Classic cowboy legal knife

[Blackey Cole]

I fail the only knife not legal as one of the five items is the screwkife is that correct? So does a poket knife in a vest pocket qualify and if not why? There is no mention to the knife having to be a sheath knife. How many movies have the cowboy used a pocket knife to cut tobaco or something. Also if a pocket knife is legal would a little pocket knife on the end of the required (if a pocket watch is one of the items, doesn't allow for fobs IAW rules) watch chain legal? If not why?

[Anvil Al #59168]

just a guess.

 

But with CC being a DRESS type category.

 

They want the item to SHOW and be seen.

 

Another reason our rule book keeps getting thicker.

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

The rules specifically states screwknives do not qualify. I've always felt that when the rules say "knife" they mean a belt or sheath knife.

[Grizzly Dave]

The rules specifically states screwknives do not qualify. I've always felt that when the rules say "knife" they mean a belt or sheath knife.

 

Kinda my thinking as well but I'd add that the handle of a big ol' bowie knife sticking up out of your mule ear boots would qualify.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Almost always the rules are interpreted for Classic Cowboy to require a fixed blade knife. Not a folder. Not a hidden knife.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Anvil Al #59168]

 

Kinda my thinking as well but I'd add that the handle of a big ol' bowie knife sticking up out of your mule ear boots would qualify.

 

 

 

Yes. As it can be seen.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I fail the only knife not legal as one of the five items is the screwkife is that correct? So does a poket knife in a vest pocket qualify and if not why?

NO...REF RO2 p.11

There is no mention to the knife having to be a sheath knife. How many movies have the cowboy used a pocket knife to cut tobaco or something.

Also if a pocket knife is legal would a little pocket knife on the end of the required (if a pocket watch is one of the items, doesn't allow for fobs IAW rules) watch chain legal? If not why?

NO...REF RO2 p.11

 

...knife (must be visible; screw knives do NOT qualify),...

Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl regs RO2 p.11

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Does the knife have to have an antler handle? I just got a really nice Buck knife for christmas and thought about using it.

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

As long as the handle is a "natural" material (bone, wood, antler, mother-of-pearl, ivory) it's OK. It should look like what a cowboy in the late 1800's would have carried.

[Blackey Cole]

I missed the must be visible part. So would a folding knife in a belt case if part of it is visible? Seems I'm seen more Cowboys with folding knives than with sheath knives. Now trappers and hunter use sheath knives but they might get in the way of a working cowboy in real life. That's why when a cowboy carried a handgun it was in a cross draw rig from my research it didn't get in the way when he was working like a strong side holster would. I felt it would be the same with the larger knives. I have a nice sheath knife plus several other sheath knives but was watching tv the other day and the cowboy pulled out a folding knife and it got me to thinking I just missed the part about being visiable. I understand the rules and this is a fantasy game and not held to historical fact. It was just something I was wondering about since I'm working on a new rig but keeping my old to switch between depending on what I was wearing, black while in military brown when not type of thing.

 

PWB. Why did they go away from they folding knives just so they could count the items without having to ask to see it like a watch fob?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I missed the must be visible part. So would a folding knife in a belt case if part of it is visible? Seems I'm seen more Cowboys with folding knives than with sheath knives. Now trappers and hunter use sheath knives but they might get in the way of a working cowboy in real life. That's why when a cowboy carried a handgun it was in a cross draw rig from my research it didn't get in the way when he was working like a strong side holster would. I felt it would be the same with the larger knives. I have a nice sheath knife plus several other sheath knives but was watching tv the other day and the cowboy pulled out a folding knife and it got me to thinking I just missed the part about being visiable. I understand the rules and this is a fantasy game and not held to historical fact. It was just something I was wondering about since I'm working on a new rig but keeping my old to switch between depending on what I was wearing, black while in military brown when not type of thing.

 

PWB. Why did they go away from they folding knives just so they could count the items without having to ask to see it like a watch fob?

 

I don't recall that folding pocket knives (carried hidden in a pocket) were EVER considered "legal" as an option for the category...not that a few individuals didn't TRY that (which was the reason for the "must be visible" clarification).

Probably related to the same "minimalist" who wadded up his pocket watch chain with a rubber band in a vest pocket & tried to run THAT past a category inspector.

 

Belt & boot knives are most commonly used to comply with that option.

