PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 So the way it reads "barrels pointed safely downrange" means no more restaging long guns vertically? If so, yeehaa!!! That is NOT what that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I like the 'clarification' 😝 of the open and empty rule. We'll see what the reception is for the 'clarification' of the moving rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 What is the penalty for violating the clarification noted above? Shooting on the move is disallowed. Stan If you are shooting while moving, you are moving with a cocked loaded firearm = SDQ Seems pretty simple to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 If you are shooting while moving, you are moving with a cocked loaded firearm = SDQ Seems pretty simple to me.I have never moved two feet with a cocked loaded gun yet I have shot while moving which is now disallowed. SO WHAT IS THE PENALTY? Not so simple now is it. Stan - who is well aware of the penalty for moving with a cocked loaded firearm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Thanks ROC and WB for rule clarifications. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I have never moved two feet with a cocked loaded gun yet I have shot while moving which is now disallowed. SO WHAT IS THE PENALTY? Not so simple now is it. Stan - who is well aware of the penalty for moving with a cocked loaded firearm Sure it's simple, it's the folks that try that BS about not moving in the nano second it takes to slam fire a 97 that caused this to be an issue. If you got one foot off the ground you are still moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Sure it's simple, it's the folks that try that BS about not moving in the nano second it takes to slam fire a 97 that caused this to be an issue. If you got one foot off the ground you are still moving. Well he's got you there........except that rule (#12) says you have to have one foot planted with a cocked gun in hand. So say when you are moving into position to shoot your pistol you can cock and fire the gun with only one foot planted, or in your words, one foot off the ground. That would be legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Well he's got you there........except the rule says you only have to have ONE foot planted i.e. when you are moving into position to shoot your pistol and plant your first foot you are then legal to fire. So, I would have one off the ground. So what do you call that? I hop between shots... Now DID, don't confuse poor Missouri Marshal...sounds like he know what he's talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Sure it's simple, it's the folks that try that BS about not moving in the nano second it takes to slam fire a 97 that caused this to be an issue. If you got one foot off the ground you are still moving. It has nothing to do with that "nano second" it takes to slam fire. It has to do with the RULES. Until this came down you had to keep ONE foot planted when the action was CLOSED (as previously defined by the wild bunch and Roc) and cocked. Buy definition this means THE SECOND FOOT could be moving The explanation was very clear and defined as the basket ball traveling rule Your "implied attitude" about people following the rule AS PRINTED, DEFINED, AND CLARIFIED BY THE R.O.C. Makes as much sense as claiming Michael Jordon was wrong for moving down court with a ball while dribbling it. You may not like the analogy because you don't like people moving while shooting, but the EXACT SAME interpatation of the BAKETBALL RULE (as defined and clarified by PaleWolf and the R.O.C.) holds true in both instances. I freely invite you to go tell Labron James that his moving while dribbling to get an advantage in his game is "BS" because the ball only touches the floor for a "NANO SECOND" In fact I hope you invite me to watch that conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Sure it's simple, it's the folks that try that BS about not moving in the nano second it takes to slam fire a 97 that caused this to be an issue. If you got one foot off the ground you are still moving. Where is this rule about having 2 feet on the ground? And if you can't move both feet after a string has begun then gunfighters are not going to be allowed to move in the middle of a string so pistol strings with 2 shooting positions would have to be shot double duelist. What's the difference? The other day I shot a match where you fired 5 rounds from the rifle and moves to a second position and fired 5 more. Have done that from 3 positions as well. Again what is the difference? Can you tell me what the penalty is for moving during a string but not moving both feet with a cocked loaded firearm? Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I hop between shots... Now DID, don't confuse poor Missouri Marshal...sounds like he know what he's talking about... It's called ROIII, common sense. Everyone knows what it means, just some folks don't agree with it and /or don't like it and are trying to come up with some way around it. That's why we need a guncart to carry the rule books in rather than our pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 It's called ROIII, common sense. Everyone knows what it means, just some folks don't agree with it and /or don't like it and are trying to come up with some way around it. That's why we need a guncart to carry the rule books in rather than our pockets. That's...just...oh heck, I can't say what that is without getting in trouble. You must not get out much to think that "everyone know what it means". oy... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Where is this rule about having 2 feet on the ground? And if you can't move both feet after a string has begun then gunfighters are not going to be allowed to move in the middle of a string so pistol strings with 2 shooting positions would have to be shot double duelist. What's the difference? The other day I shot a match where you fired 5 rounds from the rifle and moves to a second position and fired 5 more. Have done that from 3 positions as well. Again what is the difference? Can you tell me what the penalty is for moving during a string but not moving both feet with a cocked loaded firearm? Stan Conditions safe for movement, hammer down on fired cartridge or empty chamber. That is the difference, moving from position A to position B you are not moving with the firearm cocked unless the action is open. I never said you could not move during a string of fire, only that you can not be moving from one position to the next with a cocked gun/while shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 It's called ROIII, common sense. Everyone knows what it means, just some folks don't agree with it and /or don't like it and are trying to come up with some way around it. That's why we need a guncart to carry the rule books in rather than our pockets. Apparently not "EVERYONE". I humbly BEG you to look up the definition of the "traveling" rule in basketball. After you look it up, please consider That interpatation has been the gold standard defining example of "moving with a loaded firearm" since I joined SASS. It's the same rule that allows basket ball players to run across the court with the ball and maneuver themselves for better shots (hmmm kinda like shooting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 A rule without a penalty is a suggestion. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 delete...... no comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Maybe yyou should re read the clarification The "basketball traveling rule" was originally intended to pertain to a competitor who inadvertently cocks a firearm in a position other than the designated firing position or was moving both feet whilst engaging targets at the firing position. One foot may be moved to adjust stance or correct balance. The Basketball Traveling rule was not intended to relate to multiple movements between shots (e.g. Shooting multiple shots during continuous movement.) I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Happy Trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Maybe yyou should re read the clarification The "basketball traveling rule" was originally intended to pertain to a competitor who inadvertently cocks a firearm in a position other than the designated firing position or was moving both feet whilst engaging targets at the firing position. One foot may be moved to adjust stance or correct balance. The Basketball Traveling rule was not intended to relate to multiple movements between shots (e.g. Shooting multiple shots during continuous movement.) I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Happy Trails. This is the clarification...obviously...but making statements like: "Sure it's simple, it's the folks that try that BS about not moving in the nano second it takes to slam fire a 97 that caused this to be an issue. If you got one foot off the ground you are still moving." shows lake of practical knowledge of what the root cause of the need for the clarification was. Certainly wasn't "Slam firing a 97". Now getting a clarification via statement on the original intent does not mean that those that interpreted the "Basketball" rule differently then your interpretation were not full of...how did you put it?...oh yes, BS...right. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Maybe yyou should re read the clarification The "basketball traveling rule" was originally intended to pertain to a competitor who inadvertently cocks a firearm in a position other than the designated firing position or was moving both feet whilst engaging targets at the firing position. One foot may be moved to adjust stance or correct balance. The Basketball Traveling rule was not intended to relate to multiple movements between shots (e.g. Shooting multiple shots during continuous movement.) I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Happy Trails. I can read. What is the penalty for violating this clarification? Tell me where I can read that. Page 24 from the RO1 22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the basketball traveling rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in a Stage Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in a Match Disqualification. This includes leaving the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm. If a shooter doesn't violate this rule but does move during continuous shooting what is the penalty? Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamley Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I'm taking 6 pages before the end of the Super Bowl I will take the over on that as it is almost 2 pages now. Hamley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Lets see ifn I got this right: LEGAL: I fire 2 rounds thru my 97 and start to walk fast across the stage, My left foot is on the ground (planted and supporting my body movement) and I'm chuckin my next round into the port, and as my right foot touches the ground.....BLAM, I fire the 97. BOTH feet were planted as the round goes off but at that very Nano Second (borrowing the term), I lift my left foot and continue to move. ILLEGAL: same scenerio above EXCEPT as I plant my right foot, my left foot comes off the ground just a Nano Second before I slam my round into the chamber and fire the 97. Where did I violate the 'One Foot Planted' guideline and earn a penalty? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Maybe yyou should re read the clarification The "basketball traveling rule" was originally intended to pertain to a competitor who inadvertently cocks a firearm in a position other than the designated firing position or was moving both feet whilst engaging targets at the firing position. One foot may be moved to adjust stance or correct balance. The Basketball Traveling rule was not intended to relate to multiple movements between shots (e.g. Shooting multiple shots during continuous movement.) I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Happy Trails. Have read the NEW clarification that WASN'T in place until TODAY. Just because they changed the existing clarification does not mean people where wrong for following the EXISTING CLARIFICATION There is nothing to disagree about. The rule was clearly defined one way, and that definition has been reversed. The part where you stepped in it so to speak, is when you claimed that the people who followed the previous clarification (that you appear not to like) wher pulling "BS" for following that rule (and here is the part you keep missing) AS PREVIOUSLY DEFINED None of this is personal, and my opinion doesn't matter, the important part that you keep skipping is it was previously clarified as ALLOWING SLAM FIRING ON THE MOVE as long as you only moved ONE FOOT between shots. Doing something that THE ROC rules as legal is not "pulling BS" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Just askin, when/where did the ROC rule that it was legal? I never got/saw that Clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 It has been stated on various threads on the wire that 1 foot must remain planted for EACH SHOT. The shotgun is what everyone focus on, but until today you could technically lever your rifle, move your left foot, fire the rifle(completing the requirement for safe movement) lever the rifle, move the opposite foot, fire (completing the requirement for safe movement) lever the rifle, and move the first foot again. The same is true of the "slam fire the 97" example you used. The requirement was for 1 foot to stay planted. I could set a round on the carrier, close the gun, pick up my left foot, set it down, pick it back up, set it back down, and pick it up again as long as the right foot never moved, once that shot was fired, the cycle starts again and I was free to move both feet until the firearm had another round in the chamber with the action closed, at wich point one foot had to stay planted until that round was fired You appear to assume that the rule requires BOTH FEET to stay on the ground (this is the "new interpatation") however it only required 1 foot to stay planted This misunderstanding is why I have said multipal times look up the actual definition of the Basket ball traveling rule. Don't read more into the rules than is actually printed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bud #15821 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Maybe yyou should re read the clarification The "basketball traveling rule" was originally intended to pertain to a competitor who inadvertently cocks a firearm in a position other than the designated firing position or was moving both feet whilst engaging targets at the firing position. One foot may be moved to adjust stance or correct balance. The Basketball Traveling rule was not intended to relate to multiple movements between shots (e.g. Shooting multiple shots during continuous movement.) I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Happy Trails. Human motion pretty much dictates either falling or movement of a foot to adjust stance or correct balance, so the distinction between "movement" and "[moving one foot] to adjust stance or correct balance" isn't. The clarification is entirely unnecessary if stages are written well enough that the instructions indicate that all shooting with a particular firearm is to be performed from one position if that is the intention of the stage writer, unless the clarification is attempting to deny stage writers the ability to write stages in which shooting may be performed at any point between two positions (as has been done at many of the state, regional, national, and world championship matches I've attended in the last 15 years). If that latter is the case, in addition to not being clear, it simply adds to the restrictions already placed upon stage writers, like not having the rifle fired last. The primary difference would be that there's a good reason not to have rifles fired last on a stage (for timing purposes). If an exemption is made for stages which explicitly allow shooting between two different positions, then this is truly a meaningless clarification. Put plainly, if the intent is to prohibit stages which allow shooting strings to be initiated and completed between two points and to require that all shooting strings be initiated and completed from the same location, make that the clarification. In addition to being an actual clarification, the use of the term "shooting string" would not create ambiguity in the case of gunfighters engaging stages with pistol strings split by movement. If that is not the intent, this is not a clarification, it is fugazi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Just askin, when/where did the ROC rule that it was legal? I never got/saw that Clarification. A. PWB has stated more than once it was legal and the wire and the TG wire. I can't believe you don't recall that. B. It's written in plain English that moving both feet while cocked and loaded is a SDQ and the moving 1 foot is ok. So if a shooter cocks a pistol and moves their left foot forward and fires before moving their right foot they have not broken the rule. Then if they cock their pistol and moves their right foot forward and fires before moving their left foot they have not broken the rule. PWB even clarified that shuffling both feet while not changing position was ok even though that breaks the basketball rule. The clarification still allows for movement. How much is rather subjective and there is no assigned penalty for it. You cannot give a SDQ because the shooter has not violated the rule with that penalty assigned to it. If a shooter were to do that at your match today what would call? What would the penalty be? How would you justify it? I could give rats butt about being able to do it. For it to make sense requires the proper stage instructions and distance to cover and target placement. All three of those rarely occur together.....AND if it is not allowed I will comply .....happily. The answers I am looking for are for educational purposes because I know I'm going to get asked. TO's should want to know......How far can a shooter legally move? What's the penalty? Stan PS. Everyone keep in mind that the ROC doesn't write the rules. They deal with the aftermath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxicalmf Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, January 17, 2015 - spam Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, January 17, 2015 - spam they are the issues which did not match the perfect thing we have some other ideas take these ideas....... Top Ten classified website Link to comment
