifle going back to the 2014 rule (before EOT), is wonderful!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I sure hope the Winter Range safety meeting covers this movement issue in detail as well as the open/closed gun rule. I would bet there will be a large number of shooters at WR that never read email or read the Wire. Many clubs are not shooting in the Winter Months and as such it will not be possible for their TGs to cover/deliver these issues and changes in detail to all their shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 I sure hope the Winter Range safety meeting covers this movement issue in detail as well as the open/closed gun rule. I would bet there will be a large number of shooters at WR that never read email or read the Wire. Many clubs are not shooting in the Winter Months and as such it will not be possible for their TGs to cover/deliver these issues and changes in detail to all their shooters. Both will be covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Both will be covered. Will it be understood??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 That would be a good add to the safety video, before each wave. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 If you think it was a movement, it wasn't a movement. ....if you know it was a movement, its a movement. .....I'm ready for the song! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Phantom; Being DQ'ed in the winter in my part of the country is a blessing. Maybe that is why I make more mistakes in the winter. Take care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hi Folks, If the TO is watching the shooter's guns and safely assisting... the counters are watching the targets, who will watch the feet. Not me, unless I'm in the peanut gallery. Then, I would be more likely to be counting shots than watching feet, if I was paying attention that closely. Am I under thinking this or are you overthinking it? Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnathan Silver Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I have two questions: From what date is the new rules considered "acive"?Is there an official website where these rules changes are downloadable?http://www.sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.phpHas not been updated since June, hence my questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I sure hope the Winter Range safety meeting covers this movement issue in detail as well as the open/closed gun rule. I would bet there will be a large number of shooters at WR that never read email or read the Wire. Many clubs are not shooting in the Winter Months and as such it will not be possible for their TGs to cover/deliver these issues and changes in detail to all their shooters. I am currently finishing up the stages for "The Best Shoot By A DAM Site" and this news prompted me to place a vertical long gun stage back into the match. But knowing as I do that many shooters do not read the wire, or attend RO classes or pay attention to discussions; on the stages that have vertical staging/ restaging - I added this directly into the stage description and it will be printed in the shooters book EXACTLY this way. "Per REVISED long gun rule - Any action that is observed to be closed (no matter when or how that occurs); will, at the CONCLUSION of the shooting stage, be cycled by the shooter (and only the shooter) under the direct observation and control of the timer operator. If the action is clear - there is no penalty. If not clear - applicable penalties will be assigned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I actually read this entire thread having been on the road to trade shows for several weeks. (I know all y'all missed me- even A-mo). Thanks for the return to the revised rule of the rule revision on long guns. Bless you all. Like others, I hope that maybe a year or two of glacial action will spit out another rule revision on the revised rule revision that speaks directly to empty hulls/cases as well. As to what I call the "SLAM FIRE WALKING" rule....well, I am practicing it with my hammered double. The few kinks remaining will work out by WR. Using momentum that is timed to transitions must be in any winner's quiver of skills. Seriously, having just spent a week between shows at a 3 gun clinic the whole issue of moving one foot while shooting multiple targets being a penalty question now seems absolutely preposterous. In SASS I've witnessed Bud, JT, 12, Cobra and others engaging multiple S/G targets on the move in cadence with several shots and at no time was there ever any movement that could possibly be construed to be in violation of a basketball traveling rule (i.e- moving only one foot). If you can't do it- don't, but watch a real top shooter sometime. There is no penalty called for if both feet are on the ground when the gun goes "BANG". Sure do wish that I could figure a way to do it with my SXS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Help me out BK I can't find the "SLAM FIRE WALKING" rule in the books anywhere LOL, now their is a Basketball traveling rule that a had a big loop hole in it that has been used to get away with your"SLAM FIRE WALKING" rule , they only clarified what really wasn't allowed to begin with. See you at WR KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 The need and purpose for this "clarifying"somehow escapes me. Is the root of this "clarification" in the fact that SXS shooters cannot mechanically slam-fire on the move like a 97 shooter can.? -- and we need to "level the playing field" ? huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 The need and purpose for this "clarifying"somehow escapes me. Is the root of this "clarification" in the fact that SXS shooters cannot mechanically slam-fire on the move like a 97 shooter can.? -- and we need to "level the playing field" ? huh? Now that would work for me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 . There is no penalty called for if both feet are on the ground when the gun goes "BANG". Sure do wish that I could figure a way to do it with my SXS. Howdy BK, just make sure the SXS goes Ba-Bang All kidding aside, IMHO there is no advantage with the 97 over a SXS for the really good shooters, or even us slow pokes. Just watch folks like Red River Ray, Deuce or Three Cut when there are multiple SG targets between point A---xx----xx----xx---B. BaBang......BaBang.......BaBang Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Howdy BK, just make sure the SXS goes Ba-Bang All kidding aside, IMHO there is no advantage with the 97 over a SXS for the really good shooters, or even us slow pokes. Just watch folks like Red River Ray, Deuce or Three Cut when there are multiple SG targets between point A---xx----xx----xx---B. BaBang......BaBang.......BaBang Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Years ago, Hubby ('97) and a friend (double) went head to head with their SGs at a practice session. Negligible difference in times and went back and forth. My thought is that it is not which gun you use, it is all about how much and well you p-p-practice with the SG of your choice.