[Blackey Cole]

That what I figured was the reason for the visiable part no other justification other than preference. But rules are the rules. I'll follow them but not being there in the beginning sometimes the rules just don't come logically sometimes. I'll have my five items or more depending on the weather and season when I shoot cc just glad the Spurs were never mandated like they tried a few years back. I have hard enough time walking without them. If that changes ever I'll were them again.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

With all due respect, why would one wish to participate in a costume category AND then try to do it minimalist style?

 

I am not a huge proponent of the costume categories, but if I were going to play in that manner - I would FULLY embrace the idea of the category

(and I am pretty sure Classic and B-Western were never envisioned as minimalist categories).

And If I wasn't going to fully embrace the category and all of it's components - I would participate in one of the many other categories that do not have required items or costume policing.

[Blastmaster]

- I would participate in one of the many other categories that do not have required items or costume policing

Are the "costume police" the same ones that count misses, P's and other infractions of the SASS rules?

 

Other than that, I agree with the first part of your rant.

[Innocent Bystander SASS #24171]

When the category first began, many balked at the .40 cal or larger and chose to shoot in other categories. That led to some people wanting to shoot the CC category as a way to maybe get a buckle that would not be possible in categories with a lot of shooters.

 

These people wanted to do the "minimalist" thing and wear spurs above their elbows, put their knives and pocket watch chains fully in their pockets, etc. Then the rules committee had to define how the items were to be worn to keep the category honest.

 

Finally, smaller 45 bullets and cases became available so there were more people entering the category so the "advantage" was negated.

 

By the way, most cowboys in the old West didn't wear guns at all while working, their handguns, if they had one, were in the chuck wagon. Same with the rifle.

[Noz]

I got an urge to own and wear a boot knife for a costume accessory a while back. I found, in a flea market, a beautiful little double edged dagger with a six inch or so blade. I passed because the blade was broken off about an inch from the tip.

A few days later I was shooting in a large match and one of the shooters on my posse had a big knife in his boot. I relayed my sad story about the broken knife and he told me I should have bought it.

Why?

He pulled his knife out of his boot and the blade was broken off about 3" from the grip. He said it's just a prop to qualify for CC and the full length blade was too uncomfortable to carry.

[Blackey Cole]

Creeper I wasn't thinking of minimalist I was thinking more accurate. I would wager more Cowboys carried folding knive than sheath knives when working now if they were hunting it would be different as the wheat knife would be stored in the saddle bags until needed to cut meat to cook or skin an animal shot to eat. I understand the rules are what they are and will play by them I just was asking a question.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Creeper I wasn't thinking of minimalist I was thinking more accurate. I would wager more Cowboys carried folding knive than sheath knives when working now if they were hunting it would be different as the wheat knife would be stored in the saddle bags until needed to cut meat to cook or skin an animal shot to eat. I understand the rules are what they are and will play by them I just was asking a question.

First - it is CreeKer - not Creeper, but I have been called much worse.

I wager you are correct - but I also wager pretty much none of them regularly carried two pistols either.

And I am willing to wager, most cowboys were plainly/ poorly dressed and did not come anywhere near having all the "FIVE" items upon their person at all times.

 

IMHO, the category isn't so much about being historically accurate - it is about living up to the "expectation" of what a "Classic" cowboy is supposed to look like.

[Guest Hoss Carpenter, SASS Life 7843]

CreeKer, +1

 

Hoss

[Gawd Awful]

With all due respect, why would one wish to participate in a costume category AND then try to do it minimalist style?

 

I am not a huge proponent of the costume categories, but if I were going to play in that manner - I would FULLY embrace the idea of the category

(and I am pretty sure Classic and B-Western were never envisioned as minimalist categories).

And If I wasn't going to fully embrace the category and all of it's components - I would participate in one of the many other categories that do not have required items or costume policing.

Are you talking smack about that Prarie fairy "tinker bell"?????

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Are you talking smack about that Prarie fairy "tinker bell"?????

Naw - there is a difference between a one time dalliance with something or making a permanent life style choice.

[Blackey Cole]

Sorry dang spell checker as I didn't proof read it and the letters are not next to each other I appologize for my iPads bad sense of spelling.

 

Your correct most didn't owe two revolvers, the main reason they carried the one was to put down a wounded animal or horse if they were thrown and hung up.

 

They did dress fancy when they hit town from my research they were tired of seeing earth tones and went for the flashy patterns and colors. They also went for what we call fry fru drinks from what I've seen.