Blastmaster Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Kinda on the subject of being able to leave LG empty & action closed w/o penalty. Then what is the penalty if the LG (empty & closed) slips and falls? Per the RO1 book, pg 24 under MSP. Minor Safety Penalties • Open, empty long guns that slip and fall but do not break 170° safety rule or sweep anyone It would have to start out the process of slipping and falling with action Open per the rule. So that rule doesn't apply if the LG was emptied, action closed, then discarded, then slipped and fell. I know, you know, what the intent was but no longer is. I guess that penalty may want to be modified, or not. Perhaps there is another rule that would cover the above situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I'm glad to see the action open/closed is nice and Black and White No grey just the way all rules should be. This travel clarification could take some time to wade through. Good luck, this could go back to the old clarification to be switched to a new clarification to go back to the old new clarification. This after I thought the TG vote went of without any rumbling. lol oh well I'll still go and enjoy this sport have fun and shoot by whatever rules we have. EMN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Frank Norfleet Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I know I will regret posting on a topic that will be pages and pages of endless discussion. But what is wrong with movement? If a shooter chooses to shoot and move let them. If they choose to post up and shoot who cares? Make it the shooter's choice. As long as they don't break the 170 there should be no problem with movement. Do away with the movement rules and let folks shoot. Other groups do! Look at this video. http://youtu.be/9V1k-qSZASI L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I know I will regret posting on a topic that will be pages and pages of endless discussion. But what is wrong with movement? If a shooter chooses to shoot and move let them. If they choose to post up and shoot who cares? Make it the shooter's choice. As long as they don't break the 170 there should be no problem with movement. Do away with the movement rules and let folks shoot. Other groups do! Look at this video. http://youtu.be/9V1k-qSZASI L From way long ago past post on this topic, I believe the people that wanted shooting & movement basically beat it down (by english/lawyering majors) to be allowed so long as the stage description didn't say you couldn't and you keep some part (heel/toe/ flat footed) of one or both of the feet in contact with the ground for a nano second while shooter fired/levering. Basically yes. Think super fast walking,,,, not bongy-bongy running where both feet are off the ground for a nano second. I haven't found any reference on just how long the foot had to be 'planted' or even the word planted in the books. So, it is just up to the stage writers to write into the scenerio,,,, between point A and B,,, engage targets,, 'and yes you can walk-n-shoot.' So, just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I wonder if things will ever move in the direction of a empty case/hull in the gun being a "No Call"? It seems like that would be the next logical step in the progression of this rule... maybe even show clear on the long guns before leaving the stage area for the unloading table where the revolvers would be cleared. Interesting. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I wonder if things will ever move in the direction of a empty case/hull in the gun being a "No Call"? It seems like that would be the next logical step in the progression of this rule... maybe even show clear on the long guns before leaving the stage area for the unloading table where the revolvers would be cleared. Interesting. Snakebite Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 At the TG Summit last week Misty Moonshine promised to take a couple of issues to the WB and try to get an amendment/clarification to those issues. I just got this by email a few minutes ago. Notice on the "lever" rule the words "open and empty" are now gone. The basketball rule has also been clarified. Long guns "closed/open" issue: (from 11th Convention, Dec. 2013) Long guns will be cleared and discarded with barrels pointing safely downrange. If the action of a long gun closes after being cleared then the competitor will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing the long gun to be clear. Appropriate penalties will apply if the long gun is not clear.Shooting on the move: The rules for movement (Basketball Traveling rule) does not relate to shooting on the move . Shooting on the move is expressly disallowed. The "basketball traveling rule" was originally intended to pertain to a competitor who inadvertently cocks a firearm in a position other than the designated firing position or was moving both feet whilst engaging targets at the firing position. One foot may be moved to adjust stance or correct balance. The Basketball Traveling rule was not intended to relate to multiple movements between shots (e.g. Shooting multiple shots during continuous movement.) I think I'm getting dizzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho Coyote' Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Seems to we are just over thinking... Until the gun is cocked, you can move. Once cocked one foot must remain planted Am I on the wrong boat? Hasn't that always been the rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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