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 So does engage S1-S4 anywhere between point A and the straw bale mean: A: fire from point A and then run to the straw bale while drawing revolver to complete stage B: stroll or hop and fire on the way to the bale C: Fire half way to the straw bale then proceed to the bale D: run to the bale and blaze away with no additional crazy leg syndrome needed E: something else? All of the "golly bum" of trying to understand this is nearly incredible! If Dr. J bounced the ball, stopped, placed both hands on the ball, and then took off dribbling to the next location a whistle would blow. CAS has been fairly flexible in that you can adjust both feet at some point in the string without penalty. The intentional "can't understand" this is just another area for stage writers to address. If stages are written that you must fire from the bale then no polka music would be required, of course then the "where is to the bale?" Crowd would kick in. Having to cover all of the what ifs in stage writing is getting to be a PITA!! Along with the posse walk thru... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Howdy BK, just make sure the SXS goes Ba-Bang All kidding aside, IMHO there is no advantage with the 97 over a SXS for the really good shooters, or even us slow pokes. Just watch folks like Red River Ray, Deuce or Three Cut when there are multiple SG targets between point A---xx----xx----xx---B. BaBang......BaBang.......BaBang Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Well, I assumed all would know, but perhaps I should clarify --- remembering that the issue pertains to shooting between to points while on the move .............. I have observed some very good 97 shooters shoot four between point A and B by: 1) begin running, 2)drop one in the port, 3) land on left foot and slam, 4) land on right foot while ejecting and , 5) drop one in the port and slam when left foot hits again, etc. ........... at the time the gun was closed into full battery and fired, one foot was on the ground and not moving (just like Basketball ) Note: sometimes, maybe take an extra step or two between number 4 and 5 depending on distance etc... but you should get the idea) SXS shotguns simply do not lend themselves to this action as smoothly or quickly as a single loaded and slam fired 97 . This has long been a discussion around many chuck wagons and a pet peeve of some SXS shooters I was just wondering if the origin of the current rule "clarification" might have been peeved SXS shooters and the desire to "level the playing field" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Well, I assumed all would know, but perhaps I should clarify --- remembering that the issue pertains to shooting between to points while on the move .............. I have observed some very good 97 shooters shoot four between point A and B by: 1) begin running, 2)drop one in the port, 3) land on left foot and slam, 4) land on right foot while ejecting and , 5) drop one in the port and slam when left foot hits again, etc. ........... at the time the gun was closed into full battery and fired, one foot was on the ground and not moving (just like Basketball ) Note: sometimes, maybe take an extra step or two between number 4 and 5 depending on distance etc... but you should get the idea) SXS shotguns simply do not lend themselves to this action as smoothly or quickly as a single loaded and slam fired 97 . This has long been a discussion around many chuck wagons and a pet peeve of some SXS shooters I was just wondering if the origin of the current rule "clarification" might have been peeved SXS shooters and the desire to "level the playing field" That was never a factor in any of the discussions I've attended. The original "opinion" allowing slam firing a '97 on the move was negated at that match by one of the MDs when he heard that a legitimate application of the "basketball traveling rule" (as defined by SASS; not the NBA) would allow doing so. The stage instructions were modified to prevent that action on that particular stage at that match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 No I don't think that was anywhere near the bulk of the issue. As long as the stage writer keeps the distances between A and B to a reasonable distance either shooter will arrive at the destination around the same time. It can certainly tip to the 97 if it's long travel. There is time for the double shooters to move as they load the first pair of shells while moving and decide where they are going to snap it shut and fire the first two, then there's time for another couple of steps during the shuck and reload. If 5 or 6 steps will get you to the next position it all comes out even in the wash. Put only 4 shotgun up over 30' of movement and it starts to get one sided. Putting more targets up like 6 or 8 will start to even it again over that same 30' since you spend most of the time shooting. The 97 guy will take one big step between shots, the double shooter will take two quick steps during reload. If you have very long movement and only a few targets the pauses the double shooter has to insert while firing vs. the 97 guy who is still in motion add up quick because the double guy has to get his body moving again. It's the same kind of time loss for a double shooter as they experience when shooting odd numbers of targets against a 97. Stage design can control it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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