 

Five items wouldn't be hard for them to come up with they wore Spurs because most of the horses were green broke when they got them from the remuda. They wore chaps to protect their legs from the brush. Suspenders were used to keep their pants up and it was concidered bad taste to have them exposed so that's and more pockets were the reason for the vest that's four the fifth would be the scarf to cover the face in a dust storm, filter sediment ot of drinking water, tie the hat on on a wind storm, use as sling if they hurt their arm, not to mention a bandage. Now the roping cuffs were worn because roping was rough on the shirt sleeves, most might not have a watch I'm not sure of arm garters or anything that's not clothing but if they had a watch it had a fob because anything like a full chain would get snagged and they would lose or break it out on the range. They did want anything that made life harder on them. Anything that would get in the way would be packed in their war bag for we they got to town. It's like they dressed one way on the range but when they hit town it was like they put on something different to show off.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

FIrst it's a knife...not a prop- don't make me pull a full length bowie on ya and make ya show me your sticker. None of the other options will work in the Classic category where any CC worth his lead wouldn't challenge a shooter that is too full of himself to show respect to the category.

 

If you're not willin' then please move on to one of the many (too numerous to mention) redundant categories where you'll be more tolerated. For most of us what you suggest is borderline rude.

 

Probably best not go there.

[J-BAR #18287]

"show respect to the category..."

 

I like that phrase. It may be hard to define exactly, but you know it when you see it. And it can apply to some other categories besides CC.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Simple. SASS should have the Tom Selleck rule;

 

What kind of knife does he carry in Crossfire Trail, Quigley Down Under and Last Stand at Sabre River?

[Dutch Coroner]

I had a conversation with another CC at the NE Regional last fall. He was a member of the posse I was leading. He wears a bolo tie and I told him it was my understanding that bolo ties didn't qualify for CC. He said he never encountered that and where in the rules does it say that?

 

I told him I had asked that question on the Wire before I started shooting CC and the answer was no. He had enough items so it didn't become an issue.

 

So, are bolo ties legal for CC or not?

 

Thanks,

 

Dutch

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I am sitting here reading some of these posts and wondering are these the same members that think the discussions about the B-Western category is a waste of bandwidth?

 

Expectation??????

Respect for the category?????

Tom Selleck (Roy Rogers) ?????

How much of a knife is a knife?????

 

Where could have these ideas have come from?

[Willie Bentfoot]

As a Classic Cowboy for over 2 years I wonder EVERY time this comes up, why does everyone want to nit pick Classic Cowboy requirerments. I dont think I have ever seen a question like.Why cant I carry two Le'mat's and cover both my pistol and shotgun requirements. It may not be in black and white but Classic Cowboy has no requirements for pants either but everyone wears them(well ok there was that one time, sorry Lonewolf shooters. lol). Its pretty plain and simple. If somebody took a black and white picture, do you look like a REAL cowboy? Lets not nit pick colors either. Nothing says a Classic has to be boring looking either but should be cowboy style. Yes I hear crap about my flashy colors but I still dress in the CLASSIC SPIRIT! Most of the Classic Cowboys i know dont come even remotly close to the 5 item minimum, I am often closer to having EVERY required item than I am to the 5. I guess before I get too much further into a rant is, If your not sure its legal. It probably isnt!

 

 

 

NO a bolo is NOT Classic Cowboy, wrong era.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

SHB Pg 15:

• Costuming: Must choose at least five of the requirements listed below. All clothing items

must be worn appropriately during all shooting events and awards ceremonies.

Chaps, Western spurs with spur straps, cuffs, tie or scarf worn loosely around the neck or

with scarf slide, vest, pocket watch with full length chain, jacket, sleeve garters, knife

(screw knives do NOT qualify), botas, leggings, braces; no straw or palm hats allowed.

 

As we are all painfully aware, the claim today is "Well, it doesn't say that I can't....." (insert 'bolo' tie; shamagh, knife handle, etc.) and that's probably allowed at this club or that club for many reasons not the least of which is that clubs are generally in the business of placating customers.

 

But, State, Regional, Nat'l and World events don't have to pander. From what has been my personal observation; from footwear to holster angle to costuming the rule seems to be that if another competitor voices a complaint then the MD has to make a ruling. Increasingly these rulings are beginning to be in favor of the Spirit of the Rules rather than some knothead's attempt to be cute with the rules.

 

I hope that this trend continues.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Many years ago this sport was started with a very simple set of rules. And what wasn't printed in the handbook was covered under "The Cowboy Way".

We have long since strayed away from that Cowboy Way in most areas of cowboy shooting categories. Dressing to the minimum requirements is the norm with many. Much to the chagrin of those that still cling to the ideals that were put forth in most movies. We were suppose to be the "good guys" that tamed the west.

Later two categories were set up to honor specific eras and those ideals. Classic Cowboy to show off the appearance of that American Hero that worked hard and tamed the land prior to the advancement of civilized life and agrarian progress. The other was B-Western, which was to set forth the ideals of the screen cowboy of the middle of the twentieth century Hollywood.

The great majority of those that shoot in these categories adhere to these ideals and do not INFRINGE in any area. Some of the rules have been modified to make things easier or more comfortable for others to participate. (Smooth non-grip enhanced soles were once the rule). We now see shooters dressed in non-traditional COWBOY clothing trying to push the envelope in Classic Cowboy. We see a proliferation of Mexican style clothing in B-Western. Accessories are either hidden from view or faked, just to get by.

And why do this?

It seems that many just want to "sneak" by in a category where they believe they can be competitive because of low participation by the shooters that put the costuming first as the primary motivation. This is more prevalent in B-Western due to a less strict gun and shooting style.

It would greatly improve the Shooters Handbook if a clear and concise ideal or mission statement were to be included at the beginning of the rules of these two categories to guide the shooter and the Match Director in making decisions on what was allowed and what was not.

Half a knife is not a knife. One concho doesn't make something flashy and fancy.

[Blackey Cole]

Brother King was your post directed at me? If so I don't understand it. I ask a question based on research of actual working Cowboys not classic Cowboys. I did ask to change the rules I just over looked part of them by mistake and said so. I shot cc Saturday and shot it with chaps, vest, arm garters, scarf, knife, pocket watch with a double watch chain it was to warm for a jacket on top of the vest and shirt after the first stage, I can't wear Spurs and walk since my accident the other items would have been redundant if I owned them. I carried my pocket knife in the pocket of the vest in addition to my nice sheath knife. My boots wear lace ups given to me by the va for diabetes and without them I would not have made it two stages. If I compete I myPay ask questions about the rules for better understanding but I due respect the game and the category and play with in the rules. Especially since I'm playing for fun since I can not move well enough to be competive any more. I try to shoot clean. That's my goal. But like I was told when starting out by a friend if your shooting clean your shooting too slow. But if I gonna be slow I want it to be clean.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Many years ago this sport was started with a very simple set of rules. And what wasn't printed in the handbook was covered under "The Cowboy Way".

We have long since strayed away from that Cowboy Way in most areas of cowboy shooting categories. Dressing to the minimum requirements is the norm with many. Much to the chagrin of those that still cling to the ideals that were put forth in most movies. We were suppose to be the "good guys" that tamed the west.

Later two categories were set up to honor specific eras and those ideals. Classic Cowboy to show off the appearance of that American Hero that worked hard and tamed the land prior to the advancement of civilized life and agrarian progress. The other was B-Western, which was to set forth the ideals of the screen cowboy of the middle of the twentieth century Hollywood.

The great majority of those that shoot in these categories adhere to these ideals and do not INFRINGE in any area. Some of the rules have been modified to make things easier or more comfortable for others to participate. (Smooth non-grip enhanced soles were once the rule). We now see shooters dressed in non-traditional COWBOY clothing trying to push the envelope in Classic Cowboy. We see a proliferation of Mexican style clothing in B-Western. Accessories are either hidden from view or faked, just to get by.

And why do this?

It seems that many just want to "sneak" by in a category where they believe they can be competitive because of low participation by the shooters that put the costuming first as the primary motivation. This is more prevalent in B-Western due to a less strict gun and shooting style.

It would greatly improve the Shooters Handbook if a clear and concise ideal or mission statement were to be included at the beginning of the rules of these two categories to guide the shooter and the Match Director in making decisions on what was allowed and what was not.

Half a knife is not a knife. One concho doesn't make something flashy and fancy.

+1

 

As Match Director, I am busy preparing to run the posse marshal meeting, announce the safety meeting and taking care of all the last minute details.

I should not have to hand hold grown adults to ensure that they are abiding by the rules and meeting the guidelines of their category.

 

Classic and B-Western are categories for shooters that WANT to show off their accoutrements and attire.

 

If you are CHOOSING to shoot in a category that centers itself around your appearance, attire and equipment - then make the choice to do what you are supposed to do.

IF the reason you are choosing to shoot in a costuming specific category is solely because you think you can enter and win said category; while doing the least possible...

Then just let me know ahead of time, and we will have a pretty little trinket made up just for you.

 

Otherwise - shoot the category; living up to the expectations of the category.

A little honest self assessment prior to deciding your category would go a long way toward alleviating these discussions and debate.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Brother King was your post directed at me? If so I don't understand it. I ask a question based on research of actual working Cowboys not classic Cowboys. I did ask to change the rules I just over looked part of them by mistake and said so. I shot cc Saturday and shot it with chaps, vest, arm garters, scarf, knife, pocket watch with a double watch chain it was to warm for a jacket on top of the vest and shirt after the first stage, I can't wear Spurs and walk since my accident the other items would have been redundant if I owned them. I carried my pocket knife in the pocket of the vest in addition to my nice sheath knife. My boots wear lace ups given to me by the va for diabetes and without them I would not have made it two stages. If I compete I myPay ask questions about the rules for better understanding but I due respect the game and the category and play with in the rules. Especially since I'm playing for fun since I can not move well enough to be competive any more. I try to shoot clean. That's my goal. But like I was told when starting out by a friend if your shooting clean your shooting too slow. But if I gonna be slow I want it to be clean.

 

If you are CHOOSING to shoot in a category that centers itself around your appearance, attire and equipment - then make the choice to do what you are supposed to do.

IF the reason you are choosing to shoot in a costuming specific category is solely because you think you can enter and win said category; while doing the least possible...

Then just let me know ahead of time, and we will have a pretty little trinket made up just for you.

 

Otherwise - shoot the category; living up to the expectations of the category.

A little honest self assessment prior to deciding your category would go a long way toward alleviating these discussions and debate.

Sounds like you have "5" to me, Blackey. Whenever a cowboy shows up "WILLIN" then he has all the support of anyone worth a spit in SASS. Sorry about your disability and I hope however you are able to shoot Classic Cowboy within the rules continues to be your goal. Maybe you'll be the man to beat this year. I hope you have a place on the podium or at least a match performance that makes you smile ear to ear better than you ever thought you could be.

 

Creeker.... I may have some trinkets made up and put them in my cart just to be able to do just that....great idea...and made me smile ear to ear!

[Dutch Coroner]

As a Classic Cowboy for over 2 years I wonder EVERY time this comes up, why does everyone want to nit pick Classic Cowboy requirerments. I dont think I have ever seen a question like.Why cant I carry two Le'mat's and cover both my pistol and shotgun requirements. It may not be in black and white but Classic Cowboy has no requirements for pants either but everyone wears them(well ok there was that one time, sorry Lonewolf shooters. lol). Its pretty plain and simple. If somebody took a black and white picture, do you look like a REAL cowboy? Lets not nit pick colors either. Nothing says a Classic has to be boring looking either but should be cowboy style. Yes I hear crap about my flashy colors but I still dress in the CLASSIC SPIRIT! Most of the Classic Cowboys i know dont come even remotly close to the 5 item minimum, I am often closer to having EVERY required item than I am to the 5. I guess before I get too much further into a rant is, If your not sure its legal. It probably isnt!

 

 

 

NO a bolo is NOT Classic Cowboy, wrong era.

 

Willie,

 

I agree with you about the bolo and your "rant" and, for what its worth, I wear: braces, sleeve garters, vest, pocket watch with chain, cuffs, chaps or leggings and knife. I wear a scarf to the awards but don't shoot with one because I use a bandoleer and it gets in the way.

 

Good shooting,

 

Dutch

[Willie Bentfoot]

 

Willie,

 

I agree with you about the bolo and your "rant" and, for what its worth, I wear: braces, sleeve garters, vest, pocket watch with chain, cuffs, chaps or leggings and knife. I wear a scarf to the awards but don't shoot with one because I use a bandoleer and it gets in the way.

 

Good shooting,

 

Dutch

Dutch,

 

Glad to see you playing in the spirit. I love being a Classic honestly. I wear my chinks and wild rag proudly even in the summer here on the edge of Death Valley.